Jump to content











Photo
- - - - -

Can our PE kill hardware?


  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:17 PM

Yesterday was the second time in a year, that a PC was dead after a PE ran on it and executed the shutdown command.
Just like before, the powersupply is dead. No hissing, no poping sounds, no smells - simply dead! :unsure:
(And those were two different computers!)

That makes a total of 8 dead devices after the use of a PE + shutdown\eject in the last 3,5 years.
None failed to work, before or during PE use, but all were dead on the first start thereafter.

Also may be worth noticing or not, no dead device since i stoped using shutdown command and simply eject the CD and turn the computer off.

Did anyone notice something similar?


:(

#2 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:20 PM

We do have a smiley for this:
:(

:unsure:

jaclaz

#3 pscEx

pscEx

    Platinum Member

  • Team Reboot
  • 12707 posts
  • Location:Korschenbroich, Germany
  • Interests:What somebody else cannot do.
  •  
    European Union

Posted 18 September 2009 - 04:28 PM

Running 'any PE' should not cause that result.

It think that 'running a PE built from ????? project' maybe can cause this result.

What is '?????' ?
And if you can reproduce the issue with the ????? project, post the log.

Peter

#4 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:21 PM

The list of PE includes
LiveXp, NaughtyPE, StandartProject and nativePE.

:unsure:

#5 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 September 2009 - 06:01 PM

The list of PE includes
LiveXp, NaughtyPE, StandartProject and nativePE.

:(


You were running 4 PE's at the same time and you also managed to shut down them all at the same time? ;) :unsure:

jaclaz

#6 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 18 September 2009 - 07:24 PM

Sure, how do you check if your hardware is PE resilliant? :unsure:

;)

#7 Nixie

Nixie

    Newbie

  • Members
  • 20 posts
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 September 2009 - 08:11 PM

Yesterday was the second time in a year, that a PC was dead after a PE ran on it and executed the shutdown command.
[....]
Did anyone notice something similar?

:unsure:



:( hi
the only way to kill a machine is blancking the bios... but i suggest to remove the ram and clean the connectors with
a pen eraser ....I think it's just an unfortunate coincidence.
;)

#8 paraglider

paraglider

    Gold Member

  • .script developer
  • 1729 posts
  • Location:NC,USA
  •  
    United States

Posted 18 September 2009 - 11:24 PM

If a power supply is going to fail then it will fail on power up. In 8 years I have had one power supply fail in my home PC. PC was running ok. I shut it down. Just like you no indication it was bad but would not power up. PE was definitely not involved at the time.

#9 DaemonForce

DaemonForce

    Frequent Member

  • Advanced user
  • 119 posts
  • Location:SEA
  • Interests:[=D=] is online when I am.<br /><br />DaemonPE is 18% complete!<br />Latest ISO manufactured 25/09/2007
  •  
    United States

Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:18 AM

Problem: Computer component dies after running an OS it wasn't designed to handle.
Solution: Stop buying cheap crap and build a real computer.

Windows PE cannot kill hardware unless you are using programs that specifically instruct said hardware to behave in an unintended manner. BIOS flashing comes to mind but there's a whole world of USB and SCSI devices that escape me. But why flash the BIOS from WinPE? Flashing the BIOS from anywhere but the BIOS is stupid.

Audio devices/drivers are perhaps the biggest stability issue I've witnessed. I know that plugging in a certain MP3 player will kill my computer upon disconnect. I also know the warning signs so I can save stuff before it has the chance.

#10 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:15 AM

Well, while "killing" a BIOS is possible (actually only "zapping" it, you just re-burn the eeprom and it is fixed) and not even difficult, I still have to see anything capable of killing a PSU.
PSU = Power Supply Unit

Last time I checked one, it had no data cables, and the only "signal cable" is the ATX ON/OFF, which of course can at the most turn the PSU ON or OFF.

About the 4 PE's let's use some logic (reductio ad absurdum):
http://en.wikipedia....tio_ad_absurdum
IF a PE actually can kill a PSU, it is likely that it will do so when running and the last "useful" moment would when you shutdown (and the PSU appears dead at first later boot)
The only way a PE (or any other OS) can "plant" a "timer bomb" and have doing anything while another OS or PE is running, is by "planting" the bomb inside the BIOS, or by modifying normally unaccessible parts of the hard disk, or however putting it in some of the other "static" memory places, that include the CD/DVD ROM (if firmware upgradable).
Now, it is obvious that if anything modifies any of these "storing places", it must do it so in such a way that "normal behaviour" of the system is NOT affected until the bomb is triggered.
Since each of these hardware pieces is "custom" and "not standard", this "payload" NEEDS to be custom crafted for the specific hardware device, or in other words, targeted for the specific make/model.
Such a wondeful piece of stealth mode malicious code would need to be programmed very, very accurately, it cannot be generated "randomly".
The probabilities of such a narrowly targeted and malicious code finding a suitable machine is very, very remote, but here we are talking about something that if present inside one of the named PE projects, has been run by at least several thousands of people on more thousands of different machines, and actual pieces of hardware are produced/sold in millions of pieces, the probability of that at least TWO reports would have been generated is so high that it would be a certainty: we would have another similar report.
So let's assume that we either:
  • need a second similar report to even have a reason to imagine that the problem actually exists
    OR
  • resolve that the connection of the (at the moment only hypothetical) problem with more than one PE is absurd.
Thus we have to assume that no "time bomb" is planted and only 1 out of the 4 PE's, the one that was last booted, may eventually be the culprit.

Now, we miss this information, so we need an inductive method, out of these:
  • LiveXp
  • NaughtyPE
  • StandartProject
  • nativePE
which one stands out for:
  • being developed by the OP and thus being probably run more frequently than others on that machine and probably also in pre-alpha stages
  • including a number of hardware drivers (Audio/Multimedia related) that other builds simply miss
? ;)

Let me think.... :unsure:

JFYI, my microwave oven died soon after heating a rather newish kind of of pizza (instead of the usual mushroom and ham, it had additionally BLACK OLIVES on it :unsure:), my researches brought me to the conclusion that olives, due to their form factor, tend to reflect microwaves at awkward angles, but with common green olives this is not much of a problem, whilst the coulour of black ones alters the actual frequence of the reflected waves, since they are partially absorbed.

:(

jaclaz

#11 DaemonForce

DaemonForce

    Frequent Member

  • Advanced user
  • 119 posts
  • Location:SEA
  • Interests:[=D=] is online when I am.<br /><br />DaemonPE is 18% complete!<br />Latest ISO manufactured 25/09/2007
  •  
    United States

Posted 19 September 2009 - 10:52 AM

my researches brought me to the conclusion that olives, due to their form factor, tend to reflect microwaves at awkward angles, but with common green olives this is not much of a problem, whilst the coulour of black ones alters the actual frequence of the reflected waves, since they are partially absorbed.

Damn! It would appear my non-Jewish pizza making ways have been found out! ;)

#12 Nuno Brito

Nuno Brito

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 10545 posts
  • Location:boot.wim
  • Interests:I'm just a quiet simple person with a very quiet simple life living one day at a time..
  •  
    European Union

Posted 19 September 2009 - 12:40 PM

my researches brought me to the conclusion that olives, due to their form factor, tend to reflect microwaves at awkward angles, but with common green olives this is not much of a problem, whilst the coulour of black ones alters the actual frequence of the reflected waves, since they are partially absorbed.


I'm still in shock after reading that Italian folks heat pizza in microwaves.. :(

In Portugal we take pride in doing this the oven for extra crispy flavor.. ;)

-----

MedEvil, I've ran into similar issues with a lot of machines before. They keep on running but then won't power up. It's like Paraglider pointed out - a matter of electricity quality that is provided by the grid.

In most cases, this is a question of waiting some time and the machine eventually allows the user power it on again.

Also, some people who got tired of seeing this thing happen way too many often would even go home and leave the machine powered on 24/7.

:unsure:

#13 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:13 PM

I'm still in shock after reading that Italian folks heat pizza in microwaves..

In Portugal we take pride in doing this the oven for extra crispy flavor..


;) Kids today....:unsure:

First microwave to heat it's core and soften it up quickly.
Then grill heater to get the upper surface hot.
Finally frying pan to get the underside crispy.

COMBO-re-heating with frying pan:
http://thedeliciousd...eat-debate.html

Of course the used oven is a combo microwave/grill, a normal oven will make it too dry or not hot enough inside.

A Combo using a microwave oven and a traditional oven is also doable.

OR, if you are a semi-pro pizza eater (and re-heater), dedicated apparatus:
http://www.choice.co... Microwave Oven

- a matter of electricity quality that is provided by the grid.


Interesting ;), a new theory. ;)

Does anyone think that there is such a thing as a "bad" or "good" electricity? :(

Besides this kind of things/claims, of course:
http://www.dothegree...ter_electricity

That could be the reason, NOT the BLACK olives! B)

and it would also nicely explain the problems I had over the last few years with ;):
  • hair driers
  • vacuum cleaners
  • several (really a lot of 'em) light bulbs
  • dishwasher
  • washing machine
  • TV set
  • ...

;)

jaclaz

#14 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:33 PM

Let's call it MedEvils Miracles and Wonders for now. ;)

The two power supplies were a curtesy of NaughtyPE.

The Standard Project killed a Firewire card without even having a driver for the damn thing.

nativePE killed my external Firewire HDD. The Hdd itself survived but the enclosure elektronics got fryed to the extend that also the USB connection was dead.
(Between starts the external drive was not powered down or disconnected.)

LiveXP killed over the years 1 graphics card (with just vgasave and 800x600x32 ;)) 1 CD-Burner and 1 DVD-Burner.
No i didn't burn anything from within PE. Those were just the drives PE was started from.
Both experienced the exact same problem. It wasn't that they couldn't read CD anymore but that their electronic was damaged in a way that they prevented the booting up of the computer as long as they were connected to the IDE bus.

And no, i don't think it is a virus or a similar piece of malicious code. If it is not just a coincidance, i suspect that something is simply done in the wrong way, like breaking by putting in the reverse gear. ;)

@jaclaz
I'm shocked that your fellow Italiens havn't thrown you out for such sacrileg! ;)

MedEvil, I've ran into similar issues with a lot of machines before. They keep on running but then won't power up. It's like Paraglider pointed out - a matter of electricity quality that is provided by the grid.

In most cases, this is a question of waiting some time and the machine eventually allows the user power it on again.

I know this effect too, but in this case no hardware is actually damaged.
Quick fix is to remove the graphics card - turn the computer on - wait till it complains - shut it down put the card back in and it will work just fine again.

Some BIOS settings get screwed up, i think and those have something to do with the installed hardware. Changing the hardware configuration somehow causes the BIOS to recheck the installed hardware and replace the faulty data.
Why reseting the BIOS settings does not help, is beyond me.

;)

#15 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 19 September 2009 - 01:40 PM

and it would also nicely explain the problems I had over the last few years with ;):
[*]several (really a lot of 'em) light bulbs

Wile on the topic of Miracles and Wonders.
Has anyone ever notices that light bulb are very territorial?
A ligh bulb which is alone in a lamp will always live longer than one which is in a lamp with other bulbs.
The more bulbs in a lamp the faster they die.

;)

#16 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:09 PM

Wile on the topic of Miracles and Wonders.
Has anyone ever notices that light bulb are very territorial?
A ligh bulb which is alone in a lamp will always live longer than one which is in a lamp with other bulbs.
The more bulbs in a lamp the faster they die.

;)


Sure ;), it's a known phenomenom, it's called CLISS, acronym for Co-Lighting Induced Stress Syndrome.

Some reference:
http://en.wikipedia....cent_light_bulb


Basically one light bulb enters in a "competitive mode" with the other ones, like in:

Hey wait, you are emitting 200 Lumens, I can do much better than that!

at this point the bulb, by cleverly nearing the support wires of it's filament, lowers it's internal resistance. allowing for more current to flow and more light to be emitted.

Nearest bulb notices it and by the same reasoning tries emitting more light as well. (and lifetime is inversely proportional to Voltage and Current drawn)

The estimated time for this "circle" to close in a 12 bulbs lamp is estimated in 6 to 8 weeks. (Light bulbs are not particularly smart, and definitely have slow reaction times to provocations. :unsure:)

The most common error ;) people do when a light bulb dies (on a multi-bulb lamp) is to replace ONLY the dead one. ;)

Quite obviously the new bulb will emit more light, even because it is cleaner, besides the fact that the newbie will try to impress the older mates, and this behaviour will exacerbate the competitive feelings of the other old ones, triggering an even faster reaction.

The right ;) thing to do when a bulb dies (besides disposing of the body properly, R.I.P.) is to change ALL bulbs in the same lamp with new bulbs of same make/model and re-use the removed working ones ONLY in single bulb lamps.

There are unreferenced voices that the new bulbs should additionally come from the same production lot (brotherhood feeling dumping competitiveness), but they are unconfirmed.

There is no apparent connection of the phenomenon to the density of the lamp, i.e. number of bulbs/diameter of the whole lamp or distance between to near bulbs: figures show that this is not a variable of the equation.

There is not yet enough literature/data to determine whether energy saving lamps show a similar behaviour or not. B)

:(

jaclaz

#17 Nixie

Nixie

    Newbie

  • Members
  • 20 posts
  •  
    Italy

Posted 21 September 2009 - 12:02 PM

@jaclaz
I'm shocked that your fellow Italiens havn't thrown you out for such sacrileg! :cheers:


B) :loleverybody:

HIIIII ! amazing must have suffered a transplant!
has no Italian heart!


;) B) :cheers:

#18 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 21 September 2009 - 12:17 PM

I see that after my brain:
http://www.boot-land...?...=3537&st=17

I have to forfait my privacy once again.

No transplant, luckily, simple genetics:
http://www.boot-land...?...c=6848&st=9
http://en.wikipedia....ical_appearance

Here is a photo of my heart (please read LIVER):
Posted Image

:loleverybody:

jaclaz

#19 Nuno Brito

Nuno Brito

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 10545 posts
  • Location:boot.wim
  • Interests:I'm just a quiet simple person with a very quiet simple life living one day at a time..
  •  
    European Union

Posted 21 September 2009 - 12:38 PM

First microwave to heat it's core and soften it up quickly.
Then grill heater to get the upper surface hot.
Finally frying pan to get the underside crispy.

So I see.. a very technical approach indeed.

I might feel tempted to employ this method myself one of these days but it's very difficult to convince my wife to change her way of doing things.

:loleverybody:

#20 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 21 September 2009 - 01:24 PM

I might feel tempted to employ this method myself one of these days but it's very difficult to convince my wife to change her way of doing things.


I guess that it may be harder then convincing the actual Portuguese pizza makers to make a good pizza.

It's several years I've not been to Portugal, at the time there wasn't any in Lisboa, or at least as gaijin I wasn't able to find one. ;)

I do have to say that bacalhau was good, though. B)

But I guess that even today you have "average" good commercial pizza's, something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a real pizza. B)

I mean you don't have easily available buffalo mozzarella, don't you? :loleverybody:

:cheers:

jaclaz

#21 Nuno Brito

Nuno Brito

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 10545 posts
  • Location:boot.wim
  • Interests:I'm just a quiet simple person with a very quiet simple life living one day at a time..
  •  
    European Union

Posted 21 September 2009 - 01:47 PM

It's several years I've not been to Portugal, at the time there wasn't any in Lisboa, or at least as gaijin I wasn't able to find one.


It's difficult to find good food in Lisbon, not just good pizzarias.. :loleverybody:


I mean you don't have easily available buffalo mozzarella, don't you?

I don't think so.. ;)

But I guess that even today you have "average" good commercial pizza's, something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a real pizza.


Yes, might not be as good as the traditional home made pizza but it's ok for lazy people like myself who like to enjoy a nice meal while watching the PE get a bash on the hardware. (PE was added to keep this topic inside context.. B) )

#22 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 21 September 2009 - 03:51 PM

I think we're nowhere near of topic.
If a CD-Burner gets hot enough to burn a PE, it can for sure get hot enogh to a bake a pizza! :loleverybody:

;)

#23 pscEx

pscEx

    Platinum Member

  • Team Reboot
  • 12707 posts
  • Location:Korschenbroich, Germany
  • Interests:What somebody else cannot do.
  •  
    European Union

Posted 21 September 2009 - 03:56 PM

I think we're nowhere near of topic.
If a CD-Burner gets hot enough to burn a PE, it can for sure get hot enogh to a bake a pizza! ;)

B)

:cheers: B) B) :loleverybody: :cheers: :cheers:

Peter

#24 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:26 PM

What about a pizza-laser-cutter? ;)
http://www.instructa...r-under-50-dol/

A DVD burner laser is usable:
http://hackedgadgets...ngraver-cutter/

B)

And this IS on topic. Posted Image

:loleverybody:

jaclaz

#25 pscEx

pscEx

    Platinum Member

  • Team Reboot
  • 12707 posts
  • Location:Korschenbroich, Germany
  • Interests:What somebody else cannot do.
  •  
    European Union

Posted 21 September 2009 - 04:32 PM

And what about a drone, continously singing "Back to the issue"? :loleverybody:

Peter




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users