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64bit emulation without hardware virtualization (VT)


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#26 Lancelot

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:44 PM

necessary for pe2 (3?). Are you trying one of these?

Leopard_x64.iso Leopard_x86.iso pe21_x86.iso pe21_x64.iso VistapeCAPI.iso :thumbup:

I change my result with qemu_manager4, :cheers: :smart: :thumbsup:
It is really not my fault, 2ghz is slow for qemu tests AND qemu do not have any indication that shows process continues.
(I feel saydin77 and Peter's unwillingly false reports have same excuse)
:whistling:

I newly build pe21 - x64 iso files and tested again, went to kitchen to take a tea, answered the phone, and when I come back pe21 x64 boots with qemu-x64 :thumbup:

For a long while I am waiting leopard - x64 booting. (patiently, It seems things works) It just get an error screen "autoit3 error allocating memory" (pc: virtual memory is 512) than now I get to desktop.

so far pe21 x64 (plain) boots fine with a little acceptable speed (for my pc)


my "current final" conclusion: qemu is working with pe2/3x64 tests, BUT VERRRRRY slowly. We need to find best available optimized option to see IF we can have acceptable short time results. (ps: and a Pentium4 owner need to test too :thumbup:)

#27 allanf

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 01:26 PM

Qemu Manager 5.0 has both Qemu 0.9.0 and 0.9.1.

With amd64 pe21.iso, 0.9.1 gives me BSOD "Driver_IRQL_Not_Less_Or_Equal", Stop: 0x000000D1.

Maybe related, but a problem for me is Qemu Manager 5.0 does not seem to have an option to select the Video Driver like v. 4.0's windib. This made a big difference. Perhaps because I'm running Qemu on a machine using a Remote Desktop Connection and different screen resolutions. Mouse is always crazy and non-functioning in Virtual Machines (except in VirtualBox), and at the moment with Qemu Manager 5.0, the graphics has gone totally mad!

Nevertheless, when pe21 gets to cmd shell and Qemu window adjusts properly, everything seems to work OK. Boot speed is not too bad.

EDIT: BTW, still using bios.bin "fix" in QM 5.0.

#28 Lancelot

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 03:04 PM

Yes I confirm 0.9.1 gives bsod

no mouse crayz here, and only pe21-x64 boot fine.
btw, I could not figure out to use qmanager 6 for pex64 test.

Well your "final words" are very helpful, and there are lots of combinations to test around, we need more "final words" :thumbsup:

Qemu Manager 5.0 does not seem to have an option to select the Video Driver like v. 4.0's windib.

I can not figure out windib thingy, can you give an instruction.

ps: post #1 rewritten to summarize things going on here :thumbup:

outoftopic:
Something I noticed, this makes some .com files (16bit) works with hostosx64 :whistling:
http://homepage3.nif...sdos/index.html

#29 was_jaclaz

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 03:45 PM

@allanf
IMHO:
  • Qemu Manager v4.0 was great (at the time)
  • Qemu Manager v5.0 was so and so, actually more "so" :thumbup: than "so" :whistling: , if you get what I mean :thumbup:
  • Qemu Manager V6.0 is GREAT! :cheers:

Can't one try to "backport" in Qemu Manager v6.0 the "old" Qemu 0.9? :thumbsup:

Qemu Manager V6.0 has available:
  • Cirrus Logic GD5446
  • Standard VGA Card
  • VMWare SVGA-II

:smart:

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#30 allanf

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 01:02 AM

@allanf
IMHO:

  • Qemu Manager v4.0 was great (at the time)
  • Qemu Manager v5.0 was so and so, actually more "so" :thumbup: than "so" :cheers: , if you get what I mean :thumbup:
  • Qemu Manager V6.0 is GREAT! :smart:

Can't one try to "backport" in Qemu Manager v6.0 the "old" Qemu 0.9? :smart:

Qemu Manager V6.0 has available:
  • Cirrus Logic GD5446
  • Standard VGA Card
  • VMWare SVGA-II

:thumbsup:

jaclaz


I found the option in Qemu Manager 5.0 that stabilises the graphics. It's probably only necessary when using Remote Destop Connection to run Qemu.
Advanced Tab > "Enable SDL output" ... whatever that is? Still crazy mouse though.

I think the objective is to find an emulator to run from the command-line, and use it in a Winbuilder script.

Regarding Qemu Manager 6.0, I tried it and as soon as the x64 .iso tries to load, I got a crash report in XP for the Qemu application - the type of report you can opt to "send" away to MS.

Perhaps there are some combinations of switches/options that would work.

I don't know, but say there are ten (10) switches or options, and that none, all, or any combination can be used. That's a total of 1024 possibile combinations. (see: Fast Food Combinations)

Say it takes five (5) minutes to setup, boot and investigate each one of the possible combinations. (It's a bit slow to boot.) That's a total of 5120 minutes = 85 hours = 3.5 days. Say you only work on it for 12 hours per day, you could complete the task in a week.

Then try each combination with the bos.bin "fix"... another week.

If there were 20 switches/options, it would take 20 years! (1048576 * 5 minutes = 5242880 minutes = 87381 hours = 3640 days = 10 years. For only 12 hours per day = 20 years.)

It'll be some time before I report back! ... :whistling: ... :cheers: ...

#31 was_jaclaz

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:55 AM

I don't know, but say there are ten (10) switches or options, and that none, all, or any combination can be used. ....


Very good, logically organized, mathematically exact and nicely exhaustive approach. But wrong. :thumbsup:

Judge Chamberlain Haller: Mr. Gambini?
Vinny Gambini: Yes, sir?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
Vinny Gambini: Thank you, sir.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Overruled.


I would try a more heuristic approach.

The general idea is to start from a "naked" machine, disable EVERYTHING but the bare minimum.

Give the VM PLENTY of memory.

Use "Standard ACPI PC".

Then you have to choose "only" among three videocards (but the Standard VGA should do) and a few CPU models. It should take far less than what you estimated.

About the Qemu Manager error does it happen ONLY with the x64.iso? :thumbup:

:whistling:

jaclaz

#32 allanf

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 03:59 PM

About the Qemu Manager error does it happen ONLY with the x64.iso? :whistling:


Damn! I was hoping you'd find my maths to be a load of codswallop.

I found what I hoped was a clue: qemu-system-x86_64 crashes when booting from ISO image... "It is true, the -no-kqemu makes it possible to run the VM".

AFAIK, in Qemu Manager the "Disable All Accelerator Support" option is the equivalent of "-no-kqemu".

Firstly, Standard ACPI PCI Based PC, 32-Bit (qemu.exe). No problems with booting x86 pe21.iso. Also loads x64 pe21.iso up to Boot Manager which gives the expected "trying to start a 64-bit application" error. Makes no difference whether -no-kqemu is used or not.

Secondly, Standard PCI Based PC, 64-Bit (qemu-system-x86_64.exe). Gets to "Booting from CD... [140]MB media detected", then the message from XP SP3:

qemu-system-x86_64.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience...


Inconvenience?! Is that supposed to be funny? :thumbsup:

Same result for both x86 and x64 pe21.iso.

Example from Qemu Manager, "Show last run command":
C:\Program Files\QemuManager\qemu\qemu-system-x86_64.exe" -L "C:\Program Files\QemuManager\qemu" -M "pc" -m 512 -cpu "qemu64" -vga std -serial none -parallel none -name "VirtualMachine" -drive file="C:\...\ISO\pe21.iso",index=2,media=cdrom -boot d -net none -startdate 2009-11-12T6:00:00

Oddly, the -no-kqemu switch is not supported by the version of qemu-system-x86_64.exe found in Qemu Manager 6.0. A message pops up immediately on trying to start the Virtual Machine: "invalid option".

Anyway, AFAIK, I have not installed the KQemu accelerators.

It's not looking good.

Regards :thumbup:

#33 was_jaclaz

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:51 PM

I would try the CPU model "Core 2 Duo" or "Phenom". :whistling:

I have no x64 builds available, so I am sorry but I cannot help you in the testing right now. :thumbsup:

jaclaz

#34 SlimShady

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 08:17 PM

I have a 64-bit capable CPU without hardware virtualization. Currently I'm on Windows 7 32-bit.
I'm willing to spend time to test this if you give me instructions.

#35 was_jaclaz

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 08:18 PM

Found one.

Results:
QEMU MANAGER 5
Replace in \qemu\090\:
bios.bin with the BIOS-bochs-latest
qemu-system-x86_64.exe with the one from qemu-master-win32.7z
ADD zlib1.dll from qemu-master-win32.7z

Command:
"C:\qemuman\qemu\090\qemu-system-x86_64.exe" -L "C:\qemuman\qemu\090" -m 512 -cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso" -boot d -net none -localtime -k en-us
Works (sometimes), sometimes gives BSOD 0x0000001E
(the difference is if you enable the mouse by clicking inside the window)

QEMU MANAGER 5
Replace in \qemu\090\:
bios.bin with the BIOS-bochs-latest
qemu-system-x86_64.exe with the one from Qemu Manager 6 (0.10.2 - "custom")
ADD libusb0.dll from Qemu Manager 6 (0.10.2 - "custom")
Command: (as above)

CRASHES with same Error as in Qemu Manager 6
(I presume that the "botched part" is libusb0.dll)


Qemu Manager 6
"parallel install" of the qemu-master-win32.7z in {QM}\qemu115

OVERRIDE ALL SETTINGS -> YES

Command:
"C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115\qemu-system-x86_64.exe" -L "C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115" -m 512 -cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso" -boot d -net none -localtime

Works allright.

With "normal" settings:
"C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115\qemu-system-x86_64.exe" -L "C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115" -M "pc" -m 512 -cpu "qemu64" -vga cirrus -serial vc -parallel vc -name "allanf64" -drive file="D:\Recovery7\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso",index=2,media=cdrom -boot d -net none -localtime
it gives the error.

BUT:

With OVERRIDE ALL SETTINGS -> NO
AND this Command:
-cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso"
added to Optional Launch Data
AND unselecting in the Drives dialog the CD-ROM


The resulting
"C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115\qemu-system-x86_64.exe" -L "C:\qemuman6_64\qemu115" -M "pc" -m 512 -cpu "qemu64" -vga cirrus -serial vc -parallel vc -name "allanf64" -boot d -net none -cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso" -localtime
works again allright-

The problem is evidently in:
-drive file="D:\Recovery7\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso",index=2,media=cdrom
vs:
-cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso"


Qemu Manager 6
"parallel install" of the http://www.bttr-soft...0.10.5-win32.7z in {QM}\qemu105
Needs:
SDL.dll
fmod.dll
zlib1.dll

SAME ERROR of the "0.10.2" that ships with Qemu Manager 6
It's not the BIOS, it's the actual .exe.

Qemu Manager 6
"parallel install" of the qemu-0.11.0-win32-all.7z in {QM}\qemu110
-drive file="D:\Recovery7\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso",index=2,media=cdrom
NOT VALID
-cdrom "D:\\Recovery7\\Windows 7 64-bit Repair Disc.iso"
WORKS but results with a BSOD 0x0000001E

0.10.6 and snapshot qemu-20090908-windows.zip also fail (but do support the "-drive file" syntax), with various errors, an interesting one is this:
C:\qemuman6_64\qemu10x>qemu-system-x86_64.exe

qemu: could not load PC BIOS 'c:\Program Files\Qemu/bios.bin'

So we have a working one (the so-called 0.11.5) that does not support the parameters Qemu Manager uses.
All 0.10.x versions do support those parameters but fail.
As well 0.9.0 works (with the BOCH Bios) but does not support the parameters Qemu Manager uses.

BTW the 0.11.5 doesn't even list the parameters it accepts on command line.

We don't need disambiguation, we need a miracle to get out of this mess. :thumbsup:

:whistling:

jaclaz

#36 Icecube

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:01 PM

0.10.6 and snapshot qemu-20090908-windows.zip also fail (but do support the "-drive file" syntax), with various errors, an interesting one is this:

C:\qemuman6_64\qemu10x>qemu-system-x86_64.exe

qemu: could not load PC BIOS 'c:\Program Files\Qemu/bios.bin'

Add the -bios parameter and specify the correct path to the bios.bin file.

#37 was_jaclaz

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:04 PM

Add the -bios parameter and specify the correct path to the bios.bin file.

Really? :thumbsup: I had not thought of that, I simply copied "bios.bin" to "c:\Program Files\Qemu\". :whistling:

JFYI all the other version look for BIOS.BIN in the same directory where they are run from.


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#38 Icecube

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:24 PM

'c:\Program Files\Qemu/bios.bin'

Maybe the "/" is messing things up.

#39 Lancelot

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:29 PM

I have a 64-bit capable CPU without hardware virtualization. Currently I'm on Windows 7 32-bit.
I'm willing to spend time to test this if you give me instructions.


Hi SlimShady,

64-bit capable CPU==>I guess Core2duo , Well I have Core2duo 2ghz ( EM4400 ) where I get success for both PE1x64 and PE2x64 by using both qemu 0.9.0 and qemu 0.11.5

For the begining, start with this small 0.9.0 package (which seems to get best results) :thumbsup:
http://lancelot.winb...ows_20091209.7z
Check 9Info.txt for instruction

Also keep in mind, parameters changes through versions. Check documentations around to make tests with other versions....



We don't need disambiguation, we need a miracle to get out of this mess. :whistling:

To increase the mess level, Reminding Pentium4 host pc have different result with 0.9.0 (official) and 0.11.5 (unofficial).
0.11.5 reported (by saydin77) not booting pe1x64.iso , besides it works with core2duo (here :thumbup:) when booting both pe1x64 (fine) and pe2x64 (slowly).

So far no success result with Pentium4 by using anyversion for booting PE2x64 , this results mainly (& deeply) effects yahoouk's (Pentium4 3ghz) Multi7PE project development (project also supports PE2x64 & Pe3x64). If any success story comes, The most happy fellow around will be yahoouk.

#40 mihi

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:34 PM

In fact, qemu's emulation is the most compatible one - makes it possible to run exotic os'es and scene demos on them that try to switch to an unusual memory layout or use some more exotic processor instructions (that are not available in non-Ring-0 code). So, if you want to run some less mainstream BSD forks, or MenuetOS, or HURD, or native Oberon, you will not have much luck with VirtualBox or other mainstream virtualization software. Therefore, when in doubt, use QEmu - and disable kqemu, because it uses similar tricks that will make your emulation break.

(In case you want to really debug the hardware low-level, and it is x86, and you don't care about running even slower than qemu, use Bochs - it has an excellent debugger view :thumbsup:)

You can also run Solaris (for SPARC) in qemu for doing compatibility testing. It's slow, though.

For analysing malware, qemu is great, too, as it can be started without any guest addition interfaces (-> no known ways to exploit the system from within the VM) and most malware tries to detect virtual PCs but does not try to detect QEMU (still doable from the hardware names and BIOS strings, but most malware does not care).

For other uses, like mainstream systems on your native architecture, other virtualization software is usually preferred because it is much faster.

#41 was_jaclaz

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 08:29 AM

Maybe the "/" is messing things up.

@Icecube
Sorry, but unlike usually :thumbup:, you are completely missing the point. :whistling:

Any "normal" Qemu ".exe" if run on command line WITHOUT parameters shows it's help (accepted parameters).
UNLIKE the above "normal behaviour", the 0.11.5 exits silently, without displaying anything in the command window, the "snapshot", UNLIKE the 0.10.6 coming from the same source, INSTEAD of displaying help whines about missing bios.bin in C:\Program Files\Qemu. :whistling:

jaclaz

#42 MedEvil

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 01:43 PM

The topic title is a bit misleading, isn't it?
Or do you have found a qemu version, that works more than just sometimes?

btw. I hope that when you reach a conclusion, you will upload the final compilation.

:whistling:

#43 was_jaclaz

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:24 PM

The topic title is a bit misleading, isn't it?
Or do you have found a qemu version, that works more than just sometimes?

The second you said.

As reported in first post by Lancelot, we have right now:
  • 0.9.0 working (with updated BIOS)
  • UNofficial 0.11.5 working (on everything BUT Pentium4)

Most of the rest is about the compatibility of these versions with various releases of Qemu Manager.

Hopefully a "good" "official" v.12 will solve the problems and be comaptible with Qemu Manager V6 (or a new Qemu Manager V7 will be released) soon.

:rolleyes:

jaclaz

#44 pscEx

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:32 PM

We now for several days could read version numbers, manager titles, compile trials, suggestions etc.

I do not understand the sence of it.

Version 11 of nativeEx's qEmu.script (uploaded by me on DEC-07 to nativeEx server, thanks @Lancelot) works using qemu-0.9.0-windows in my P4.
And I did no bios change!

Can any P4 user tell me a situation that it does not work?
Or can a 'higher' Intel user tell me a situation that it does not work?

Peter

#45 Lancelot

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 03:52 PM

Hi Peter,

Welcome back birthday boy :rolleyes:

the issue is,
A pentium4 user (yahoouk) can not use your script to test PE2x64 and PE3x64
A core2duo user (Me: em 4400 - none VT) can not use your script with files of nativeex server to test PE2x64 and PE3x64.
A core2duo user (Me: em 4400 - none VT) can use your script with files of nativeex server to test (+ by adding Bochs-2.4.2's bios.bin) PE2x64 and PE3x64. (So far tested only PE2x64 successfully)

Better to update bios.bin file of nativeex server,
http://lancelot.winb...Bochs-2.4.2.rar
;)
ps: It is also verified by saydin77 on Pentium4 that by using qemu 0.9.0, PE1x64 still works fine with Bochs-2.4.2's bios.bin.




@all
To distinguish bios.bin files, never use file size.
http://lancelot.winb...Bochs-2.4.2.rar
http://lancelot.winb...windows.zip.rar
this probably caused wrong reports in the past :D

#46 pscEx

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:07 PM

Better to update bios.bin file of nativeex server,
http://lancelot.winb...Bochs-2.4.2.rar
:rolleyes:
ps: It is also verified by saydin77 on Pentium4 that by using qemu 0.9.0, PE1x64 still works fine with Bochs-2.4.2's bios.bin.

Why not?

I'll give it a try.

Peter

#47 was_jaclaz

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Posted 11 December 2009 - 04:56 PM

@all
To distinguish bios.bin files, never use file size.

.... mainly because thay are ALL 128 Kb or 131,072 bytes in size....:D


A better approach ;) is to open them in a Hex editor and go to the very last few bytes, it's the DATE:
  • 0.9.0 original date 11/01/06
  • Bochs-latest 09/28/09

Just to irritate a bit psc :rolleyes: some more dates (of the BIOS coming with the files tested):
  • 0.9.1 02/08/07
  • 0.10.2 02/27/09
  • 0.10.5 05/08/09
  • 0.10.6 11/01/06
  • 0.11.0 07/11/09
  • 0.11.5 06/23/99



;)

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#48 was_jaclaz

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 04:09 PM

Qemu Manager 6.0 works allright with MenuetOS 64 bit.
This should mean that the 0.10.x incompatibility is just with BOOTMGR (or other Windows PE 2/3.x booting file) :rolleyes:

jaclaz

#49 pscEx

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:04 PM

This should mean that the 0.10.x incompatibility is just with BOOTMGR (or other Windows PE 2/3.x booting file) :rolleyes:

I have the (currently not yet completelly proofed) feeling, that Win7 does not like any qEmu.

In all (?) of my x86 / x64 trials to emulate nativeEX_Win7 in qemu (several versions, several bochs BIOS versions) during boot the win7 PE tells me, that the hardware is not compliant with ACPI compatible.

Peter

#50 was_jaclaz

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Posted 12 December 2009 - 07:25 PM

I have the (currently not yet completelly proofed) feeling, that Win7 does not like any qEmu.

In all (?) of my x86 / x64 trials to emulate nativeEX_Win7 in qemu (several versions, several bochs BIOS versions) during boot the win7 PE tells me, that the hardware is not compliant with ACPI compatible.

Maybe it's something else (like drivers or what not). :rolleyes:

A plain 7 Recovery disc boots with the "right" combo of QEMU+BIOS.

jaclaz




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