Jump to content











Photo
* * * * * 4 votes

CloneDisk


  • Please log in to reply
595 replies to this topic

#126 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 20 June 2010 - 10:29 AM

Version 1.7.0 can now backup and restore an image to/from devio (server-end program of ImDisk by Olof).

This way, thru network, you can now backup/restore disk images.
One could, for example, in a winpe setup + clonedisk, dump or restore its disk thru network

devio.exe is included in clonedisk.zip or can be downloaded here : http://www.ltr-data.se/opencode.html .

devio examples :
-devio 9000 c:\disk.img 0 0 (for a full disk image starting at offset 0)
-devio 9000 c:\disk.img (devio will then automatically set the offset to the first found partition)
-devio 9000 \\.\D:
-devio -r 9000 \\.\PhysicalDrive1 2
-devio -r 9000 \\.\PhysicalDrive1 0 (to read the entire disk)

Regards,
Erwan.

Posted Image

#127 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 20 June 2010 - 11:31 AM

I know that I am a PITA, but if you compare the screenshot of version 1.3:
Posted Image
with your latest one:
Posted Image

You can see how the Tabs have increased from 10 (which are ALREADY "a lot") on two rows to 15 on three rows! :unsure:

You have probably already hit the upper limit of Tab oriented interface, it is ALREADY difficult to manage these, maybe you could think about re-organizing the app in order to make it more "ergonomic".

Mind you nothing against all the nice features of the app :unsure:, only I fear that this way users will be confused, when you click on a Tab it seems like a dance is happening, and even if you know what you are doing, it takes a few seconds to find again where other tabs have moved to. :unsure:

:unsure:
Wonko

#128 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 20 June 2010 - 11:42 AM

I know that I am a PITA, but if you compare the screenshot of version 1.3:
Posted Image
with your latest one:
Posted Image

You can see how the Tabs have increased from 10 (which are ALREADY "a lot") on two rows to 15 on three rows! :unsure:

You have probably already hit the upper limit of Tab oriented interface, it is ALREADY difficult to manage these, maybe you could think about re-organizing the app in order to make it more "ergonomic".

Mind you nothing against all the nice features of the app :unsure:, only I fear that this way users will be confused, when you click on a Tab it seems like a dance is happening, and even if you know what you are doing, it takes a few seconds to find again where other tabs have moved to. :unsure:

:unsure:
Wonko


Hi Wonko,
No PITA at all : if I get no feedback, then I dont improve.

Plus, the ergonomic side of apps is a nightmare for me :unsure:
I have always been a developper working on the data layer or business logic, never on the GUI as I really suck at it !

I'll shamelessly look at other apps to see what I can "steal" as ideas on the GUI part.

Thanks for the feedback,
Erwan.

edit : in the meantime, as a quick workaround, I have removed the "dancing" tabs effect.
edit2: i realise that I have updated the screenshot on my web site thus modifying your "clonedisk 1.3" screenshot :unsure:

Posted Image

#129 MedEvil

MedEvil

    Platinum Member

  • .script developer
  • 7771 posts

Posted 20 June 2010 - 01:31 PM

Erwan the easiest, not most elegant, way is to replace the tabs with a dropbox. Saves space and looks less confusing.
The only othe tip i can give is, try if you can not group some functionality into the same interface and avoid reordering of elements like the plague!

On a general note.
People find it the more confusing the more elements are there to choose from.
(The golden rule states, that there should be never more than 7 elements, at any time, to choose from.)
Interestingly, people seem to have no problem with components that mean slightly different things under different circumstances. So reuse of inputfields and buttons is highly effective for cleaning up an interface.

So in your case the maximum would be:
- no more than 7 tabs
- per Tab no more than 7 Groups (marked by bevel)
- no more than 7 elements per group
This would give you 343 elements total, Which should be enough for most programs. :unsure:


:unsure:

#130 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 20 June 2010 - 03:01 PM

Generally speaking, I personally like "wizard like" or "install like" interfaces.

I mean, more or less, everything can be divided into a number of sequential steps, with branching when needed.

Take as a (very poor :unsure:) example the small pseudo-GUI I made for VDK:
http://jaclaz.alterv...ts/VDM/vdm.html

Now, compare with steve6375's RMPREPUSB interface (all in one page with numbered steps):
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=7739

The "philosophical" difference is:
  • one-page (or Tab): you choose a number of variables, dropboxes, radio buttons and what not and THEN press the BIG "DO IT!" button
  • wizard like: you arrive to the "DO IT!" button through a number of (logical :unsure:) steps, and the attention of the user is drawn at each step to the single choice he has to take.

In your Clonedisk interface, the confusing effect (besides the "Tab dancing" :unsure:) is given by the fact that on different tabs you have different (needed) controls placed in different places.

Just click in sequence from left to right on the set of tabs in row "Image<->Disk|Disk<->Disk|Informations|Wipe|DiskImage->VMWare|Resize" to see what I mean.

:unsure:
Wonko

#131 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 07 July 2010 - 06:58 PM

Hello Gents,

Some minor modifications :

added : extend volume (on top of grow partition)
added : create disk (next to disk delete layout)
added : create partition (next to create disk)
added : speed test (sequential and random) with createfile flags
added : fix mbr in MBR tab
added : make sparse file becomes make raw image with 2 options (sparse / vmdk)
added : can change disk id in MBR

modified : cosmetic changes (buttons re organised)

Regards,
Erwan.

#132 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 17 July 2010 - 07:03 PM

Hi Gents,

Some modifications and new features in v1.7.4 :

added : can backup/restore mbr from/to a disk image too
added : can write grub4dos to a disk image too
added : can read and write a partition table from/to a physical disk and to a disk image

Posted Image

Regards,
Erwan.

#133 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 17 July 2010 - 10:21 PM

added : can backup/restore mbr from/to a disk image too

Good. :cheers:

added : can write grub4dos to a disk image too

Meaning that it can install grldr.mbr to the MBR and following few hidden sectors, right? :thumbup:

added : can read and write a partition table from/to a physical disk and to a disk image

The screenshot does not show reading/writing a partition table, it shows reading/writing some fields of the partition table, namely completely ignoring the CHS values. :cheers:
Although absolutely correct, indicating the boot flag with 128 (decimal) is not what the large majority of utilities do.
Also, since it seems that you are using decimal for the Partiton ID too, since 07 (NTFS) is shown as 7, I wonder what would happen with a FAT32 LBA mapped (would it show as 0C or as 12? :thumbup:)
Wonko thinks that you should stick to the kind of visualization everyone is used to, with the boot flag as 80 hex and the partiton ID field in hex AND the CHS Start and End addresses in decimal.

:cheers:
Wonko

#134 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 17 July 2010 - 10:38 PM

Hi Wonko,

This is why I like this forum : rigourous gents like you :thumbup:

You are fully right : i lamely skipped the CHS part of the partition table and this will be corrected.
I felt lazy today and did feel like fighting with bits (chs are "sharing" bytes) : did not take long before I was caught :cheers:

Regarding hex values, right again : I have been a bit too fast, I'll change that.
I should have known better actually.

About <quote> Meaning that it can install grldr.mbr to the MBR and following few hidden sectors, right? </quote>, I write 18 sectors (i.e 8192 bytes) which are the bytes contained in grldr.mbr on grub4dos.

This is basically what grubinst or bootlice does.

Regards,
Erwan.

#135 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 17 July 2010 - 11:25 PM

This is basically what grubinst or bootlice does.


Sure :cheers:, I didn't doubt about what the utility did. :thumbup:

I was trying to disambiguate your "write grub4dos" which can be easily be mistaken with "copy grub4dos files to".

Suggesting the use of "install grub4dos (to the MBR)" that equates to "install grub4dos by copying grub4dos' grldr.mbr to the MBR and following 17 sectors" :thumbup:.

:cheers:
Wonko

#136 ktp

ktp

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 758 posts

Posted 18 July 2010 - 04:41 AM

@erwan.l

> I write 18 sectors (i.e 8192 bytes) which are the bytes contained in grldr.mbr on grub4dos
Should be a typo since 18 * 512 = 9216 bytes = size of grldr.mbr.

#137 TheK

TheK

    Frequent Member

  • Advanced user
  • 141 posts
  • Location:Germany (BW)
  •  
    Germany

Posted 18 July 2010 - 08:37 AM

added : can read and write a partition table from/to a physical disk and to a disk image


I wrote a similar tool for disk images, but I never released it.
Here's how it looks like. Maybe you can use some of my ideas for your GUI :thumbup:

Posted Image

#138 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 July 2010 - 08:59 AM

I wrote a similar tool for disk images, but I never released it.


May I ask WHY you didn't release it?

Or, better, since the reason is completely irrelevant :thumbup:, could you release it in the near future?
It seems like nice. :thumbup:

And since beeblebrox's site is down siince several months and anyway the tool was starting to show it's age, your app could become the new "reference" app. :cheers:


Should be a typo since 18 * 512 = 9216 bytes = size of grldr.mbr.

ktp, check the contents of 2nd sector of grldr.mbr.....:cheers:


:cheers:
Wonko

#139 TheK

TheK

    Frequent Member

  • Advanced user
  • 141 posts
  • Location:Germany (BW)
  •  
    Germany

Posted 18 July 2010 - 09:27 AM

May I ask WHY you didn't release it?


Well, I wanted to add some more features, but then I started a new project and ...
No, the real reason is: I'm lazy :cheers:

Maybe I'll release it soon :thumbup:

#140 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 09:33 AM

@erwan.l

> I write 18 sectors (i.e 8192 bytes) which are the bytes contained in grldr.mbr on grub4dos
Should be a typo since 18 * 512 = 9216 bytes = size of grldr.mbr.


Right : typo from my side.
The mbr I use currently is 8192 bytes aka 16 sectors (not 18).
Alhough there you can also find grldr.mbr=9216 bytes in some of the grub4dos distributions.

Thanks,
Erwan.

#141 ktp

ktp

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 758 posts

Posted 18 July 2010 - 09:38 AM

ktp, check the contents of 2nd sector of grldr.mbr.....:thumbup:


Euh, I did not catch it, could you please explain it to me?
How can 18 sectors = 18*512 = 9216 bytes be written as 8192 bytes as erwan said ?

Edit: ah I did not see erwan's latest post. Effectively in my grub4dos installation, grldr.mbr has 9216 bytes (version 0.4.4 2009-10-09).

#142 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 09:55 AM

I have put the grldr.mbr i use here : http://Erwan.l.free....edisk/grldr.mbr, if you want to check it.
This one is 8192 bytes.

I see that latest grub4dos has a grldr.mbr = 9216 bytes...
I should upgrade.

/Erwan

#143 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 July 2010 - 10:29 AM

Maybe it should be changed so that it is compatible with any grldr.mbr, i.e. (if it doesn't already do it):
  • copy original MBR to sector 2
  • write first sector of grldr.mbr on MBR
  • update MBR DATA
  • copy the remaining sectors from sector 3 to the end of the grldr.mbr to sectors 3÷n

@ktp
Sorry, I thought that erwan.l was referring ONLY to the sectors effectively written AFTER the MBR and the copy of original one. :cheers:
(i.e. 9,216 -512 -512=8,192)

@TheK
Should you need some pushing in the right direction :thumbup:, just call, I can be a real PITA for lazy people, if I want :cheers:.

:cheers:
Wonko

#144 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 10:40 AM

The partition editor will now also handle the start and end CHS values of the partition entry.
Note that the CHS value is stored on 3 bytes but byte 2 and 3 share bits (10+6).
Clonedisk will not compute this for you : it will simple read and write bytes to the MBR...

All values (except relative sector and total sectors) are not in hex.

Posted Image

/erwan

#145 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 10:47 AM

<quote>
Maybe it should be changed so that it is compatible with any grldr.mbr, i.e. (if it doesn't already do it):

1. copy original MBR to sector 2
2. write first sector of grldr.mbr on MBR
3. update MBR DATA
4. copy the remaining sectors from sector 3 to the end of the grldr.mbr to sectors 3÷n
</quote>

This is how I do today :
I backup the mbr locally, next to the executable.
The I copy the grldr to the mbr, and I also of course do not touch the part table, disk id and signature.

I am puzzled about your steps : how will grldr works if I copy 1st sector to sector #1 and remaining sectors starting at sector #3?
Is that possible??

Side question : about CHS, when are these values useful or mandatories?
My first test playing with a USB key and a disk image showed that leaving these values to 0 would not prevent windows from seing the partition fine.
Plus, some tools like partnew (from grub) require only absolute values (relative sector and total sectors) to create a partition (this was what inspired me at first).

/Erwan


/Erwan

#146 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 July 2010 - 10:58 AM

:(

You should update the screenshot, however as is the interface is UNLIKE all other utilities and as thus it is VERY likely to confuse anyone bu the very expert users. :thumbup:

Besides the unusual use of undecoded hex for CHS values, the order of the fields may be daunting, EXPECIALLY as there is no indication about the C, H, and S values.

The 07 still appears as 7. :cheers:

Anyone is used to a convention (right or wrong) established by PTEDIT/PTEDIT32 and ALL other commonly used partition related utilities, there is a table about this in this very oldish thing of mine:
http://jaclaz.alterv...B/USBstick.html
search on the page for "Cross-reference"

About grldr.mbr please do read the grub4dos readme.txt about bootlace.com, the proper way to have grldr.mbr installed is to have a backup of the original MBR on second sector.

Please, let's not start another debate about usefulness of balanced CHS values with LBA ones, it all depends on the BIOS:
  • some BIOS will ignore the CHS values and ONLY trust LBA ones
  • some BIOS will ignore the LBA value and only trust CHS ones
  • some BIOS will check BOTH
  • some BIOS will use Int 13h extensions properly, and some will not, and some others will use them partially

In one word, it's a mess! :cheers:

Since it costs nothing to have all values correct and coherent, WHY not making them so and remove any possible problem from the start? :cheers:

AND check this:
http://www.911cd.net...o...1702&st=129
:thumbup:


:cheers:
Wonko

#147 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 01:38 PM

Oki, I am using this as a referal : http://img162.images...onslogiques.jpg (powerquest partition table editor).

If you now look at latest clonedisk partition table editor here http://erwan.l.free....nedisk/part.jpg , i am now getting closer. (or refresh this page to see the latest screenshot in other posts).

Hex values are now padded correctly and I changed some of the wording to be more like the others tools out there.
Now working on the CHS part : looks like i'll have to fight with bits to make the interface friendly.

I would not dare to start a debate upon chs & lba :thumbup:

/Erwan

#148 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 15103 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 18 July 2010 - 01:45 PM

Now working on the CHS part : looks like i'll have to fight with bits to make the interface friendly.

Look, if I can make it in Excel, I am pretty sure you can do it easily in any programming language. :cheers:

JFYI:
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=2959

http://www.boot-land...topic=2959&st=9

:thumbup:
Wonko

#149 ktp

ktp

    Silver Member

  • Advanced user
  • 758 posts

Posted 18 July 2010 - 02:03 PM

@Wonko the Sane or @erwan.l

What is the difference between partition type 0F (extended X) and 05 (extended) ?
In the referenced figure:
http://img162.images...onslogiques.jpg
it would be more complete to have an arrow starting from Partition type 0F to Goto EPBR button.

#150 erwan.l

erwan.l

    Platinum Member

  • Developer
  • 2794 posts
  • Location:Nantes - France
  •  
    France

Posted 18 July 2010 - 02:18 PM

Oki, clonedisk partition table editor should be very close to the other partition table outthere !
Hopefully, I'll pass the "wonko the sane exam" :thumbup:

CHS values can be edited, in decimal, and the computing behind (shared bits) is done automatically.

Edit : I guess most modern big disks will report always 1023*254*63 as this is te maximum for a 8gb disks.

/Erwan




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users