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Fool the BIOS booting any USB stick as a Hard Disk


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#26 wimb

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 06:50 PM

An AutoIt3 Routine was created to Format USB-sticks with a Harddisk like structure and NTFS/FAT32/FAT FileSystem.
It can be used in Make_USB.exe with the Format Stick Button instead of using the HP Format Tool.

USB-sticks with Second Partition of about 40 MB (using 5 Cyl in case of n/255/63 geometry) can be generated.
For testing purpose one needs to use in this case Make_USB_2.exe from U_XP_SET\USB_XP_Setup folder.

http://www.boot-land...?...5306&st=196

@online
Is this Format routine suitable for you to make USB-stick, which is bootable on your system ?

#27 vmbray

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 02:04 AM

Giga-thumbs up man. This is so HUGE, thank you ^ infinity. Also big thanks to jaclaz for his post relative to wiping usb linked below. Prior to this I thought when you formatted a stick it was clean but after seeing grub4dos pop up after fresh load of winbuilder I know better now.

this should be STICKY STICKY STICKY STICKY


I have been trying off and on for weeks to overcome booting of the excellent nativePE on older motherboards like Intel D845GERG2 and D865GLC that would boot dos ghost netbootdisk conversions and would choke on PE. I found that grub4dos helped with newer crappy bios like ECS but never could get the older boards that would boot usb on dos fine to work.

Until now.

Quick steps that might help someone else:
-Use xp disk mgmt to wipe the usb.
-Use dsfok to wipe first 100 sectors as shown by jaclaz
-Create a partition using most of the disk (tried fat and ntfs with success on d865glc) and MAKE ACTIVE.
-Create another partition using the rest of the disk (used FAT)
-Copy grldr and menu.lst to the root of the first partition.
-Use grubinst_gui to install mbr, don't select a particular partition, just pick the disk and install.
-Copy the contents of your working PE usb install to the root of the new usb.

BOOT BABY BOOT. Sweet. Okay, so I just got this working but from what I've seen if it will boot on a 865glc it will boot on your toaster. THANKS!!!!!

#28 vmbray

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:04 AM

I'll just quickly add that I tried the idea of a FAT extra non-active partition at the first of the drive and it BSODd very quickly in XP nativePE loading so I scrapped it. So while it may help in some circumstances it is certainly not always more compatible. Again on d865glc intel mb.

#29 online

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:05 AM

@online
Is this Format routine suitable for you to make USB-stick, which is bootable on your system ?

I need a bit of time in order to detail your kind reply.
Thank you very much for your pointing. :)

#30 online

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:06 AM

I'll just quickly add that I tried the idea of a FAT extra non-active partition at the first of the drive and it BSODd very quickly in XP nativePE loading so I scrapped it. So while it may help in some circumstances it is certainly not always more compatible. Again on d865glc intel mb.

Really the "Format-it-&-Boot-it" way (with the first FAT partition) is a bit more articulated: I created this way basing on the theory of many reports that refer as a first FAT partition seemed more compatible at booting and I suggest it only for particular employments (please, see in my signature about "Multiple XP on Multi-Partitioned UFD", just as an example).

Since actually I think that really the first FAT partition is not more matter because it referred to old experiences with a single partition and that in my opinion are actually outdated by the dual-partitioning (that's by the "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way), if you want to use a Multiple environment then the first partition could be a FAT32 too.
So in my opinion the "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way is surely preferable in the most other cases.

However, since a BSOD is Windows-related (and not strictly hardware-booting related) if in your case it is occurred then it means that your USB stick has already booted and that something has gone wrong after the booting (I do not use LiveXP and I do not know too well how it works).
So it is not a compatibility issue, because the USB stick has really booted (just because it is however dual-partitioned :)).
With a more detailed issue we also could solve it.

Thank you very much for your kind report about "Format-it-&-Boot-it" way too. :)

#31 online

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:06 AM

BOOT BABY BOOT. Sweet. Okay, so I just got this working but from what I've seen if it will boot on a 865glc it will boot on your toaster. THANKS!!!!!

Really so very happy with your successful report! :)

And with your final consideration too... very effective! The booting from a toaster is a great similitude! :) :)

Btw: performing the wiping of the first 100 sector in the way you have linked is really not needed, or better, I always followed another way in my opinion even better.
And thank you for your pointing that has remembered me to add this important paragraph (I used the MBR replacing with a Not Initialized one since last year). :)
http://www.boot-land...amp;#entry40778
So in order to start with a MBR surely clean & standard I always replace with HDHacker http://dimio.altervista.org/eng/ the current MBR of any USB stick with a MBR of a Not Initialized device.
MBR Not Initialized - Click Here for Direct Download
It is a simpler and surely working way.
After the replacing, please disconnect/reconnect your USB stick and launch XP's Disk Management: it will create just a standard and best compatible MBR and then your USB stick will be just as a brand new one!

Thank you very much for your kind report! :)

#32 vmbray

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:50 PM

You are most welcome, I appreciate your documentation!

Ok, almost boot a toaster. What I found is interesting. I can boot some mobo with the stick created this way, and not others. When made this way, the pesky intel will boot, but NOT the ECS. If I create a stick formatting with the HP utility, then copy in grub4dos and install mbr, it will boot on the ECS. If I then use HDHacker to copy that boot sector to the stick created with this procedure, it will then boot on the ECS. There is very little difference between the two sectors:

Works on ECS:
ë^€ 9ÿÿ è [ëc ÁëŒÈÃŽÛSjuËö t1ÀŽÀ¿üf¸DUCEf«h ¼ 1ÉQº€ R´ùÍZXr€á?ùt‘´‰Å1ÛARùÍZröÜœ1ö1ÿ¹ß üó¥»üf¸GRUªf9uèîêÞ f9t1f`¡ ƒø?w <rH¿ ´™» ¹ `Ías `1ÀÍaOuèfaf9uVr>­ˆæ­‰Á$?t)èHöØ¿ ´h
1Û`Ías
`1ÀÍaOuéùè0‡”ƒÆ þþrÄw¾²1´™RÍXr ™‘$?tAë¾¾è ëþú¸ ŽÐ¼ÜûfaëÈ´Í.¬< uöÃ
Missing MBR-helper. ½îa € þ?x? Áß Uª

Works on Intel:
ë^€ 9ÿÿ è [ëc ÁëŒÈÃŽÛSjuËö t1ÀŽÀ¿üf¸DUCEf«h ¼ 1ÉQº€ R´ùÍZXr€á?ùt‘´‰Å1ÛARùÍZröÜœ1ö1ÿ¹ß üó¥»üf¸GRUªf9uèîêÞ f9t1f`¡ ƒø?w <rH¿ ´™» ¹ `Ías `1ÀÍaOuèfaf9uVr>­ˆæ­‰Á$?t)èHöØ¿ ´h
1Û`Ías
`1ÀÍaOuéùè0‡”ƒÆ þþrÄw¾²1´™RÍXr ™‘$?tAë¾¾è ëþú¸ ŽÐ¼ÜûfaëÈ´Í.¬< uöÃ
Missing MBR-helper. Z˜j  þ??? ° @þ?ö@° ÷Û, Uª

So this is still progress, just have two sticks instead of one that works on all. I'll keep plugging at it as I have time, also for now I will make two sticks and see what they will and won't boot on.

Thanks again!

#33 was_jaclaz

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 03:56 PM

Why you don't put the working (and the working on the other machine) MBR into a zip archive and ATTACH it ?

You shouldnt post binary data as text.

It is impossible to read/compare.

jaclaz

#34 vmbray

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:55 PM

Yes, sorry I was in a hurry. This is intriguing even though I have other stuff to do let's just attach them.

there are two mbr, both work just on different mobo. the one that works on ecs is so noted in the filename.

Thanks for your interest and help!
Vince

Attached Files



#35 online

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 05:00 PM

Ok, almost boot a toaster.

Otherwise I would have worried! :)

However your reports are very interesting, confirming a really desirable event.
Waiting for further time to the time, maybe I will be delighted also by 99,9999% of the booting machines! :)
Many thanks again for your successful report. :)

#36 maanu

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 07:32 PM

An AutoIt3 Routine was created to Format USB-sticks with a Harddisk like structure and NTFS/FAT32/FAT FileSystem.
It can be used in Make_USB.exe with the Format Stick Button instead of using the HP Format Tool.

USB-sticks with Second Partition of about 40 MB (using 5 Cyl in case of n/255/63 geometry) can be generated.
For testing purpose one needs to use in this case Make_USB_2.exe from U_XP_SET\USB_XP_Setup folder.

http://www.boot-land...?...5306&st=196



@online
Is this Format routine suitable for you to make USB-stick, which is bootable on your system ?


it is very useful feature of ur program . i have seen that it asked for applying hp patch too claiming that it MAY increase the bootability on some bioses and then it asks for creating a dummy partition with same claim .

but in disk mngmt , second dummy driver is " healthy " but without any file system . is it normal ? and there is no need of format it with fat32 or fat ?

only online can confirm if it is working . and IF it is working then it is a JEWEL for us.

edit 1: . it seems the last partition made can not be formatted in normal way , see here ( it was after the restart . same msg again )

Posted Image

online , can u confirm anything plz ?

#37 wimb

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 06:29 AM

@maanu

Thanks for testing the new Format Stick routine.
Everything you have observed is normal.

The second partiion is created, but it remains unformatted.
For removable devices Windows does not allow to format second partition. But BIOS will experience the presence of a second partition, and this might make the difference for booting from the USB-stick. We have to wait for online or someone else to confirm if there is the desired effect on bootability.

The nice thing of the Format Stick routine is that it can create the second partition automatically in one step without the need to install a filter driver.

BTW on April 24th a new version of the program was given to remove bug ERROR - Invalid FileSystem popup on pressing GO Button, which would occur for FAT and FAT32 sticks.
This bug has however nothing to do with the new Format Stick routine. But anyway please redownload U_XP_SET if needed.

#38 online

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 06:50 AM

but in disk mngmt , second dummy driver is " healthy " but without any file system . is it normal ? and there is no need of format it with fat32 or fat ?

Since you are speaking about a Removable drive (without "r" :)), yes it is too normal. :)
Just as already explained here

In order to increase the bootability of your UFD it is enough to create just 2 partitions on it.
Really it would be impossible due to the fact that Windows allows just one single partition on your UFD, but if you install a Filter Driver under your Windows PC then your UFD will become perfectly partitionable because Windows (thanks to the filter driver just installed) will recognize it like a Hard Disk (Basic Disk) and you can easily partition it using the XP's Disk Management console (Start > Run > diskmgmt.msc).

To know in which file-system that partition has been formatted you have to install a filter driver in order to see under Windows your USB stick as a Hard Disk and so with all the partitioning really visible.
I've not yet tried the utility you've used (I wish to do it today and/or tomorrow) but I assume that it bypasses the need to format it with XP's Disk Management and with the filter driver installed (it is just for that reason that it has been done :)), so if under Windows your USB stick remains as a removable drive you cannot access to the 2nd partition by design, since for removable drives only one partition is allowed under Windows, and it will be seen just as Healthy and with no file-system (really as unknown).
For the BIOS that is not matter: the BIOS will recognize the two partitions and will believe that your USB stick is just a Hard Disk: so your USB stick will boot in Hard Disk emulation mode that is the most reliable way in order to boot a USB stick.

edit 1: . it seems the last partition made can not be formatted in normal way , see here ( it was after the restart . same msg again )

Please, see the above reply.
I assume that it is already formatted, but under Windows a removable device can have only 1 partition, do you remember?
It is just that the reason for which the fooling of the BIOS works!
The BIOS will believe that your USB stick is a Hard Disk just because there is more than 1 partition.

I will do some further tests soon. :)

#39 Smith

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 05:31 PM

This is really great, thanks for sharing your knowledge and nicely presented to..

Have you tried experimenting with setting up a "public" and "private" area on one of the many
UFD's with that feature ? Some even allow to create 2 public "areas"; that actually creates 2 separate LUN's ..
I can't really say if it has any effect on bootability as the BIOS I have access to seem very forgiving in booting from USB
but it might be worth checking out .. in any case: 8 primary partitions on one UFD isn't bad :)

#40 online

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 11:34 AM

Thank you too... and your idea is interesting. :)

Actually I have not too time for further tests, so please, if you could do (wanting, and having the time) some preliminar tests and then reported your results here I would be very glad, really. :)

#41 vmbray

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 03:36 PM

wimb, I can give some confirmation this seems to be helping, and the program is very convenient also - thanks. I've been working on grub4dos to load winbuilder iso images, grub4dos definitely gives more compatibility but I've had challenges getting one setup that loads across such mobo as ecs 915-m5 and intel d865glc/d845gerg2. I noted before that I could install mbr using grubinst_gui and get it to boot on one or the other but NOT both. With your make_usb_2.exe I think I've found a way, at least for these two machines (all grub4dos mbr seem to work on my newer stuff). Here's what I did:

Using hp format util, format fat, then install grub4dos mbr and backup mbr using hdhacker - save this.
Use your make_usb_2.exe to format the usb ntfs, apply both patches.
Use hdhacker to install the mbr saved above.
This will now boot on all my machines so far, more testing needed.

This seems to open up ideas of how to create different mbr to test on machines for best compatibility, note that the mbr that works the most came from installing grub4dos mbr on a hp util formatted stick and combined with make_usb_2.exe patches will boot on both my stubborn machines, only way I've achieved this yet - and after much, much head banging into the wall.

Put this with the latest liveXP iso and I can boot from iso using bootSDI. Woohoo. Really cool. Thanks to everyone who had a hand in this being possible, you guys rock!

#42 Smith

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 05:34 PM

Thank you too... and your idea is interesting. :)

Actually I have not too time for further tests, so please, if you could do (wanting, and having the time) some preliminar tests and then reported your results here I would be very glad, really. :)


Sure.. I have just started testing this with a UFD using the OTi2168 controller, this controller supports multi-LUN .
Nearly ALL recent UFD-controllers support multi-LUN, you "just" need to find the right tool for it .

The first LUN contains both a "public" and a "private zone", I just left the pw for "private" blank and set the size of "private" to "zero",
seems to work fine . Versions from 2168AG even support a CD-ROM LUN . Each LUN can also be writeprotected if desired.
The Mass-Production-Tool for this controller is easily obtainable and quite simple to use.
Furthermore OTi provides "recoverdisk.exe", a small tool that can reset the controller
to settings read from a .ini-file .. IMO that makes this controller ideal for experimenting..

So far I have the UFD set up with 2 public LUN's, the RMB is set to FIXED for both LUN's (in controller) .
My plan is to make a UFD containing grub4dos and some utility-ISO's on the first LUN, capable of loading anything including a TC-encrypted
winOS on a second HDD, and then have some Linux LiveUSB-distro (most likely DSL)on the second LUN ..
So far I have the grub4dos-part working and have tested it on 3 different systems, all booted successfully :)
I guess I'll need a week or so to play around with this, then you will get an update .

btw : The UFD is an ancient 128MB Fujitsu/Siemens Memorybird, manufactured by swissbits and uses SLC-nand .
OZC and Corsair, to name a few, also use multi-LUN capable controllers, "BootIt" can flip the RMB and the MPT is also available ..



2009_04_26_192546.png

#43 was_jaclaz

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 05:41 PM

Here's what I did:
Using hp format util, format fat, then install grub4dos mbr and backup mbr using hdhacker - save this.
Use your make_usb_2.exe to format the usb ntfs, apply both patches.
Use hdhacker to install the mbr saved above.
This will now boot on all my machines so far, more testing needed.


Hmm :), something sounds just not right, HDhacker is a simple sector copying tool.

Thus, both the CODE and DATA in the MBR is written by the grub4dos MBR install, it is then "set aside" and then re-written to the MBR exactly as it was before.

Are you saving the whole set of sectors of the grub4dos MBR or just the first one? (not that it should make any difference)

jaclaz

#44 vmbray

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:41 PM

Hmm , something sounds just not right


Well that's no surprise - you'd cringe if you saw some of the stuff I've done. And you're right, this causes a little bitty issue when I write this to a different stick (2gb vs 1gb) and this is cool too - I can do this and it will boot and work, but when ejected from the machine after format and set-up and re-inserted, windows will say not formatted. But it boots fine. This must be because I am mis-matching the first sector to the rest of the format. It also says not formatted in PE after booting.

I am writing/restoring just the first sector. maybe it would help to do more sectors? I'm out of my league here...

Thus, both the CODE and DATA in the MBR is written by the grub4dos MBR install, it is then "set aside" and then re-written to the MBR exactly as it was before.


Not exactly, these are the two mbr first sectors I attached earlier in the thread. They are not exactly alike, both were written by grub4dos - one on a stick formatted by hp util and one formatted by windows disk mgmt. I 'set aside' the one written on the hp util formatted stick and used it after grub4dos installed mbr on the make_usb_2 formatted stick - and it works on both machines which is strange and cool. Of course I have more to do here since while it is booting it is not useable as usb stick anymore due to 'not formatted' message, I will work on this some more.

To me this is a somewhat big discovery since I used to use a dos netbootdisk with ghost which had very high compatibility with different machines and I've been frustrated by the windows PE not being more compatible. There's something here....

#45 was_jaclaz

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:52 PM

I am not understing, you reported above that you saved and restored the SAME MBR.

You are actually somehow "mixing" two MBR's?

I.e. you have "sector#1" set aside and you overwrite with this (through hdhackler) the one made by grub4dos after having used wimb's tool? :)

Could you re-state your procedure in detail?

I'll check the two MBR's you posted to see if I can understand what is the difference/reason.....

jaclaz

P.S.:
grub4dos format with xp disk mgmt 2 partitions no work on 915m5.dat -> this one has NO active partition (and the first FAT partition is type 06) this CANNOT boot normally as there is NO Active partition.
Please note that there are two version of the HP utility, 2.06 and 2.18, the latter has been reported to NOT set Active in some cases the partition, see this:
http://www.911cd.net...o...c=21702&hl=

grub4dos format with hp util fat install grub4dos works on 915m5.dat -> this has "normal" data, i.e. a single Active partition (FAT16 type 0E) that should notrmally boot on any "normal" BIOS, compare with the old report about 06 or 0E (FAQ #10):
http://home.graffiti...SB/USBfaqs.html

All you have to do on the first is to open it with beeblebrox or ptedit32 and set the first partition active by writing 80 in the "Boot" box.

#46 vmbray

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 07:16 PM

Thanks for taking the time to look at this with me, yes I left out a step... in red below.

Using hp format util, format fat, then install grub4dos mbr and backup mbr using hdhacker - save this.
Use your make_usb_2.exe to format the usb ntfs, apply both patches.
Install grub4dos files and mbr
Use hdhacker to install the mbr saved above.
This will now boot on all my machines so far, more testing needed.

So the whole format/install grub is done twice. First using hp util to format and save mbr, then all over again using make_usb_2. Lastly restore mbr from first format/grub4dos install.

Interesting the comments about hp util, I'm using 2.0.6 for all this, I'll have to look into your comments some more.

#47 vmbray

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 07:29 PM

Attached the mbr created when formatting with make_usb_2 then installing grub4dos mbr using grubinst_gui. The first partition is active here and yet on the 915-m5 I get 'missing mbr helper'

root of usb contains:
bootlace.com
grldr
grldr.mbr
grubinst.exe
grubinst_gui.exe
livexp_ram.iso
menu.lst

boots perfectly on intel d865glc mobo btw.

Attached Files



#48 was_jaclaz

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Posted 27 April 2009 - 07:10 AM

Still, it does not make ANY sense. :)

Starting from 0.

1.Using hp format util, format fat, then 2. install grub4dos mbr and backup mbr using hdhacker - save this.

This will create a single partition FAT with the standard 2K/XP/2003 CODE and the "HP hack".

And replace the MBR with the grldr.mbr one, writing CODE over the first sector and the following ones (cannot remember how many in latest release)

3. Use your make_usb_2.exe to format the usb ntfs, apply both patches.

This will create one or more partitions NTFS. and replace the CODE and DATA in the MBR (first sector only), wiping the following ones.

4. Install grub4dos files and mbr

This will again replace the CODE on first sector of the MBR and replace DATA on the second sector of the grldr mbr, and rewwrite (with the same grldr CODE) the other sectors.

5. Use hdhacker to install the mbr saved above.

This will OVERWRITE ANY change made after the first step on the first sector of the MBR, while leaving the other sectors as they are.

Result of this should be that of a "normal" grldr.mbr but with a WRONG backup sector. :)

The only way to understand (maybe) what's happening is if you prepare SIX copies of the first, say, 16 sectors of your stick one for EACH of the steps you mentioned:
0.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.


jaclaz

#49 vmbray

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Posted 27 April 2009 - 10:48 PM

Attached requested first 16 sectors. Just to clarify the steps and where I think it may be confusing. I numbered the steps to correspond with the files and tried to say exactly what I've done. Also included two tinyhexer comparisons of mbr which show the differences between:

xp disk mgmt vs make_usb_2 format and grub4dos install, and,
hp util vs make_usb_2 format and grub4dos install.

1. Using hp format util, format fat (or ntfs) not bootable.
2. Install grub4dos mbr and backup mbr using hdhacker - save this.
Call this mbr1 - this is a grub4dos mbr written on an hp format .

3. Use make_usb_2.exe to format the usb ntfs, apply both patches.
4. Install grub4dos files and mbr using grubinst_gui
Call this mbr2 - this is grub4dos mbr written on make_usb_2 format.

5. Use hdhacker to put back in place mbr1 (just first sector) from step 2.

(Note that the two mbr are different - they are the ones I zipped up several posts ago. I think the differences in just the mbr account for the working, esp since I replace just that when writing mbr1 over the second format of the disk.)

After testing on more machines today I concluded that this fix only really helps the ECS 915-m5. My other machines are either fine with the 'regular' format or in once instance booted but didn't have enough ram to load the sdi :)

What I find interesting here is that grubinst is creating the mbr different for different formats of the disk. Does this make sense that it should be doing this?

Attached Files



#50 was_jaclaz

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 08:54 AM

I'll try and check the sectors. :)

jaclaz




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