51 replies to this topic

[cdob]

Try Windows Embedded Standard 7 USB drivers.

http://reboot.pro/68...125#entry137988
http://reboot.pro/14..._25#entry140022
http://reboot.pro/91...150#entry148398

[Michele13]

I don't know how to install this driver in my winpe can you help me?
I don't know how to integrate this driver with Dism

[Michele13]

OK I menaged to install them

[blued]

I have a multi-boot USB and Win7PE (nettype-build), boots in 35 secs in some PCs, but around 3 minutes on older PCs. The older machines I believe dont have efficient USB drivers and thats where plop has helped. I believe plop simply uses a better, more up to date USB driver than the older machines bios has. It cut down the boot time to be almost as fast as the new PCs (newer machines dont benefit at all from plop). My boot.wim is 212mb.

[Wonko the Sane]

I have a multi-boot USB and Win7PE (nettype-build), boots in 35 secs in some PCs, but around 3 minutes on older PCs. The older machines I believe dont have efficient USB drivers and thats where plop has helped. I believe plop simply uses a better, more up to date USB driver than the older machines bios has. It cut down the boot time to be almost as fast as the new PCs (newer machines dont benefit at all from plop). My boot.wim is 212mb.

Yes and no.
Some old but not much so machines have USB 2.0 chips/bus BUT their BIOS only boots using either USB 1.1 (much slower) or have a "bad" BIOS driver, as you stated, and in this case PLoP greatly helps, but for really old machines with ONLY the USB 1.1 bus, PLoP can do nothing.



Wonko

[MedEvil]

I just wish, i knew, how so many can have positive results with plop.

I tested it on 18 computers, before giving up on it.
The only positive effect, i can attest to is, that it can boot from addon cards.

For improving the speed of any USB port, it either does not affect it at all or seriously reduces it.
The highest bootspeed ever encountered on a USB 2.0 port with plop, did not even reach USB 1.1 speed under Windows.

The chips used were from Intel, nVidia, VIA and SIS. I think this pretty much covers the whole market.

[Wonko the Sane]

I am sorry for your misadventure, but there is something that still doesn't sound "right":

The highest bootspeed ever encountered on a USB 2.0 port with plop, did not even reach USB 1.1 speed under Windows.

the ratio between THEORETICAL speeds is around 40 i.e. 480 Mbit/s/12 Mbit/s.

We all know that real speed which has to be measured on "real" Mbytes is much lower than theoretical one (and BTW the speed you measure for data transfer with benchmarks and the like is affected by cahching and what not).

And we need to somehow draw a line between "flat files" and RAM (or WIm) booting.

It has been already observed how sorting properly the files (like it used to be done on CD) and the filesystem used on the USB devices may change, even dramatically, booting times on the same machine/same USB stick, Chinadragon provided at the time good experimental results/reports:
http://reboot.pro/to...-for-pe-builds/
as well for XP/2003 builds there is the "chainboot" or "XP Kansas City Shuffle" that proved to be often a good way to speed up boot (I don't think that there is an equivalent approach for Vista or 7 based builds ).

Provided that a given PE 3.x build (blued's example ) with a .wim size of 212 Mb boots in 35 seconds on a "good" PC, and 3 minutes on "bad" PC, the ratio is around 180/35=5.14, very very different from the 40 connected to USB 1.1 vs. USB 2.0.

I guess that until we have at least two "reference" builds one "flat" and one RAMdisk/Wim and we do specific tests with the various options, we won't have any "valid" data about the performance of PLoP compared with "BIOS" access, and I suspect that the peformance would be different between "random access" (flat file boot) and "bulk transfer" (RAM/wim, etc.).


Wonko

[Michele13]

I did some experiments with the various WinPE versions and timed them

WinPE 3.0: 4:35.80
WinPE 3.0 (Plop): 3:05.56
---------------------------------
WinPE 2.0: 6:11.94
WinPE 2.0 (Plop): 4:24.34

WinPE 2.0 (Prep): 6:07.74
WinPE 2.0 (Prep, Plop): 4:04.00

How about it?

 

I menaged to reduce the boot time of Windows PE a LOT!

 

WinPE 3.0 (Plop, Grub4Dos 0.46a): 49 seconds!

 

The newest version of Plop Boot Manager (Installed on MBR) loads Grub4Dos that is installed on the PBR. Grub Loads USB 2.0 Drivers and then chainloads BOOTMGR. The results of this chain of bootloaders is a faster boot process

Attached Files

•  WinPE Boot.zip   4.65MB   21 downloads

[Wonko the Sane]

The newest version of Plop Boot Manager (Installed on MBR) loads Grub4Dos that is installed on the PBR. Grub Loads USB 2.0 Drivers and then chainloads BOOTMGR. The results of this chain of bootloaders is a faster boot process

WHICH USB 2.0 drivers?
The PLoP ones are loaded by PLoP alright , or have you developed a new way using some other drivers?

EXACT details, please .


Wonko

[Michele13]

WHICH USB 2.0 drivers?
The PLoP ones are loaded by PLoP alright , or have you developed a new way using some other drivers?

EXACT details, please .


Wonko

 

Ok, I boot the computer and it boots from USB. On the MBR of the USB Disk there's instslled Plop boot manager, I Press Enter and then Plop boots a custom version of Grub4Dos (it has built-in USB 2.0 Drivers)  which is installed on the Partition Boot Record, Grub shows a message that says that it's loading USB Drivers and then it prompt you to choose the OS to boot (Windows PE in this case). The Windows PE Boot Process is faster now because the computer loads the os using USB 2.0 Drivers instead of using the USB 1.1 ones that are inside the BIOS...Now I explained better?

 

Updated Grub4Dos Download Page

http://code.google.c.../downloads/list

[Wonko the Sane]

Now I explained better? 

No.

The concept of "exact" (as opposed to "generic" or "vague") reference must be difficult to go through.

 

The idea is that what you post contains all the info needed to attempt replicating your success WITHOUT needing to guess anything.

 

WHICH EXACT "custom" version of grub4dos?

A grub4dos release has a version number (example 0.4.5.c) and a release date (example 2013-03-03).

On the generic grub4dos download page there are tens of versions WHICH specific version did you use?

As an example last "featured" one, i.e. the one everyone should use if not for experiment is 

grub4dos-0.4.5c-2013-03-03

Are you using a 0.4.6 (experimental) version? WHICH release specifically?

WHICH EXACT menu.lst are you using? (or is the USB 2.0 driver loading included in the "embedded" menu.lst?

OR is it a completely different (fork) of grub4dos?

 

Wonko

[Michele13]

I was going to write a tutorial about it...I'd like to post a video that shows the boot process of  my flashdrive with WIn PE 3.0 but it's too big, Once I'll compress it I'll show you the proof that it's working. I used:

 

1. grub4dos-0.4.6a-2013-07-24

2. BootICE v1.1.4

3. A WinPE Bootdisk

 

BootICE has a lot of MBR stored inside itself, I used plpbt-5.0.15-test.zip (you don't need to download the plob boot manager as it's already included in BootICE. Then I simply did the following the things showed in the video tutorial that I've attached to this post

[Wonko the Sane]

You see?

By applying some (moderate amount of) torture I managed to wringle out of you the needed information.

 

Never had any doubt that it worked for you, only noone else could have reproduced your results (even without the tutorial) if those pieces of info you now posted were missing.

The grub4dos 0.4.6 "series" is an experimental version and everywhere on this Forum is written to never use an experimental version unless explicitly instructed in that sense, but rather always use the last version marked as "featured" on the download page.

 

What sounds "queer" to me is that there is a need for PLoP if the drivers loaded are from the newish grub4dos....

 

My guess is that PLoP is completely unneeded and that something like (from the grub4dos readme):

Note: Only (FAT16/FAT32/exFAT) file systems are supported.

 

should be specified.

 

Wonko

[MedEvil]

I looked at the changelog for the G4D version. There's no mentioning of a USB driver being added.

[Michele13]

I looked at the changelog for the G4D version. There's no mentioning of a USB driver being added.

 

 USB2.0.png   10.71KB   4 downloads

 

You see?

By applying some (moderate amount of) torture I managed to wringle out of you the needed information.

 

Never had any doubt that it worked for you, only noone else could have reproduced your results (even without the tutorial) if those pieces of info you now posted were missing.

The grub4dos 0.4.6 "series" is an experimental version and everywhere on this Forum is written to never use an experimental version unless explicitly instructed in that sense, but rather always use the last version marked as "featured" on the download page.

 

What sounds "queer" to me is that there is a need for PLoP if the drivers loaded are from the newish grub4dos....

 

My guess is that PLoP is completely unneeded and that something like (from the grub4dos readme):

should be specified.

 

Wonko

 

If I install Grub4Dos to the MBR for strange reasons the USB Drivers are not loaded, but if I chainload Grub4Dos from a PBR it loads drivers without problem I used Plop but I could use UltraISO USB-HDD+ MBR Instead... you don't have to optimize internal structure so you don't have to check the box

 

 part.png   16.92KB   3 downloads

[Wonko the Sane]

I looked at the changelog for the G4D version. There's no mentioning of a USB driver being added.

Look at the readme instead (at the very end of it, meaning that it is last-last addition/change):

 

******************************************************************************
*** About usb2.0 driver ***
******************************************************************************
When the the bios assigned drive No. 00, and the system does not support extended reading,
Drive letter changed from 00 to 80, Wrong CHS parameter will cause USB drives failed to boot.

As a remedy, loading the usb drive to support extended reading, to re-enable USB booting.

The USB drive code is located in the 11-21 sector of grldr.pbr file.

The USB 2.0 driver supports: PCI Device Class 0c/03/20,
namely EHCI (Enhanced Host Controller Interface) devices.

The USB 2.0 driver supports: USB (Universal Serial Bus) Class 08 (Mass Storage devices),
SubClass 06, Protocol 50, that is USB Thumbdrive or Portable External Hard Drives.

Support USB-HDD, USB-cdrom mode.

USB driver code on the back of the PBR sector.
For FAT16/FAT32/exFAT,they in partition LBA(1)/LBA(2)/LBA(24).

PBR boot program will first loading the USB driver into xxx0:0000 (Requires 0x3400 bytes),
and then use the far call.Resident in the top of conventional memory,
USB devices are read and written by intercepting INT 13h.

There is a switch in the PBR offset 0x1fb.
01: When the boot device is recognition as a floppy disk, loading;
02: Unconditional loading;
00: not loading.

When USB driver is loaded, it waits for 5 seconds for user input:
Press s key to load in slow-down mode;
Press Spacebar to skip loading driver;
Loaded by default.
Number of seconds for waiting Offset 17 at waiting for the number of seconds by usb driver settings.

The number of seconds to wait through the usb driver of offset 17 settings.

Speed ??setting through the usb driver of offset 18 settings.
(0=full, 1=full/2, 2=full/4, 3=full/8)

--usb-time=T T The number of seconds to wait
--usb-speed=S S Speed setting

Note: Only (FAT16/FAT32/exFAT) file systems are supported.

Note: USB drives needs to be pre-formatted for getting MBR and BPB parameters.

Tips: 1. Some USB drives are identified as USB 1.x devices under Windows or DOS usbaspi.sys ,
but they will be identified as USB 2.0 devices when loading in slow-down mode.
2. Some USB drives do not be detected when plugging into front panel,
but they will be detected when loading in slow-down mode.
3. Fails to load, press the s key to try.

Update: GRLDR includes usb2.0 drive, loading conditions such as the PBR. By --grldr-usb=I set up.
F2 key Unconditional loading(can be re-set by offset 0x1f9).
--usb-key=K K Scan Code
Example: bootlace --grldr-usb=2 grldr

 

@Michele

Yes, that is what I meant , the driver, see above is seemingly saved in the PBR (and not in the MBR), but my guess is that nothing prevents from installing grub4dos BOTH to the MBR (or use *any* "standard" MBR code) and to the PBR.(i.e. PçoP itself not being actually *needed*)

It is also well possible that by changing *something* in the grldr.mbr it is possible *somehow* to load the USB driver, as said this is very experimental and very scarcely documented/tested.

 

Wonko

[Michele13]

Look at the readme instead (at the very end of it, meaning that it is last-last addition/change):

 

@Michele

Yes, that is what I meant , the driver, see above is seemingly saved in the PBR (and not in the MBR), but my guess is that nothing prevents from installing grub4dos BOTH to the MBR (or use *any* "standard" MBR code) and to the PBR.(i.e. PçoP itself not being actually *needed*)

It is also well possible that by changing *something* in the grldr.mbr it is possible *somehow* to load the USB driver, as said this is very experimental and very scarcely documented/tested.

 

Wonko

 

I think that to install grub to MBR BootICE uses the grbldr.mbr file of grub 0.4.5c instead of the newest version of grub (0.4.6a) so I install Plop to chainload Grub 0.4.6a and that solves the problem

[Wonko the Sane]

I think that to install grub to MBR BootICE uses the grbldr.mbr file of grub 0.4.5c instead of the newest version of grub (0.4.6a) so I install Plop to chainload Grub 0.4.6a and that solves the problem

Well, but that shouldn't make a difference.

I mean the grldr.mbr should be able nonetheless to load a later grldr and anyway you can always use bootlace or similar to install the "right" grldr.mbr.

But in any case AFAICU, you can have a "normal" stick, with a "normal" MBR that simply loads the PBR of the active partition in the partition table and have the grub4dos 0.4.6 installed ONLY to the PBR.

 

Wonko

[Michele13]

AFAICU = As Far As I Can Understand?

[Wonko the Sane]

AFAICU = As Far As I Can Understand?

Yep

 

Wonko

[MedEvil]

So, given the fact, that the USB driver is installed into the PBR exclusivly, one can't create a Boot-CD with this G4D version.
Or did i understand this wrong?

[Wonko the Sane]

So, given the fact, that the USB driver is installed into the PBR exclusivly, one can't create a Boot-CD with this G4D version.
Or did i understand this wrong?

Well, you can always use - I believe - a harddisk emulation image or a "plain" floppy or super-floppy emulation image, and as well I see no particular issue in having a grldr no-emulation image chainloading a grldr inside a floppy or super-floppy image on the "normal" CD filesystem.

 

The biggest limitation, as I see it, is that it seemingly installs to the PBR of a FAT filesystem, which makes it a little more complex to have it on an internal hard disk (nowadays very often all NTFS or Ext2/3/4), but again there are no issue in chainloading a (smallish) disk or drive image residing on NTFS.

 

The issue is more likely if you are talking of a USB connected CD/DVD drive, since:

 

The USB 2.0 driver supports: USB (Universal Serial Bus) Class 08 (Mass Storage devices),
SubClass 06, Protocol 50, that is USB Thumbdrive or Portable External Hard Drives.

 

such a device is NOT a 08/06/50 device.

 

PLoP also does NOT support such a CD/DVD USB connected device, if I recall correctly .

 

Wonko

[MedEvil]

No the question geared more towards, creating a Boot-CD which then boots the USB-Stick/HDD. As i have no intention to reformat my boot devices just to test this new driver.

Still, completely forgot that there is also a HDD emulation option.
Shame on me!

What's the easiest way to create a HDD image with G4D, which can load a wim from an USB-Stick / HDD?

Babysteps please! This is the first time i use G4D.

[Wonko the Sane]

Well, the whole point I was trying to make is that you don't need a CD at all and not even a hard disk image.

 

You can seemingly use a common superfloppy image (through the use of IMDISK or similar), if you make it 32 Mb or bigger it will automatically be FAT16 (if you choose FAT when formatting it).

 

Try installing the grub4dos to the superfloppy image's PBR with bootlace, adding to it the USB drivers, add to your BOOT.INI (if any, i.e. if you are running a NT up to 2003 OS) a line:

C:\grldr="grub4dos"

Or, if you are running a Vista  or later make a "whole" BOOT.INI such as:

 

[boot loader]
Timeout=30
default=c:\grldr
[operating systems]
c:\grldr="grub4dos"

 

Add to the root the file grldr and the floppy image.

 

You should get to the grldr grub> prompt

At it:

map /whatever.ima (fd0)
map --hook 
root (fd0)
chainloader +1
boot

If you want to make a hard disk image, if you are using an XP or similar, my MBRBATCH cmd:

http://reboot.pro/to...atch-001-alpha/

 is as good as anything else, or you can use the simplified version by oriensol:

http://reboot.pro/to...ard-disk-image/

or the nice tool by TheK:

http://reboot.pro/to...-v0100-release/

 

You will need a virtual disk driver capable of managing hard disk images, right now the easier/better choice (more compatible than VDK) is Total Mounter:

http://reboot.pro/to...l-cddvd-burner/

http://reboot.pro/fi...4-totalmounter/

http://www.kernsafe....talmounter.aspx

 

I presume that BootIce should work alright on a hard disk image mounted with Total Mounter.

 

Wonko

[MedEvil]

Thanks. Will see if i can get it to work tomorrow.