153 replies to this topic

[baselsayeh]

Sure , the issue should be simply that Winvblock needs to find a partition/volume (where the .vhd resides) and to do so it leverages on standard XP mechanisms (which cannot see a GPT partition, unless a Hybrid MBR is used, which may be not compatible with other OS expactations):

https://git.ipxe.org...778dc66afd219d3

 

IF Winvblock (or another suitable driver) could map the actual physical extents of the partition, *like* - as an example only - IMDISK can do:
http://reboot.pro/to...ge/#entry192170

very likely the issue could be solved.

 

I don't think that Winvblock (or Firadisk) has this feature yet, or if - say - Olof's Arsenal Image mounter can *somehow* be made to "hook" a grub4dos mapping, it is one of the many - I believe - unexplored territories.

 

As a side note and JFYI:
http://reboot.pro/to...gpt-partition/ 

 

Wonko

Just finished installing win xp successfully with paragon driver and with a new achi driver integrated and xp recognized my windows 10 gpt partition

Full Image

 

Just one last thing:

wimb, can you add 50 gb to the list?

Edited by baselsayeh, 15 July 2016 - 07:24 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

Just finished installing win xp successfully with paragon driver and with a new achi driver integrated and xp recognized my windows 10 gpt partition

Good .

I am pretty sure that (if you have the time and will) some details on the procedure you followed and on the actual paragon driver installation would be appreciated.

 

Wonko

[baselsayeh]

Good .

I am pretty sure that (if you have the time and will) some details on the procedure you followed and on the actual paragon driver installation would be appreciated.

 

Wonko

 

Here is some scripts that I've compiled to get it working with xp setup

https://www.dropbox....cripts.zip?dl=1

[Wonko the Sane]

Here is some scripts that I've compiled to get it working with xp setup
https://www.dropbox....cripts.zip?dl=1

 

Good , thanks.

 

Wonko

[Randriambe]

Hi Wimb, your thread is very interesting. I have followed some of the processes mentionned above and finally windows xp installation in vhd disk was successful but when booting I always have to use my usb stick since the grub4dos is inside it. So, my question is: "how to get rid of the usb stick (I wish to get it free). I wanna start my windows xp natively from my hard disk? (The main OS in my laptop is windows 7)" Thanks 

[Wonko the Sane]

So, my question is: "how to get rid of the usb stick (I wish to get it free). I wanna start my windows xp natively from my hard disk? (The main OS in my laptop is windows 7)" Thanks 

 

Add to your internal hard disk a BOOT.INI file, the grldr and the menu.lst, *like* here:

[boot loader]
Timeout=30
default=C:\grldr
[operating systems]
C:\grldr="grub4dos"

http://reboot.pro/to...-results/page-2

 

The (already installed) Windows 7 BOOTMGR will pick the grldr entry from the boot.ini and add it to your choice(s).

 

Wonko

[Randriambe]

Thanks Wonko! After checking the given link and following your tricks, it worked! Unfortunately, having a grub2win installed before the grub4dos on my system, I have to follow a funny labyrinth everytime I wanna chose the xp os at startup. Anyway, your solution is OK 

[Wonko the Sane]

Thanks Wonko! After checking the given link and following your tricks, it worked! Unfortunately, having a grub2win installed before the grub4dos on my system, I have to follow a funny labyrinth everytime I wanna chose the xp os at startup. Anyway, your solution is OK 

Good , if your "main" botmanager is grub2win, from its menu you should be able to chainload directly grub.exe as if it was a Linux kernel.

And you can pass to it directly the directive to chainload the NTLDR (without going through the menu.lst):
http://reboot.pro/to...ldr-from-grub2/

 

But grub2win should be able to also chainload directly NTLDR (at least GRUB2 can):
https://wiki.gentoo....boot_loaders.29

 

Wonko

[Areeb]

I have followed the Instructions as per the post.

When I start the XP Setup , it starts normally.

On the Disk and Partitions page, I can see the Newly Created VHD in the list of Disks, but the Setup says that 

"Windows cannot access this Disk".

What can be the possible reasons ?

[wimb]

I have followed the Instructions as per the post.

When I start the XP Setup , it starts normally.

On the Disk and Partitions page, I can see the Newly Created VHD in the list of Disks, but the Setup says that 

"Windows cannot access this Disk".

What can be the possible reasons ?

 

Where is the VHD located, on USB or on internal HDD ?

 

Read here http://reboot.pro/to...all-xp-in-vhd/

and also post #2 on How to prepare XP Setup ISO file.

 

 

Problems you may have
1. - VHD must be contiguous = unfragmented - Use WinContig to solve such problem.
2. - In case of VHD located on USB then some mobo will give VHD Disk 2048 MB No Access message in Partition Selection dialogue of XP Setup.
In that case reboot and in VHD_XP_Create.exe use Internal Harddisk drive as System Drive where to Create VHD for XP Setup.
It is important to use in that case XP Setup ISO without integrated Wait4UFD driver.

[Areeb]

Where is the VHD located, on USB or on internal HDD ?

 

Read here http://reboot.pro/to...all-xp-in-vhd/

and also post #2 on How to prepare XP Setup ISO file.

 

Yes I Prepared the XP Setup ISO as per the instructions. Previously I didn't integrated DPsBase.exe but I also did that but no effect.

Here is the Snapshot:

 

 

The Location of VHD is the root of C-Drive.

I am on a UEFI-GPT Setup so C-Drive is basically the 6th Partition. (/dev/sda6)

Grub4Dos surely finds this VHD File and I have verified this my pausing the execution of grub4dos and by observing.

[Wonko the Sane]

The Location of VHD is the root of C-Drive.

I am on a UEFI-GPT Setup so C-Drive is basically the 6th Partition. (/dev/sda6)

Grub4Dos surely finds this VHD File and I have verified this my pausing the execution of grub4dos and by observing.

Sure, grub4dos (recent versions) can access GPT partition tables, but the XP won't.

And you are not really-really on UEFI-GPT, but rather in a "mixed mode" UEFI/CSM-GPT, grub4dos won't ever boot without BIOS services.

XP (32 bit) simply knows nothing about GPT:

https://www.microsof...e.mspx?mfr=true

If you really-really need to use that GPT disk, you will need to create a Hybrid MBR (which does have a number of possible strings attached):
http://www.rodsbooks...isk/hybrid.html

 

Wonko

[Areeb]

Sure, grub4dos (recent versions) can access GPT partition tables, but the XP won't.

And you are not really-really on UEFI-GPT, but rather in a "mixed mode" UEFI/CSM-GPT, grub4dos won't ever boot without BIOS services.

XP (32 bit) simply knows nothing about GPT:

https://www.microsof...e.mspx?mfr=true

If you really-really need to use that GPT disk, you will need to create a Hybrid MBR (which does have a number of possible strings attached):
http://www.rodsbooks...isk/hybrid.html

 

Wonko

 

Yes I am using the CSM Mode to start Grub4Dos. I am using UEFI to boot Windows 10 and other OS. 

 

I am using a recent version of Grub4Dos 2016-09-20.

Grub4DOS Successfully maps the VHD (which in MBR-partitioned obviously).

But when the XP Setup loads, I get the Image (shown in above Post) that Setup cannot access this Disk. 

[Wonko the Sane]

Yes I am using the CSM Mode to start Grub4Dos. I am using UEFI to boot Windows 10 and other OS. 
 
I am using a recent version of Grub4Dos 2016-09-20.
Grub4DOS Successfully maps the VHD (which in MBR-partitioned obviously).
But when the XP Setup loads, I get the Image (shown in above Post) that Setup cannot access this Disk.

Well, we can continue with this for a few iterations:
1) grub4dos (in recent versions, like the one you used) understands the GPT partitioning scheme, i.e. can access the volume on which the .vhd is stored just fine
2) XP does NOT (and you can stamp your feet and cry as much as you want but) all XP can see is a HUGE partition with the Partition ID EE (which it knows nothing about), it cannot find the .vhd because it cannot see the volume on which the .vhd resides.
3):

If you really-really need to use that GPT disk, you will need to create a Hybrid MBR (which does have a number of possible strings attached):
http://www.rodsbooks...isk/hybrid.html

 

Or, maybe, you could read on this same thread, starting from around here:
http://reboot.pro/to...n-vhd/?p=199557

Wonko

[virgus]

Hello everybody, very interesting discussion, thanks.

 

Besides VHD boot problems from GPT partitions, I have a question for one detail that I didn't understand:

would an XP 32bit OS install/boot to/from a GPT partition directly with baselsayeh "Paragon drivers" tweak?

 

And even further: having an XP partition "GPT friendly" already with Paragon drivers, would it boot if I clone it onto a GPT hard disk partition?

In case the answer is affirmative what is the Grub4Dos version that is able to do that?

 

Thanks and have a nice day,

V.

[Wonko the Sane]

Hello everybody, very interesting discussion, thanks.

 

Besides VHD boot problems from GPT partitions, I have a question for one detail that I didn't understand:

would an XP 32bit OS install/boot to/from a GPT partition directly with baselsayeh "Paragon drivers" tweak?

 

And even further: having an XP partition "GPT friendly" already with Paragon drivers, would it boot if I clone it onto a GPT hard disk partition?

In case the answer is affirmative what is the Grub4Dos version that is able to do that?

 

Thanks and have a nice day,

V.

 

No, it most probably won't (by itself).

The initial part of the booting is made by NTLDR (which essentially is a real mode mini-OS, think of a very basic DOS), and that simply won't access a GPT partition.

 

BUT - on the other hand - NTLDR (largely, and *like* DOS) works in real mode, so it will (should) actually "trust" something "fed" to it until the switch to protected mode (and thus allow the initial loading of the OS until the switch - and the loading of drivers - happens).

 

So, IN THEORY, it could be possible to work along the lines of the "XP Kansas City Shuffle", the original thread is here:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242

and here is a thread with some additional links and some (unfortunately failed) attempts to extend it's functionalities on different hardware:
http://reboot.pro/to...-ssd-out-there/

http://www.911cd.net...pic=21242&st=60

 

The situation here may be *similar* it should be possible to do a temporary map in grub4dos, just enough to load initially the OS and (hopefully) find a way to have the GPT driver load early enough to complete the loading.

 

And - possibly - the whole thing could be combined with one of the "tricks" seen here:
http://reboot.pro/to...in-bios-to-gpt/

 

You must understand however how anything related to this is - even if maybe possible - on the very border of unexplored land, so your mileage will vary.

 

On the other hand a Hybrid MBR might do just fine.

 

Wonko

 

P.S./Edit: Coincidentally it was just posted on MSFN about  a couple of patches possibly needed for the Paragon GPT loader driver:

http://www.msfn.org/...comment=1131669

[virgus]

Dear Wonko,

thanks for the prompt reply, I feel a little discouraged having read the long thread by Milindsmart and Sha0.

Very interesting indeed, but I'm not skilled enough to even start experimenting (it would take me endless time).

 

Besides the deception, every time I get a reply from you I have to study (and learn) something new

I'm sure someday someone here @ reboot.pro will find a way to boot bios PCs from gpt!

 

Have a nice day,

V.

 

PS I'm trying to understand more about hybrid mbrs. What are the suggested tools under windows to create a gpt/mbr hybrid disk?

Is it really risky as I'm reading here and there?

Edited by virgus, 02 November 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[Wonko the Sane]

Dear Wonko,
thanks for the prompt reply, I feel a little discouraged having read the long thread by Milindsmart and Sha0.
Very interesting indeed, but I'm not skilled enough to even start experimenting (it would take me endless time).
 
Besides the deception, every time I get a reply from you I have to study (and learn) something new
I'm sure someday someone here @ reboot.pro will find a way to boot bios PCs from gpt!
 
Have a nice day,
V.

Will try to, thanks, however trying to make a "XP Kansas City Shuffle" should not be particularly difficult using an "external kicker", and it is documented, the (if needed) addition of the "special" MBR code would be only a "perfectionist touch" to make it completely self-standing.
 

PS I'm trying to understand more about hybrid mbrs. What are the suggested tools under windows to create a gpt/mbr hybrid disk?
Is it really risky as I'm reading here and there?

Naah it is not "dangerous" in itself, the issue(s) only revolve around its compatibility against a number of (dual, triple or however concurringly) booting Operating Systems and - much more than that - the compatibility with tools that you may use to fiddle with the MBR and the partitioning table.

The "reference tool (and documentation) is still GDISK:
http://www.rodsbooks...isk/hybrid.html
but again your actual mileage may vary, the scope of the mentioned thread was (is) to have something that allows a Hybrid MBR WITHOUT having an Hybrid MBR , i.e. allowing to have BIOS bootable GPT disks in such a way that a GPT enabled OS can boot from them nonetheless BUT that will appear (when connected to a "pure" UEFI system) as a "normal" GPT disk.
The "trick"(s):
http://reboot.pro/to...e-9#entry193659
http://reboot.pro/to...able-usb-drive/
http://reboot.pro/to...-11#entry197690

and the "final" method:
http://reboot.pro/to...-14#entry198148
work fine because the supported OS's already "understand" GPT, all in all what they do is simply to load grub4dos, which then can do *anything*.

So - with very little risk - we could have for the XP an added partition entry written "on the fly", and remove it from the partition table afterwards (leaving *only* the 0xEE partition), of course this only applies to BIOS and to <2.2 Tb volume.

In theory, once a volume is mounted, it is mounted, and you can remove from the MBR partition table the pointers to it, UNLESS you fiddle with programs that *need* those pointers, but in the worst case, at the most you would need to re-boot to grub4dos to reset the MBR partition table before booting to "other OS".

But in your specific case, you are attempting to do something different, I believe , i.e. booting an XP (in VHD) residing on a GPT disk through a UEFI (or UEFI/CSM), this is IMHO the point where there may be flaws, as your specific UEFI implementation (ant the way the CSM module is "triggered") may make a difference.

I love standards, there are so many of them , but in the case of UEFI it is a (stupid) non-standard described in over 2200 (badly written, BTW) documentation pages and noone actually fully respects it, not the good Linux guys, not the good MS guys, not the good Apple guys (which I believe invented their own sub-standard ) and SURELY NOT the UEFI/BIOS vendors (or if they do, the actual hardware manufacturers simply love to botch the original implementations by removing options/modifying them), hence the need to do specific experiments.


Wonko

[virgus]

Many thanks Wonko,

I bookmarked all the links and will read them asap.

 

 

But in your specific case, you are attempting to do something different, I believe , i.e. booting an XP (in VHD) residing on a GPT disk through a UEFI (or UEFI/CSM), this is IMHO the point where there may be flaws, as your specific UEFI implementation (ant the way the CSM module is "triggered") may make a difference.

 

I would be happy for now to be able to boot from GPT on a non-UEFI PC (with possibly no hybrid disk as you said).

The VHD boot you described would be great but better I aim one thing at a time, as I'm still not so expert here...

 

A presto,

V.

[wimb]

Download:  VHD_XP_Setup - Version 87

 

False Positive Alerts have been removed by recompiling the code.

 

How to prepare XP Setup Source ? - Prepare XP Setup ISO file with integrated DriverPacks

 

At least you definitely need to Integrate in your XP-ISO file the DriverPack MassStorage with TXT Mode Enabled

 

See http://reboot.pro/to...n-vhd/?p=172481

 

Then use VHD_XP_Create as folllows:

- Select USB 2.0 drive as Boot Drive and Create VHD on internal MBR NTFS drive selected as System Drive

- Boot from USB via F8 menu and select in  Grub4dos menu - Start -  TXT-mode XP Setup and after loading drivers select XPSRC1.vhd

- ReBoot from USB via F8 menu and select in  Grub4dos menu - Continue GUI-mode XP Setup

- ReBoot from USB via F8 menu and select in  Grub4dos menu - Boot  Windows XP from Image

 

- Copy the XP VHD as file XPW1.vhd to your USB MBR NTFS Drive

- Use USB_XP_Fix with default settings to make the VHD compatible for booting XP from USB 2.0

- Boot from USB via F8 menu and select in  Grub4dos menu - XPW1.vhd - WinVBlock FILEDISK

 

You need to  can use the in folder makebt delivered Grub4dos grldr and grldr.mbr version grub4dos-0.4.5c-2013-07-24

 

You need equipment with MBR partitioning that can boot in BIOS mode and supports booting of XP

 

UEFI booting, GPT partitioning, USB 3.0 and new Grub4dos version and modern hardware without drivers for XP will ALL FAIL !!!

[Wonko the Sane]

Good

 

Out of curiosity (once said that if it works, it works and updating to the latest-latest is only needed IF it is needed) what are the specific reasons for that particular grub4dos version?

 

Wonko

[wimb]

 

Out of curiosity (once said that if it works, it works and updating to the latest-latest is only needed IF it is needed) what are the specific reasons for that particular grub4dos version?

 

 

There can be more versions of grub4dos giving succes, but anyway the distributed version grub4dos-0.4.5c-2013-07-24 is tested and working OK,

while latest grub4dos-0.4.6a-2019-03-25 fails for Install of XP in VHD.

 

EDIT: found that the problem of invisible VHD drive is not caused by grub4dos version.

For Install of XP in VHD it is needed to have VHD located on internal MBR NTFS drive and the VHD should initially not be on USB

[steve6375]

Can you report it please?

https://github.com/c...grub4dos/issues

[Wonko the Sane]

Yep, but by "specific reasons" I meant what happens specifically, not a generic "this works", "this other one doesn't" or "fails for install".

 

Wonko

[wimb]

I did some more experiments.

 

The problem is not related to the grub4dos version.

 

The problem is that when the VHD is located on USB, then in XP Setup TXT-mode after loading drivers, then the mapped VHD is not visible as selectable drive for install of XP.

When the VHD is located on internal MBR NTFS drive then the VHD is nicely visible as drive C: for Install of XP.

 

Somehow in my earlier tests, I mixed up effects and has drawn a wrong conclusion ....