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Is there a tutorial on WinXP-bootable ExpressCard SSD out there?


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#1 Asterisk

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 05:26 PM

I got Asus N10 and 48GB bootable ExpressCard SSD, but my netbook's BIOS doesn't see it.

I can start XP installation on it by nLite'ing its controller driver into XP setup, but, of course, netbook won't let me boot off it.

Is it possible to make it work (maybe using HDD to load necessary drivers and switvh to EC SSD for OS load)? Maybe there is a tutorial for it already?

This forum is amazing - so much invaluable info, but being a power user only it's hard to grasp all the things I've never heard of before. Sorry if I posted it in the wrong section.

#2 was_jaclaz

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 09:57 AM

Answer is No/Yes.

No, there isn't any AFAIK specific "full" tutorial. :)

Yes, there are ways. :)

You will need to read this, for a start:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=20314


What you want/need is a "fake signature method" or "XP Kansas City Shuffle", in this thread:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242
and links within it, there is all you need to study to get a solution.

:)

jaclaz

#3 cdob

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 05:43 PM

@Asterisk
That's very experimental. I don't know a tutorial.

Which driver did you add?
Does the driver pack contain a txtsetup.oem?
Is this driver used for ExpressCard Slot or Flash Memory Slot?

How is your ExpressCard connected internally?
Does it use USB or pcmcia drivers?
Open device manager, change view per connection.

Some addional hints:
Registry permissions are set to system at end of textmode setup.
A administrator can't import and read the registry.
One approach lower the permission.
http://www.911cd.net...&...st&p=153943

There is a "XP Kansas City Shuffle" script
http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=56521

Most likely a ExpressCard SSD hasn't been used that way so far.

#4 Asterisk

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 02:29 AM

Which driver did you add?

I nLite'ed this driver (straight from txtsetup.oem), so XP setup would see my EC SSD. I guess its got built in JMicron RAID controller

; ****************************************************************************
; ****************************************************************************
; ** Filename: TxtSetup.OEM
; ****************************************************************************
; ****************************************************************************

[Disks]
disk1 = "J_36X", jraid_f.inf, \
disk2 = "J_36X", jraid_f.inf, \

[Defaults]
scsi = J_I386

;----------- Component Section -----------

[scsi]
J_I386 = "RAID/AHCI Driver for JMicron JMB36X Controller (x32)"
;J_Amd64 = "RAID/AHCI Driver for JMicron JMB36X Controller (x64)"

;-------------------------------------------

[Files.scsi.J_I386]
driver = disk1, jraid.sys, Jraid
inf = disk1, jraid_f.inf
catalog = disk1, jraid.cat

;-------------------------------------------

[Files.scsi.J_Amd64]
driver = disk2, jraid.sys, Jraid
inf = disk2, jraid_f.inf
catalog = disk2, jraid.cat

;-------------------------------------------

[Config.Jraid]
value = parameters\PnpInterface,5,REG_DWORD,1

;--------------------------------------------

[HardwareIds.scsi.J_I386]
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2360&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2361&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2363&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2366&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2360&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2361&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2363&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2366&CC_0106", "Jraid"

[HardwareIds.scsi.J_Amd64]
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2360&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2361&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2363&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2366&CC_0104", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2360&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2361&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2363&CC_0106", "Jraid"
id = "PCI\VEN_197B&DEV_2366&CC_0106", "Jraid"


Does the driver pack contain a txtsetup.oem?
Is this driver used for ExpressCard Slot or Flash Memory Slot?

ExpressCard SSD

How is your ExpressCard connected internally?

It's PCI-e most likely. Definately not USB 'cause it would get detected as USB drive during POST.

Does it use USB or pcmcia drivers?

The only driver I had to install to make XP see EC SSD was that JMicron controller driver during XP installation.

Open device manager, change view per connection.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Thanks for the links jaclaz. I'm researching 'em. I have a strange feeling that it might be easier than I think or impossible at all.

#5 cdob

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 04:12 PM

XP setup would see my EC SSD. I guess its got built in JMicron RAID controller

Yes, that's likely.

PhotoFast does use JMicron controllers. Another example
http://gadgets.softp...ce-3185-01.html

A JMicron 360 is a PCI Express to SATA II Host Controller
http://www.jmicron.c...duct_JMB360.htm

Yes, the ExpressCard SSD card is connected to PCI Express.

Can you verify and run device mangager: View Devices per connection
Which devices and drivers are between PCI bus (pci.sys) and SSD Disk (disk.sys)?

Try the mentioned registry permission setting and the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" script.

#6 Asterisk

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 12:00 AM

I read the whole thread through. Lotsa unknown to me stuff. Like reading language which you know only a few words of.

1. Do I need to add JMicron driver to the USB drivers list?? How?
2. I don't have CD/DVD-ROM on my netbook to start the boot off. Can I substitute it for internal HDD? How?

Posted Image
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What do I start off of? Can somebody walk me through the first steps of what should be done, please?

The idea was to start the boot off HDD to load up needed drivers and switch to EC SSD to load up the rest of the OS. I want to have my XP installed and working off EC SSD, even if it costs me installing it on HDD to be able to boot up the needed drivers. It wouldn't bother me if I had to choose to load EC SSD XP at the start of PC everytime. Am I making sense?

#7 was_jaclaz

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 06:36 PM

I read the whole thread through. Lotsa unknown to me stuff. Like reading language which you know only a few words of.

Sure, unfortunately that a price you have to pay if you choose the red pill.

1. Do I need to add JMicron driver to the USB drivers list?? How?
2. I don't have CD/DVD-ROM on my netbook to start the boot off. Can I substitute it for internal HDD? How?

1. NO, but irrelevant at the moment, we'll later see why.
2. Yes, but irrelevant at the moment, we'll later see why.

What do I start off of? Can somebody walk me through the first steps of what should be done, please?

Not yet, you still miss the overall view of the plot.


The idea was to start the boot off HDD to load up needed drivers and switch to EC SSD to load up the rest of the OS. I want to have my XP installed and working off EC SSD, even if it costs me installing it on HDD to be able to boot up the needed drivers. It wouldn't bother me if I had to choose to load EC SSD XP at the start of PC everytime. Am I making sense?

The idea is allright B)

I want to have my XP installed and working off EC SSD, even if it costs me installing it on HDD to be able to boot up the needed drivers. It wouldn't bother me if I had to choose to load EC SSD XP at the start of PC everytime.

This shows that you haven't fully grasped the concept.

Am I making sense?


Not much. :cheers:


Still, you seem like not having yet got completely (besides the details) the theoretical working of the proposed method, "XP Kansas City Shuffle".

Your BIOS does not support booting from the SSD card. <- this is the base fact

It can probably boot from:
  • internal HD
  • USB bus
and nothing else (we are not considering network or PXE booting for the moment)

The idea is to separate the booting process in two parts:
  • a "kicker" which can be EITHER an external USB device OR an image file on said external USB device OR an image file on internal hard disk
  • the actual device (SSD in your case)

To maybe clear the process:
Normal booting of XP on internal hard disk
BIOS->Internal HD->MBR on HD->Bootsector on HD->NTLDR on HD->BOOT.INI on HD->NTDETECT.COM on HD->Windows from files on HD (usually in C:\WINDOWS\)

Normal booting of XP IF your BIOS supported SSD on the SSD:
BIOS->SSD->MBR on SSD->Bootsector on SSD->NTLDR on SSD->BOOT.INI on SSD->NTDETECT.COM on SSD->Windows from files on SSD (say in D:\WINSSD\)

Proposed method (for booting XP on SSD):
BIOS->Internal HD->MBR on HD->Bootsector on HD->NTLDR on HD->BOOT.INI on HD->grub4dos->menu.lst->mapping of "kicker" image on HD to grub4dos Virtual Disk->NTLDR on VD->BOOT.INI on VD->NTDETECT.COM on VD->INITIAL XP loading from VD->detection of SDD->XP Kansas City Shuffle->rest of windows loaded from SSD (say in D:\WINSSD\)
(the green part may change depending on how grub4dos is installed)

A "kicker" image is, generally speaking, around 50 Mb in size, so it shouldn't take too long to load.

We need to be sure that the above process is clear, as there isn't any previous experience with SSD and definitely NOT with SSD connected to the PCI bus, so it will take a lot of time and patience (and unfortunately failures) before you get there with a working solution.

As often happens in this kind of things, taking the "straight" road from point A to point B will lead you to a quicksand trap. ;)

You need to:
I do know that it is a VERY difficult topic, even on the documented experience, this is why it is vital that you get familiar with the procedure before attempting the "real thing".

:loleverybody:

jaclaz

#8 Asterisk

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Posted 21 September 2009 - 10:46 PM

I think I understand general idea. I just didn't put it right. ENG - second language.

By "having XP installed and working off EC SSD" I meant not literal installation, but all the OS files and folders located on SSD only. Hence the first question to clear up my understanding:

1. I will have to install XP on my HDD to get all the files and folders, right?
2. I will have to copy 'em all over to SSD, right?
3. I can delete them all from HDD (with exception of the ones that are used in booting process), right?

I've dealt with grub4dos alittle when I was making bootable XP setup SD card and bootable Acronis Recovery SD card. Fortunately, my netbook boots off card slot and USB like a dream. Another set of questions:

1. Initial booting from USB is not a must, is it? (it can be HDD all the way)
2. I don't need to create fake HD image, with the same signature as EC SSD myself, I can use somebody's if I edit those signatures, right?
3. If not, why and is there a tutorial on creating it (I've never dealt with VMWare)?
4. Do I use Winhex to edit drives' signatures?

I'm rereading those 3 threads again. Hoping to hear from you again. I won't give up. :loleverybody:

#9 was_jaclaz

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:59 AM

I won't give up. B)


Right attitude. ;)

To try and pinpoint what the logical chain is made of, the known to be working method (USB devices) can be summed up in four points or phases :
  • install an XP "somewhere", Virtual Machine or real hardware
  • make the XP "USB boot" friendly
  • extract some files from it and create the kicker image
  • setup grub4dos to boot the kicker

Point 1. is "normal".
Point 2. is documented for USB thingies (but NOT for your PCI SSD)
Point 3. is documented, but not the easiest thing in the world
Point 4. is documented and relatively easy

SO:
  • you shouldn't have problem with this
  • you will have LOTS of problems (and failed attempts) to get this working
  • this may be a problem, minor, but still a problem
  • this may be an even smaller problem, but still a problem

If you attribute a 0 for failure and 1 for success to each of the above points, the sum of these points must equal 4 (or more :cheers:) in order for the build to be successful.

The approach I was suggesting (getting familiar with the documented USB method) is aimed to have 3 points for sure and leave the uncertainty only to the value attributed to point #2.

:loleverybody:

jaclaz

#10 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:36 PM

[*]make the XP "USB boot" friendly

Point 2. is documented for USB thingies (but NOT for your PCI SSD)

[*]you will have LOTS of problems (and failed attempts) to get this working

I gotta understand this step at least in general terms before I do anything. Can you elaborate?

http://forums.window...oot-t10088.html

#11 was_jaclaz

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:57 PM

I gotta understand this step at least in general terms before I do anything. Can you elaborate?

http://forums.window...oot-t10088.html


There is nothing to "elaborate".

  • Just try following the tutorial and see if it works.
  • If it doesn't loop to 1. after having rechecked the threads on 911CD

Basically, what it is done (I am talking about the USB part, NOT about the "kicker" image now) is that the relevant drivers are set in a "special" Load orderGroup, i.e. from "Base" to "Boot Bus Extender":
;LoadOrderGroup = Base

LoadOrderGroup = Boot Bus Extender
and/or from "Base" to "System Bus Extender"
;LoadOrderGroup = Base

LoadOrderGroup = System Bus Extender
and to BOOT START as opposed to DEMAND START:
;StartType = 3&#59; SERVICE_DEMAND_START

StartType = 0&#59; SERVICE_BOOT_START
and/or from StartType 3 () to StartType 0()
;StartType = 3

StartType = 0

Service startup types are saved in the registry value (DWORD) Start under the corresponding service name. This value can be set to any of the following:

  • 0x0 Boot
  • 0x1 System
  • 0x2 Automatic
  • 0x3 Manual
  • 0x4 Disabled


You will have to do the same with the services that your SSD requires (and doing so while keeping your fingers crossed, which is something that needs an extra effort when typing on a keyboard ;)), but noone knows exactly which services are involved, which settings they have and which ones they need (and not even if additional steps/hacks are needed). :loleverybody:

Then you will have to (WITHOUT knowing whether the changes you made are the right ones) create the "kicker", and try booting from it.

If you are lucky or choose wisely, you might get it working, you know how this kind of things go:
http://www.imdb.com/...t0097576/quotes

Grail Knight: But choose wisely, for while the true Grail will bring you life, the false Grail will take it from you.
....
Grail Knight: You have chosen... wisely. But, beware: the Grail cannot pass beyond the Great Seal, for that is the boundry, and the price, of immortality.
....
Grail Knight: He chose poorly.

;)

;)

jaclaz

#12 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:44 PM

Ok, here's a question and I'd like to know if it's relevant to my situation.

1. I stick in USB thumb drive formatted in NTFS.

2. Run XP setup from SD card and choose that USB TD to install XP on.

3. Setup says:
Setup cannot create the folder \windows
Setup cannot continue until the folder is created

and if I choose EC SSD to install XP on, setup proceeds as usual HDD XP installation (copies files over and restarts)
Only after restart (since there is no JMicron drivers loaded) PC doesn't see EC SSD to finish installation and nothing happens.

I just don't get why I must make the XP "USB boot" friendly in my case...
Don't I just need "kicker" to load up jraid.sys, so EC SSD becomes visible and load the rest of XP off it?..

P.S. Is there "Booting XP off non-standard media for dummies" book out there??

#13 was_jaclaz

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 05:56 PM

P.S. Is there "Booting XP off non-standard media for dummies" book out there??


You called? ;)

You WRITE it! It will be available in 2010!

:loleverybody:

jaclaz

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#14 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:06 PM

I guess this forum isn't for noobs... :loleverybody:
Sorry for bother.

#15 cdob

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:13 PM

I'm confused, back to first post

I can start XP installation on it by nLite'ing its controller driver into XP setup, but, of course, netbook won't let me boot off it.

Can you clarify: did you actually do this?
Did windows setup copy a lot of files to SSD card?

How do you install XP so far?
Which boot device do you use?

#16 was_jaclaz

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 06:38 PM

I just don't get why I must make the XP "USB boot" friendly in my case...

You don't have to, rest assured, it was a way to make you familiar with the idea.

Don't I just need "kicker" to load up jraid.sys, so EC SSD becomes visible and load the rest of XP off it?..

Yes and No, this is the point where I seem not able to explain the matter:
  • the "kicker" is "derived" from the already installed XP
  • the Registry on the kicker needs to be the "same" Registry (actually have the same contents) of the installed XP, at least for the System hive
  • the normal slipstreaming or installing of the drivers WON'T (probably ;)) make the correct "bootable" settings in the Registry
So you need to fix, as said "blindly" the installed XP in order to be able to "extract" from it the "kicker", but you cannot complete the install as it won't boot from it.
Can you see the CATCH22 in the above sentence? :loleverybody:

Thus you need to:
  • install the XP "somewhere" else
  • tweak it so that once copied/cloned (NOT "installed") on the EC SSD it is "working"
  • extract from it the "kicker"

The above is NOT easy, it's not "n00bish".

My personal suggestion was to try the known methods (even if you need NOT to do so) in order to let you become familiar:
http://thesaurus.ref...browse/familiar

Main Entry: familiar
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: common, well-known
Synonyms: accustomed, commonplace, conventional, customary, domestic, everyday, frequent, garden variety, habitual, homespun, household, humble, informal, intimate, known, matter-of-fact, mundane, native, natural, old hat, ordinary, plain, prosaic, proverbial, recognizable, repeated, routine, simple, stock, unceremonious, unsophisticated, usual, wonted, workaday

Main Entry: familiar
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: knowledgeable
Synonyms: abreast, acquainted, apprised, at home with, au courant, au fait, aware, cognizant, conscious, conversant, grounded, in on, in the know, informed, introduced, kept posted, mindful, no stranger to, plugged in, savvy, tuned in, up on, up*, versant, versed in, well up in, with it

with all the steps involved and with the tools that yu will need to use.

Just like you wouldn't give your Ferrari to your teenager son, and like Authorities won't give him a driving license without a theoretical and practical driving test....."common sense" ;)

You might want to review the "common sense advice" given (for free) together with Rules:
http://www.boot-land...?act=boardrules
(just in case)

;)

jaclaz

#17 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:02 PM

I'm confused, back to first post
Can you clarify: did you actually do this?


I actually did this with and without HDD plugged in.

Did windows setup copy a lot of files to SSD card?

Setup copies 100% of files, initializes something and prompts to restart.

Posted Image
Posted Image

This is what's copied onto EC SSD during first part of XP installation (Program Files folder is there from HDD XP installed progs):

Posted Image

How do you install XP so far?

Off SD-card.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Felt like I was installing it from a usual CD except for the part where I had to start it second time off SD-card. And when I do that this happens:

With this pick (highlighed) my HDD XP loads up.

Posted Image

With this one and the last two:

Posted Image

this screen follows:

Posted Image

I just can't complete installation...

Which boot device do you use?

I use EC SSD to install XP to and select EC SSD XP installation at multi-boot screen (since I have XP installed on my HDD)

Posted Image

If I select EC SSD XP at multi-boot menu (without second part of installation completed) I get this:

Posted Image

#18 cdob

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:42 PM

@Asterisk

I'm confused deeply.

Forum rules has reminded just above last message.
Next answer refers warez. How to proceed?

#19 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 08:50 PM

@Asterisk

I'm confused deeply.

Forum rules has reminded just above last message.
Next answer refers warez. How to proceed?


What warez are you talking about? :loleverybody:

#20 cdob

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 09:08 PM

T*XP

#21 Asterisk

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 10:38 PM

T*XP


Dude, it's a name of my SD-card, 'cause it's only 1GB. :loleverybody:

#22 cdob

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 02:54 AM

Thanks to clarify.

You don't use a default XP installation media, example a USB CDROM drive.
How did you prepare the XP installation media, the SD-card?
Which tool did you used?

My first answer is valid still.
http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=78294

First: fix the registry at SSD card
Boot regular Windwos, add subinacl.exe and run pcmcia_xp_init.cmd
http://www.911cd.net...mp;#entry153943

Create a kicker image next. Use the existing "XP Kansas City Shuffle" script
http://www.boot-land...amp;#entry56521
Try default settings.

Insert your XP installation media.
Add kicker image to a bootable device, this maybe your XP installation media too.
Boot the kicker image.

Does Windows Installation continue?

#23 Asterisk

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 03:39 AM

Thank you good sir!

I used WinSetupFromUSB v.0.2.3 to convert CD XP setup to SD-card.
This is the tutorial I followed:
http://myeeeguides.w...sb-flash-drive/

Now that makes total sense to me. Time to experiment!..

#24 guustf

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 06:42 PM

*PUSH*

I've searched whole web, but there seems to be no working solution for ExpressCard SSD (PCIe). I've a SxS-Pro-Card from Sony/SanDisk, it's high quality SLC-Flash normally used for digital camcorder. Inside Windows (only with special driver) it has up to 100 MB/s reading.

All my attempts to install XP Pro on the SSD not worked, cause XP Installer not find the card (nlighting xp-sony-driver + hitachi microdrive filter driver *inside xp the card becomes with the second "fixed" *).

Also I cannot use SanDisk fixing tool (for 'removal' to 'fixed' state cause the card is on PCIe, not IDE/SATA.

On Bios - thinkpad t60 - theres no possibility to boot from PCIe.

In XP I can make Low-level-Formating with tool "activekilldisk". HP USB Storage Tool not working for PCIe, only shows USB-Devices. BartPE Formater works but shows an error writing mbr on card.


=> So the properly "Shuffle Kansas City"-way is also maybe not working cause XP sees the card only in running mode with the fucking sony-driver. I've read about mac-user you've installed MacOS on this card. Maybe the sony-driver must be modified to work with XP installer and - then - also with XP Bootloader. Any Idea?

I think using high-quality SLC-Flash on notebooks via PCIe is a intelligent solution for total speedup the system and using the SATA-HDD for very cheap storaging...


*PUSH*

#25 guustf

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Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:01 PM

So I'm thinking about an modified XP-Setup-CD which is looking for storage on PCIe-Bus such the early XP-Installing2USB-experiments. Above asterisk make it possible by nlighting controller driver of his ssd. Definitly it has worked cause it was same controller used on some SATA-SSDs. I'm not sure if every ExpressCard SSD has his own controller (specially the SLC-variants)...

So anybody out there with same idea/problem/maybesolution ??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :lol:




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