Jump to content











Photo
- - - - -

BOOTING USB2.0 FAST SPEED !!!!


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#26 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:36 PM

Have a little question about the exact behaviour of the plop USB driver.

The way i understand it, the boot loader loads the plop driver, then uses it to load the PE image into RAM, at which point the driver gets unloaded and command gets transfered to setupldr.

So when i run PE directly from the stick, without the use of a RAM loaded image, the plop driver is pretty much pointless, as it will only speedup the loading of setupldr. Right?


:idea:

Yes and no.

I understand it slightly differently. :P

As I see it PLoP simply replaces the BIOS USB stack (if present) or creates one, or if you prefer it is a BIOS extension, thus:
  • it allows booting from USB on BIOSes that do not support it
  • it allows boting at USB 2.0 speed on motherboards which have USB 2.0 capablities but which BIOS only boots at 1.1 speed

Thus, as long as you stay in "Real Mode", it gives you exactly what a "good" BIOS would, no more, no less.

Where is the "exact" moment when "Real Mode" is superseded by "Protected mode" kicking in? :)

I would guess after SETUPLDR.BIN, but not much.

I presume that if you want to boot faster on one on those motherboards (chips 2.00, BIOS 1.1) you need to use the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" approach (possibly and eventually additionally to PLoP).

:P

jaclaz

#27 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:38 PM

Have a little question about the exact behaviour of the plop USB driver.

The way i understand it, the boot loader loads the plop driver, then uses it to load the PE image into RAM, at which point the driver gets unloaded and command gets transfered to setupldr.

So when i run PE directly from the stick, without the use of a RAM loaded image, the plop driver is pretty much pointless, as it will only speedup the loading of setupldr. Right?


:idea:


yeah . u got the point .

since setupldr will load the rest of the files .

BUT i may be wrong , coz lets say setupldr is not using ram image , but still setupldr is depending on the usb transfer speed which is being given to him by plop's hacked driver ?

tell u what , i have seen many posts lately in chinese forums , that they have been using plop to load ram load pe IF not initiated by map --mem . because i remember victor888 mentioned somewhere in wuyou forums , that it pointless to use the plop driver if we use map --mem . but if we use map /iso file . then it MAY be useful.

anyways i ll post the speed results tonight or may be tomorrow . we'r having hot summer actually .so it is hard to work at night :P

#28 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:42 PM

I presume that if you want to boot faster on one on those motherboards (chips 2.00, BIOS 1.1) you need to use the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" approach (possibly and eventually additionally to PLoP).

:idea:

jaclaz



what is this approach sir ? similar to kicker image ?

#29 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:51 PM

Sir , i hope u remember this post ,

Partly.

If you use " .ima" file, it means you use RAMDISK.SYS.
Thus the image is first copied to RAM and then booted.
The copying is done by the SETUPLDR.BIN/NTLDR (i.e. during the "text-mode" or "real mode" part of booting) thus the BIOS routines are used.

If the BIOS routines support USB 2.0 speed the copying will be fast, if they use USB 1.1 speed. it will be slow.


jaclaz


thats what plop does , it forces usb 2.0 speed at bios level . (right ? )

so i guess the problem is solved now :idea: or am i seeing a dream with open eyes ? :P

quoted from following ,

http://www.boot-land...?...=4186&st=10 post#14

#30 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:05 PM

I would guess after SETUPLDR.BIN, but not much.

Actually right inbetween. :P Setupldr consists of a realmode part and a protectedmode part.

Thanks you two for clearing this up for me. :idea:

:)

#31 online

online

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 767 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:14 PM

@maanu

I'm interested in this driver and so I'm experimenting a little: now it seems I know a bit more rather than before.
The "miracle" is due to "aspiehci.sys" within my "ghost.ima".
So, PLoP loads its USB 2.0 driver, (@MedEvil: then the image loading is much more quick rather than if it was USB 1.1, and if it is a big image as a PE built can be even some hundreds of MB, it is much more quick independently if it is loaded in RAM or not; and the difference in terms of speed is very huge - some mins compared to few tens of secs: with USB 1.1 driver even grub4dos screen menu loading is terribly slow...), then I launch ghost, then ghost installs my UFD with its USB driver and then I can write on my UFD the gho backup image.
I'm experimenting with a Win98SE disk image too and it seems enough to add "aspiehci.sys" in the root of the image adding
DEVICE = aspiehci.sys /int /all
in "config.sys", then it installs the "aspiehci" driver (and in Win98SE it just installs it).
I've noticed that through the PLoP usb driver then "fdisk" from win floppy image does not work (it returns to the blinking underscore in command prompt); and it continues not to work even when "aspiehci" is installed.
My trials at this moment (and for now) are over, but please could you try if also loading XP Recovery Console and/or ERD Commander through the PLoP driver then they work for you too?
Here both are working, and even through the previous install of PLoP driver then I am able to copy-to and to write on my UFD.

@jaclaz
Since it is quite obvious that if the driver's author states that his driver is a read-only one then it must be just so, please note that when I replied to maanu: "Are you sure about your statement?", I was referring to this statement. :P

it wont let u write anything back to usb .


At least, now I (we) know that (at least) in one case (excluding XP cmdcons and ERD Commander that work too; and your opinion about that is appreciated) a "workaround" exists and we can write on the UFD even previously using the high speed of PLoP USB 2.0 driver.


:idea:

#32 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 05:45 PM

(@MedEvil: then the image loading is much more quick rather than if it was USB 1.1, and if it is a big image as a PE built can be even some hundreds of MB, it is much more quick independently if it is loaded in RAM or not;

:idea: Where to do you wanna load an image if not into RAM?

:P

#33 online

online

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 767 posts

Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:11 PM

@maanu

may be this is because i do not create a ramdisk to load these items from while in dos?

A my old/previous release of Symantec Ghost (without USB driver) hangs too even when loaded in a RAMdisk: what does the difference (at least here) is "aspiehci.sys" (if you want to test it you can direct-download it from here), that's the USB driver loaded at ghost startup (after loading of PLoP).


@MedEvil

Yep, I meant RAMdisk.



:idea:

#34 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 03 August 2009 - 10:22 PM

Actually right inbetween. :idea: Setupldr consists of a realmode part and a protectedmode part.

Yes, but the "real mode" part of SETUPLDR.BIN doesn't just chainload the "protected mode" part immediately, before doing that accesses/copies other files like "base" drivers, setupreg.hiv and the like (text mode), what I don't know is how much this may "weight" in booting time. :P

See also the link given below to maanu to the cdob's .script.

@maanu
Yes, it is a "kicker", just continue reading on that topic, link to original "XP Kansas City Shuffle" or "Fake Signature" method is given:
http://www.boot-land...?...=4186&st=25
the idea was born thanks to s4e, with contributions by the "usual" Dietmar, minor things by yours truly :),and, as always some precious insights from cdob:
http://www.911cd.net...o...21242&st=40

in the meantime, it has become a "standard" in UBCD4WIN thanks to pcuser:
http://ubcd4win.com/...showtopic=11375

and a Winbuilder .script too, thanks to cdob:
http://www.boot-land...?...ic=5487&hl=

Fuwi has also added it to his USB formatting utilities:
http://www.911cd.net...o...c=21702&hl=


@online

Then, as expected :P, after all it wasn't PLoP having writing capabilities but the GHOST driver. :P


:P

jaclaz

#35 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 06 August 2009 - 09:30 AM

@ Jaclaz

thank u so much for the pointing sir .

yes i know about pcuser's UBUSB . and it did make a significant difference while booting ubcd4win .

anyways im gonna checkout the linked threads (although i have been already directed ages ago by pcuser to fully read the original topic but i overlooked the suggestion since it was all working for me . but now i guess i ll have to check this out . and the related links u mentioned .

but im still unsure if i can use cdob's script with wimpack and bootsdi also ? anyways i ll start experimenting on it .

thanks again.

@ online

i have checked by booting live xp iso with 0xff and hd32 . with plop both did start loading , but screen gone black immdediately . and usb light stopped blinking . then i extract files at root ,. chainloaded setupldr.bin , this time after plop loaded , it did make the difference on my system of 37 seconds of boot time .

but i still can not understand , why after plop ,it did not see maanu.iso at root of usb drive ? :idea:

booted RC which i made using ur instructions (cdob's method ) .

same thing happened to it like with live xp iso . blank screen and no usb activity , with plop .

without plop , worked fine . as well as maanu.iso with both 0xff and hd32. and i used all the commands by hand . thanks to sir jaclaz , now i understood why he always recommend this to noobs like me, it is relatively easy to understand the concept and memorize the commands. :P

#36 online

online

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 767 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 11:34 AM

@maanu

Really I do not know how you are exactly trying, surely I used the latest release of both grub4dos (grub4dos-0.4.4-2009-06-20), and PLoP (5.0.3) as "plpbt.bin" (patched to automatically - and hidden - recognize/install the attached USB devices, when chosen from the grub4dos's menu screen) with the following entries in menu.lst
title PLoP Boot Manager 5.0.3

root (hd0,0)

kernel /boot/plpbt/plpbt.bin
Furthermore, please note that all files may reside not only in the UFD's root, but anywhere (in folders and/or in the 2nd partition)... and it works fine just as above described. :P

Probably not a great finding, but if the present small workaround just is effective in order to exploit both the speed of PLoP USB 2.0 driver compared to USB 1.1 controller speed (very very low) at loading everything on those machines where USB 2.0 is not available and then the writability of a subsequently installed USB driver (just like "Symantec Ghost" does), I think that at least in some case it could be however useful. :)
Please, note that if "Symantec Ghost 11.0.1" image just contains the USB driver already above mentioned then it does not hang and regularly starts (writing and saving any image backup).

My tests have been performed also with ERD Commander ISO, built as described here
http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=71141 (that writes - and really save - without any issue on my UFD).
Furthermre any PE-based ISO image tested (VistaPE included) loads and works fine (and very very quickly, compared to 1.1 controller speed).
Also, as already said, I was able to copy (and to save) a file from my system drive to my UFD with XP Recovery Console image just built as yours (probably some difference exists in how grub4dos loads it, with which entries? :P) loaded through PLoP USB 2.0 driver.

:P


@jaclaz

@online

Then, as expected :idea:, after all it wasn't PLoP having writing capabilities but the GHOST driver. :P

Yep, please read above. :P

#37 online

online

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 767 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:32 PM

Timing-test:
CPU - Intel Core2 Duo 2.20 GHz
SDRAM - DDR2-800
Active@ Boot Disk Suite ISO (modded by me, 135MB) loaded from Transcend JetFlash 2GB
root (hd0,1)
map --mem (hd0,1)/boot/bds.iso (hd32)
map --hook
chainloader (hd32)


  • USB 1.1 Controller - without PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    9 mins 15 secs to reach the Welcome Screen, of course it seemed more than hung. :P
  • USB 1.1 Controller - with PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    42 secs to reach the Welcome Screen.
    1 file copied and saved :idea: from my SystemDrive to the 1st partition of my UFD.
  • USB 2.0 Controller - without PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    49 secs to reach the Welcome Screen.

Please, draw your own conclusions. :)

#38 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:57 PM

USB 1.1 "label" speed= 12 Mbps
USB 2.0 "label" speed=480 Mbps

Ratio 480/12=40:1

9x60+15=555 s

555/42=13.21:1

555/49=11.32:1

It seems like the speed of the stick is a bottleneck. :idea:

Have you got handy an external USB hard disk, to see if there is any sensible difference? :P

jaclaz

#39 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 05:59 PM

I have done a few timing tests with firewire and USB2 exteranal HDD some time ago.
They usually performed in the range of 30MB/s which is half the claimed speed it should work.
For USB1.1 i have done no such tests. If anyone has, i would be interested to hear how far USB 1.1 performs under label. :P

:idea:

#40 online

online

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 767 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:27 PM

@jaclaz

@All

Further timing-test:
with the same configuration of the above test, loading ISO (135MB) from USB HD

WD 1600BEA External USB Device (2.5" - 5400 RPM - 160GB)

  • USB 1.1 Controller - without PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    8 mins 14 secs to reach the Welcome Screen.
  • USB 1.1 Controller - with PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    35 secs to reach the Welcome Screen.
  • USB 2.0 Controller - without PLoP USB 2.0 driver
    39 secs to reach the Welcome Screen.
Please, note that - to UFD further speed-disadvantage - the ISO file was placed on 2nd partition of my UFD and on the 1st one of my UHD.

So - after all - the Transcend UFD does not seem too slow at all :P, and "as matter of fact" the feeling with its use is just that: it appears just fast... and very very small (with the same external size, 4GB and 8GB too)! :idea:
http://www.techshout...sh-t3-small.jpg

#41 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:43 PM

The most interesting part of those timings is that the actual boottime (setupldr - Desktop) have to be always identical.
So how many seconds can we substract to get the actual USB load times? :P
With USB 1.1 the effect of the difference should be ignorable, but with the USB 2.0 timings, it would have to have a huge effekt.

Lets say the actual boottime would be 15 seconds.
That would make 9min or 540sec for USB1.1 and only 27sec for USB2.0 which would give us USB2.0 : USB1.1 = 20 : 1.

:idea:

#42 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:08 AM

The most interesting part of those timings is that the actual boottime (setupldr - Desktop) have to be always identical.
So how many seconds can we substract to get the actual USB load times? :)
With USB 1.1 the effect of the difference should be ignorable, but with the USB 2.0 timings, it would have to have a huge effekt.

Lets say the actual boottime would be 15 seconds.
That would make 9min or 540sec for USB1.1 and only 27sec for USB2.0 which would give us USB2.0 : USB1.1 = 20 : 1.

:idea:


You are right. :P

And this should re-connect to the work done at the time by gosh:
http://www.msfn.org/...howtopic=106964
and by Martin (Draugen):
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=16528
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=17807

and by yours truly for Recovery Console:
http://www.911cd.net...o...20983&st=18
WARNING! the file there misses USB support:
http://www.911cd.net...o...20983&st=20

and to a maybe noticeable difference between having a "full" TXTSETUP.SIF "plain" and having it compressed as TXTSETUP.SI_. (though the difference will definitely be the loading of perfectly unneeeded drivers)

Now it would be the rigth occasion to create a "TXTSETUP.SIF Optimizer" to remove from it all unneeded drivers. :P

Another "something" that may interest online would be reading together these:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=19748
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=3611
if NTLDR can be loaded from DOS, why shouldn't SETUPLDR.BIN?

:P

jaclaz

#43 wimb

wimb

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2629 posts
  • Interests:Boot and Install from USB
  •  
    Netherlands

Posted 12 August 2009 - 05:08 PM

Using PLoP boot manager to preload USB 2.0 driver was tested for bootable USB-stick prepared with Make_USB.exe
In my case I have tested the change in speed for loading LiveXP BootSDI.img from USB-stick into RAMDISK.
The time to load the LiveXP Boot Image was reduced by a factor 5 by letting PLoP preload the USB 2.0 driver.

As reported previously by OCMan in post #8, I have also problem in restart of grub4dos from USB-stick after PLoP was selected the first time from grub4dos menu.lst on USB-stick. In that case the result is a flashing cursor and booting failed.
But selecting instead at that point the BootSector file RMLD1.bs from boot.ini menu to launch the loading of LiveXP into RAMDISK solved my problem.

I also tested to Boot first with grub4dos from Harddisk and Select then PLoP boot manager and USB Boot.
The funny thing is that after PLoP now grub4dos will boot from USB-stick and booting LiveXP with chainloader /RMLD1 can be used from menu.lst


In conclusion booting for the three described cases was:

USB-stick BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > grldr > menu.lst > plpbt.bin > USB-stick BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > grldr ==> Flashing cursor

USB-stick BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > grldr > menu.lst > plpbt.bin > USB-stick BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > C:\btsec\RMLD1.bs="PE 1 - Boot BootSDI.img from RAMDISK"

HD BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > grldr > menu.lst > plpbt.bin > USB-stick BootSector > NTLDR > boot.ini > grldr > menu.lst > chainloader /RMLD1

with PLoP - LiveXP 111 MB loading into RAMDISK in 42 sec - boot 30 sec from RAMDISK
without PLoP - LiveXP 111 MB loading into RAMDISK in 215 sec - boot 30 sec from RAMDISK

#44 wimb

wimb

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2629 posts
  • Interests:Boot and Install from USB
  •  
    Netherlands

Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:24 AM

There is a remarkable disadvantage in using PLoP boot manager to preload USB 2.0 driver. :cheers:

When booting in the next step with LiveXP BootSDI.img (fast) loaded from USB-stck into RAMDISK
then in LiveXP the USB-stick is no longer visible as Drive and is also not visible as harddisk in Disk Management.

It would be nice if there is a solution to this problem,
since having within LiveXP no access to the USB-stick is really a disadvantage of using PreLoad of PLoP USB 2.0 driver. :whistling:

#45 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:38 AM

There is a remarkable disadvantage in using PLoP boot manager to preload USB 2.0 driver. ;)

When booting in the next step with LiveXP BootSDI.img (fast) loaded from USB-stck into RAMDISK
then in LiveXP the USB-stick is no longer visible as Drive and is also not visible as harddisk in Disk Management.

It would be nice if there is a solution to this problem,
since having within LiveXP no access to the USB-stick is really a disadvantage of using PreLoad of PLoP USB 2.0 driver. :whistling:


I can hardly follow you. (please read as I cannot follow you :cheers:)

Seemingly unrelated (and probably actually unrelated :)):
http://www.boot-land...?...ic=8752&hl=

What happens if you disconnect the stick and re-connect it?

And what if you do the above from command line:
http://www.uwe-siebe...usbstick_e.html
(check for Removedrive and DEVCON)

jaclaz

#46 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:49 AM

When booting in the next step with LiveXP BootSDI.img (fast) loaded from USB-stck into RAMDISK
then in LiveXP the USB-stick is no longer visible as Drive and is also not visible as harddisk in Disk Management.


what do u exectly meant by the next step ?

when i tried plop , with bootsdi img and vmdk packed image , it booted fast as expected , and i could see my usb drive after booting into pe with plop hack ,.

anyways i ll recheck it to be sure and will show the log file .

#47 wimb

wimb

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2629 posts
  • Interests:Boot and Install from USB
  •  
    Netherlands

Posted 18 August 2009 - 12:24 PM

What happens if you disconnect the stick and re-connect it?

In LiveXP (lxhfcxaf of amalux) disconnect and re-connect the stick does not solve the problem.
The stick is simply not recognised in LiveXP if PLoP was used to PreLoad USB 2.0 driver

Booting was exactly as described for case 2 or 3 in my post #43 of this thread.

I will try the USBDummyDisk.Script of oriensol to solve the problem and report later about it.

In LiveXP I get with ListUsbDrives.exe

ListUsbDrives V1.7.8
Lists attached USB drives and their USB port names for USBDLM
Freeware by Uwe Sieber - www.uwe-sieber.de

Operating System = 5.1 SP0 (0)
Current User = SYSTEM
LogonType = Server
Member of group =
Admin = yes

No USB drives found

Press any key to close


Later I will report more about using USDLM

#48 maanu

maanu

    Gold Member

  • Advanced user
  • 1134 posts
  •  
    Pakistan

Posted 18 August 2009 - 01:44 PM

by using both wimboot and bootsdi+wimpack , with plop , everything is working for me .

i tried these 2 builds with plop hack , and upon reaching to the desktop , in both , i have seen my another usb drive plus the one from which i was booting .

#49 was_jaclaz

was_jaclaz

    Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 7100 posts
  • Location:Gone in the mist
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 August 2009 - 03:16 PM

Another possibly completely unrelated thing. :whistling:
HotSwap!
http://mysite.verizo...p/index_enu.htm

Reported to be handy for USB devices too:
http://www.msfn.org/...nce-t127729.htm

jaclaz

#50 wimb

wimb

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2629 posts
  • Interests:Boot and Install from USB
  •  
    Netherlands

Posted 18 August 2009 - 08:26 PM

by using both wimboot and bootsdi+wimpack , with plop , everything is working for me .

i tried these 2 builds with plop hack , and upon reaching to the desktop , in both , i have seen my another usb drive plus the one from which i was booting .

Thanks for testing.
I have no experience yet with wimboot, but will try your approach.

Did you try also simply to boot with LiveXP BootSDI.img from USB-stick after PreLoad of PLoP USB 2.0 driver ?
I would like to know if you observe then the same problem as I have now.

@jaclaz
I tried HotSwap and got the red removal icon in LiveXP,
but USB-stick was not recognized for removal: No hotswap devices.

Remarkable is that on booting with PLoP USB 2.0 driver,
then the powerlight of my internal cardreader is switched off and will never come back.
Nevertheless I can boot with LiveXP BootSDI.img fast loading from the USB-stick,
but in LiveXP the green safe removal icon is not there and as reported already the USB-stick is not recognised as a drive or disk.

Has anyone the same problem or is it related to my hardware ?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users