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64bit emulation without hardware virtualization (VT)


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#1 Lancelot

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:21 AM

** qEmu emulates CPUs , check IceCube post 10
As a result, qEmu (qemu-system-x86_64.exe) can boot x64 pc without VT support (or even no x64 support ex: Pentium4) of host CPU.

Test results of booting PEx64 with qEmu at current topic:

Main goal of current topic is having qEmu (qemu-system-x86_64.exe) boot PE1x64 PE2x64 PE3x64 down to a Pentium4 PC.
So far:
PE1x64 boots down to Pentium4 PC (with an acceptable speed)
PE2x64 boots down to MultiCore PC (slowly, be patient). ====> Pentium4 support is still missing which is very important.

For qemu tests, mostly Boch 2.4.2's bios.bin used which is agreed to have better results.
Edit: Also SeaBios 0.4.3 have good results like Boch 2.4.2 (can be obtained from archives inside latest qemu here http://www.qemu.org/)
http://lancelot.winb...Bochs-2.4.2.rar

:) B) qEmu 0.90: So far it is reported having best results,
PE1x64: down to Pentium4 reported booting fine.
PE2x64: needs update of bios.bin. Adding boch 2.4.2 bios.bin boots fine down to "MultiCore none VT" (but NOT Pentium4) (please be patient ;))

Here is a ready small package for new users to start simple tests: qemu-0.9.0-windows_20091209.7z Check 9Info.txt inside the package :lol:

B) :lol: qEmu 0.91: Reported to cause bsod
:lol: qEmu-0.10.X (Unofficial): 10 series of qemu-system-x86_64.exe seems causing some bad results. MenuetOS 64 bit reported boot fine.

:lol: qEmu-0.11.50 (Unofficial): Second best result with 1 missing: PE1x64 can NOT boot on Pentium4


We are expecting & hoping better results from next versions of qEmu since things seems to get better with 0.11.50


note: "MultiCore None VT" on this topic are reported as E4400 (Core2duo 2ghz) , E5200 (Dual Core 2.5GHZ )


qEmu Websites:
Official: http://www.h7.dion.ne.jp/~qemu-win/
Official Continuation: http://homepage3.nif...takeda-toshiya/

qEmuOrg (The place where qemu development continues): Well Designed, Windows binaries NOT available (.gz files available), Good documentation, You can find an exclusive list of other websites http://www.qemu.org/

**A topic created at qemu-forum-ipi-fi to inform qemu developers ;)
http://qemu-forum.ip....php?f=5&t=5368

You can find UnOfficial distributions here:
distributions from bttr: http://www.bttr-software.de/qemu/
qemu forum where you can find some binaries: http://qemu-forum.ip....php?f=5&t=5297
A link from qemu-forum.ipi.fi: qemu-0.11.50 (inside qemu-master-win32.7z) & qemu-0.11.00 http://www.mediafire...9b5ba589d1986ba

qEmu GUI softwares:
qemu manager: http://www.davereyn.co.uk/download.htm
qtemu: http://qtemu.org/


Important notes:
qemu have -cpu switch after version 0.9 (ex: -cpu qemu64)
qemu-system-x86_64.exe directly effected by zlib1.dll


****
Boch is another CPU emulator which is successfull. So far "Boch 2.4.2" tested with similar results to qemu 0.9.0 .
BUT Boch emulator is very slow compared to qemu (and an annoying mouse issue), so current discussion on the topic mainly focus on qemu.
Besides, Boch emulator have a good debugging screen where experts can get some info.

** An Info about VT: None-Cpu emulators (Ex: Vmware, VirtualBox) requires VT suppot to boot PEx64. To see If your CPU have VT support here is a way:
Download CrystalCPUID , install and Execute.
At the bottom (right) of main screen, There is "VT" , If it is gray than you do not have VT support, If it is black than you have VT support.
ps: Check google about VT support, there may require some additional bios settings to enable or activate VT. Best Check for VT support is learning your cpu model (You can find at CrystalCPUID interface) and checking datasheet of your cpu which is available at cpu manufacturer web site.

If you do not have VT support and you want to test PEx64, try a CPU emulator (ex: qEmu :lol: )


POST 1 of current topic rewritten to gather Infos of Current topic, old post 1 is available at the end of post 5.

@ALL_staff: Please feel free to update/fix/add/crossmatch/flip-flap :) any info at post 1 to keep up to date with right info.

Edit: A topic also created at qemu-forum.ipi.fi to inform the developers and to get support. http://qemu-forum.ip...5...368&p=15771
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#2 sanbarrow

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 11:46 AM

Lancelot - there is not much you can do as far as I know.

VMware , HyperV , Virtual PC and VirtualBOX all need VT support to run 64 bit guests.

XENserver needs VT for all Windows-guest - no matter if 32bit or 64bit

#3 was_jaclaz

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:54 PM

Qemu has a 64 bit version.

Of course Qemu is a bit slower than other VM's.

jaclaz

#4 sanbarrow

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 01:06 PM

and QEMU can really run 64 bit guests ?

#5 Lancelot

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:10 PM

yipppiiiieeeee

Thanks sanbarrow for support, I guess we found 1 thing superior about qemu B)

Thanks jaclaz, i never thought qemu could handle this, YES It really can run 64 bit guests :lol: :lol: :lol:

just copied some lines i found and used with qemu-system-x86_64.exe
qemu-system-x86_64.exe -L . -boot c -m 600 -cdrom .\winpe.iso

Now I need to study more qemu :lol:



EDIT: Original post #1 here:

I have a Intel Core 2 Duo E4400

which does NOT have hardware virtualization support. (VT-Support)

This is verry bad for me because for each test of a PE x64, i need to restart computer :)

I am using 2k3x64 for host os, is there any way to have an emulator that can boot "pe x64" on a hostos-x64 without VT-Support ??



#6 was_jaclaz

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 02:53 PM

just copied some lines i found and used with qemu-system-x86_64.exe
qemu-system-x86_64.exe -L . -boot c -m 600 -cdrom .\winpe.iso

Now I need to study more qemu :lol:


Use Qemu Manager in order to have a nice GUI comparable to Vbox or VMWare :lol::
http://www.davereyn.co.uk/download.htm

@sanbarrow
Of course NOT :lol: , you do know how much I like posting senseless and completely unuseful info. Posted Image


:lol:

jaclaz

#7 sanbarrow

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 01:35 AM

see Jaclaz - thats why you are the FINDER :lol:
I only found reports in google where folks had problems :lol:

Also having a 64 bit version only means that the app QUEMU can work on 64bit OS - it does not necessarily mean that it can run 64 bit guests.


Ulli

#8 Lancelot

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:33 AM

Also having a 64 bit version only means that the app QUEMU can work on 64bit OS

just to avoid any misunderstanding with "having 64 bit version":

qemu-system-x86_64.exe is 32bit and can also work on 32bit OS, only this time you cant boot 64bit os. (I dont know if having vt-support changes this or not)

I guess "-x86_64" means x86 application to boot 64bit OS when available. (note: qemu-system-x86_64.exe also boots x86bit OS)
64bit hostos, yes available :lol: (does not need vt support, yippiyayooo)
32bit hostos without vt support, not available
32bit hostos with vt support ??????? (can someone test)




I played a lot since yesterday and it helped a lot on working things, definately better than restarting pc for each trial :lol:

#9 was_jaclaz

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:55 AM

see Jaclaz - thats why you are the FINDER :lol:

I only found reports in google where folks had problems :lol:

Also having a 64 bit version only means that the app QUEMU can work on 64bit OS - it does not necessarily mean that it can run 64 bit guests.

Actually the only thing I actually know is that in recent versions of Qemu Manager you can choose the VM as having either a 32 bit or a 64 bit (virtual) CPU. :lol:

:lol:

jaclaz

#10 Icecube

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 05:02 PM

Qemu is very different compared with VMWare and VirtualBox.
Qemu emulates the CPUs. It is able to emulate CPUs from the x86, ARM, PowerPC and SPARC architecture. So it can emulate a 64 bit CPU on a 32 bit CPU host system.

QEMU is a dynamic translator. When it first encounters a piece of code, it converts it to the host instruction set. Usually dynamic translators are very complicated and highly CPU dependent. QEMU uses some tricks which make it relatively easily portable and simple while achieving good performances.
The basic idea is to split every x86 instruction into fewer simpler instructions. Each simple instruction is implemented by a piece of C code (see `target-i386/op.c'). Then a compile time tool (`dyngen') takes the corresponding object file (`op.o') to generate a dynamic code generator which concatenates the simple instructions to build a function (see `op.h:dyngen_code()').

Because of this approach, qemu is a lot slower than VMware and VirtualBox. But in theory (http://qemu-forum.ip....php?f=6&t=2680), qemu can run the PowerPC version of Mac OS X on your x86 PC, while VMware and VirtualBox can't.

Technical documentation about Qemu:
[url="http://"%20<a%20href="http://www.qemu.org/qemu-tech.html""%20target="_blank">http://www.qemu.org/qemu-tech.html"</a>"]http://www.qemu.org/qemu-tech.html[/url]

#11 Lancelot

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Posted 07 December 2009 - 03:25 PM

Hi all,


lately with saydin77 and Peter reports, something is more clear:

qemu-system-x86_64.exe can boot PE1x64 , depends on the hostos cpu.

the lowest cpu reported working is core2duo 1.7

but qemu-system-x86_64.exe can not boot PE1x64 on hostos having Pentium4 cpu.
qemu-system-x86_64 comes to the screen "Please Wait" and hangs forever. (reported by saydin77, I guess same error with Peter's P4 tests)

qemu-system-x86_64 v0.11.50 tested ALSO Bochs-2.4.2 bios files tested without success.

qemu document already indicates that there are missings with qemu-system-x86_64 , but I feel in a shortwhile they will add the missings. Besides maybe someone comes with an idea before that
:whistling:

#12 Lancelot

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 12:28 PM

Hi all,

My previous post was mostly wrong (Not my fault, I waited double check (saydin77+psc)) before writing here. Lately with a "last" check, here is updated results.

With hostos Pentium4CPU, using qemu-system-x86_64.exe to test PE1x64:

qemu-0.9.0 success
qemu-0.10.6 fails
qemu-0.11.50 fails

saydin77 recently tested with qemu-0.9.0 on LiveXP server, He says failure can be reproduced with 0.9.0 by using an updated zlib1.dll

:whistling: :thumbsup:

#13 was_jaclaz

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 01:40 PM

Just to try DISAMBIGUATING.

There is an "unofficial" page for Win32 Qemu here:
http://www.bttr-software.de/qemu/
right now at 0.10.5

There is an "official" page:
http://www.h7.dion.ne.jp/~qemu-win/
stopped at 0.9.0, and redirecting to the new site:
http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/qemu/
which redirects to:
http://homepage3.nif...a-toshiya/qemu/
right now at 0.10.6 AND to a "snapshot" dated 8th September 2009

There is ANOTHER "unofficial" page here:
http://lassauge.free.fr/qemu/
right now at 0.11.0 but ONLY for the "lite" (please read as i386) version

0.11.50 DOES NOT even exists (yet) on the project homepage:
http://www.nongnu.or...u/download.html
which is right now at 0.11.0-rc1

WHAT :thumbsup: are you talking about?

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#14 Lancelot

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:31 PM

Just to try DISAMBIGUATING.

and Google translator again fails with some possible combinations (disambiguate, ambiguating, ambiguage )againsts jaclaz wisdom :whistling: :thumbup:

I get files from saydin77
with his last pms (about an hour ago) he also wrote me he failed with v12 :thumbup:
I pm him now asking where he gets these :cheers:
http://lancelot.winb...1.50-windows.7z


I mostly wonder the reason our advanced users saydin77 and psc both failed with tests of 0.9.0 on P4. (now saydin77 succeed and hopefully psc will too) :whistling:

edit: small addings

#15 was_jaclaz

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 02:38 PM

"Stolen" from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia....:Disambiguation
http://en.wiktionary.../disambiguation

but it's English allright:
http://www.thefreedi...om/disambiguate
though of relatively recent adoption:
http://www.merriam-w...ry/disambiguate

From what I understand, there may be different shortcuts (in the literal sense of the word), patches or workarounds to actually compile the Source on Win32 platform that lead to malfunctioning.

I.e. the compiled version from one surce may be "worse" than one compiled by another programmer.

An example is the single/double slash/backslash:
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=7650

:whistling:

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#16 pscEx

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 04:51 PM

Hi all,

My previous post was mostly wrong (Not my fault, I waited double check (saydin77+psc)) before writing here. Lately with a "last" check, here is updated results.

With hostos Pentium4CPU, using qemu-system-x86_64.exe to test PE1x64:

qemu-0.9.0 success
qemu-0.10.6 fails
qemu-0.11.50 fails

saydin77 recently tested with qemu-0.9.0 on LiveXP server, He says failure can be reproduced with 0.9.0 by using an updated zlib1.dll

:whistling: :thumbup:


I can confirm! :whistling:
Using qemu-0.9.0 the PE boots with:
  • Source x64 on P4
  • Source x86 on P4
  • Source x64 on E5200 with host XP x86
  • Source x86 on E5200 with host XP x86
@Lancelot: (In spite it seems to be confirmed) We need your official result about
  • Source x64 on E5200 (or whatever you have) with host XP x64
  • Source x86 on E5200 (or whatever you have) with host XP x64
Peter

#17 Lancelot

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 08:08 PM

@Lancelot: (In spite it seems to be confirmed) We need your official result about

  • Source x64 on E5200 (or whatever you have) with host XP x64
  • Source x86 on E5200 (or whatever you have) with host XP x64
Peter


I officially confirm both works fine :whistling: with PE1x64 and PE1x86 booting.
(whatever I have is E4400 (Core2duo 2ghz) )

@jaclaz

saydin77 wrote me he found 11.5 from here where there is a download link to here (inside qemu-master-win32.7z)

edit: btw, thanks for the new words, disambiguation and ambiguity ( :whistling: )

#18 was_jaclaz

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 08:27 PM

saydin77 wrote me he found 11.5 from here where there is a download link to here (inside qemu-master-win32.7z)

Well that should be anyway 0.11.0, NOT 0.11.5 :thumbup:
http://www.mediafire...9b5ba589d1986ba

Even if it is, it is actually ahead of the official release, as said currently 0.11.0-rc1. :thumbup:

This one, with all due respect for zfeet :cheers:, appears to me like an "unofficial" and "experimental" version, if not a "fork". :whistling:

If I were you I would try the 0.10.5 from:
http://www.bttr-software.de/qemu/

:whistling:

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#19 Lancelot

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 09:18 PM

Well that should be anyway 0.11.0, NOT 0.11.5 :thumbup:
http://www.mediafire...9b5ba589d1986ba

Even if it is

(inside qemu-master-win32.7z)


the thing is, this particular version (0.11.5 unofficial) boots PE1x64 fine here (E4400 - no VT support), but saydin77 wrote that it is unsuccessfull with Pentium4 .

If I were you I would try the 0.10.5 from:
http://www.bttr-software.de/qemu/

:whistling:


0.10.5 from bttr do not work with PE1x64 booting in my tests (tried many combinations).
I tried adding the original files which are directly downloadable _SDL.dll.7z _fmod.dll.7z _zlib1.dll.7z , also added dll files from qemu-0.10.0-win32.7z to get a bit more updated, also tried using dll files from qemu-0.9.0.

Well since qemu-0.9.0 working satisfactory enough with pe1x64 and pe1x86 builds at a down level of Pentium4 , I guess there is no qemu issue for PE1x tests. (though LiveXP and NativeEX_Barabone and other pe1 projects can easly continue using qemu 0.9.0).
ps: The trouble and tests with unofficial versions started with saydin77 reporting 0.9.0 not working with Pentium4 PC and Peter confirming saydin77's not working result with his Pentium4 PC. However today accidently with some reasons I asked saydin77 to retest and he succeed with 0.9.0 , than I asked Peter to test 0.9.0 on Pentium4 PC where he succeed too. Well whatever happened before with these previous tests, I am happy to continue using official 0.9.0 :thumbup:

However there is a problem to boot PE2-3 , I remember I booted fine to vistape 32bit a year ago with qemu, but never succeed booting pe2/3 x64 with qemu. Yahoouk wrote that he could not succeed with P4 3ghz on PE2/3x64 tests here too.

I hope pe2/3 admins or users find a way for none-VT support pc. :whistling:

#20 yahoouk

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Posted 08 December 2009 - 10:50 PM

I think Winload.exe couldn't pass the 64bit limitation and hang the OSs. If someone bypass the limitation, may be working.

YahooUK

#21 was_jaclaz

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 09:02 AM

To finalize the thing, Qemu Manager v 6.0 ships with Qemu 0.10.2:
http://www.davereyn.co.uk/download.htm
I guess that version would be also worth a try.

jaclaz

#22 Lancelot

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 09:39 AM

jaclaz

To finalize :thumbsup: , I test with Qemu 0.10.2 from Qemu Manager v 6.0, Failed again.

#23 allanf

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:20 AM

jaclaz

To finalize :whistling: , I test with Qemu 0.10.2 from Qemu Manager v 6.0, Failed again.


No. Allow me to have the final word (I don't think so!) ...

Tried QEMU Manager 4.0 (QEMU 0.9.0). All config boxes unchecked, no virtual HDD, booting amd64 WinPE 2.1 .iso, requires fix: Fixing STOP A5 on qemu, and IT WORKS!

BTW, QEMU Manager 6.0 crashes for me too.

Thanks to all. :thumbsup:

#24 Lancelot

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:05 PM

No. Allow me to have the final word

always :thumbsup:

(I don't think so!) ...

I agree :thumbup:

I still fail :whistling: (updated bios.bin with bochs latest package (Bochs-2.4.2.exe) "BIOS-bochs-latest"-->"bios.bin") + tried to follow your instruction.

I guess configuration file of qemu manager4 is systemv3.dbf , here is the one I used
http://lancelot.winb...00912091359.rar
and here is bios.bin I used
http://lancelot.winb...00912091359.rar

Can you send your configuration file (and bios.bin you used if they differ)

#25 allanf

allanf

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:23 PM

Can you send your configuration file (and bios.bin you used if they differ


Ahh! Just this minute uninstalled it (v.4.0). Was about to try Qemu Manager 5.0. I use the installer versions for the moment.

The only thing I changed was the bios.bin (dload Bochs-2.4.2.exe from sourceforge, extract required file with 7z). Also added windib video driver in profile, and changed .exe to ...x86_x64. Unchecked all config boxes. That's all, I think.

The "fix" seems only necessary for pe2 (3?). Are you trying one of these?




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