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VPE c't-Edition has different loader


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#1 MichaelZ

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:21 PM

Hi ctmag,

can you tell us the differences in vpeldr.exe between the one of VistaPE 12 RC1 and the one of VPE c't-Edition? Other differences in scripts I can find out myself, but with the loader it's difficult...

Many Greetings
MichaelZ

#2 Dave7

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:51 PM

Michael,
More important question, does the new loader work better?

Cheers,
Dave

PS
This is probably the homepage of the new VistaPE version?
http://www.heise.de/...ekte/pebuilder/

Unfortunately there is no download link.

#3 MichaelZ

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 08:32 AM

More important question, does the new loader work better?

I have not tried yet to integrate other drivers, thats the area with the deficiencies I've encountered so far. I only ran an out-of-the-box build. I hope to hear from Markus that driver loading has been improved.

This is probably the homepage of the new VistaPE version?
http://www.heise.de/...ekte/pebuilder/

Yep, it is. Do you read German computer magazines so you know the Heise-Verlag?

Unfortunately there is no download link.

I have placed the loader here. If there are legal problems I will remove the file immediately.

There are more goodies in VPE c't-Edition. Big question, will they be integrated smoothly into VistaPE? Is it really necessary to have another forum to discuss problems? In earlier times there was another German computer magazine following this strategy and it did not work out very well (I guess Peter, you remember what I mean... On the other hand I'm not sure if I would have found WinBuilder and Boot Land without VistaCE.

Many Greetings
MichaelZ

#4 Dave7

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 08:57 AM

Thanks!

No, I don't read german computer magazines, but ctmag mentioned this magazine so it was not too difficult to find. I think he also mentioned that the new loader has better driver loading.

Cheers,
Dave

#5 Dave7

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:40 PM

Good news. I tested the new loader and it works much better. In my case VistaPE loads all drivers correctly (until Hardware detection) as far as I can see.

Hardware detection is still broken. But "less" than before.

Here is what happened when I run hardware detection:
- all CD drives disappeared
- IDE controller disappeared in device manager (only RAID controller listed)
- "Silicon Image RAID manager" doesn't recognize RAID drives (even though drives appear to be mounted correclty)

Cheers,
Dave

#6 pecd.net

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:34 PM

Hi,

i am very busy right now, so sorry for not beeing at the forum much these days...

the vpeldr.exe has a lot of changes, but most are regarding driverloading (BTW: i am quite sure your driver loading issues depend on your hardware, i booted dozends of different pc's without problems...).

A good feature is that it creates a logfile in system32...this should help a lot in debuggng:-)

i still to plan a even more updated version as soon as i can find the time, and it will be (if nightman agrees) with sourcecode

i tried to keep both version (c't and Nightmans) as close as possible but there were points were nightman an i did not share the same opinion....

all app scripts should work fine...

For now i would say everyone is welcome to post anything VistaPE c't edition related in this thread...and if something important comes up peter, nuno, dave and some others also have my email adress...so they can contact me...or you try PM but i had several cases where i did not get a message about the new PM...

Hope you all have fun.

#7 was_jaclaz

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 02:24 PM

Can you clarify these points, please?:
1) there are currently TWO vpeldr.exe's
2) first one is modified/programmed/hacked and "approved" by Nightman and is inside "normal" VistaPE project
3) the second is modified/programmed/hacked and "approved" by ctmag and is inside VistaPE c't edition ONLY :(
4) the VistaPE c't edition is not available to the public for download.

If the above is correct, it poses a couple of serious questions. :(

Is the "ctmag"'s file re-distributable or not? :)

Are "derivative" works like "VistaPE c't edition" allowed to be NOT available to the public? :)

jaclaz

#8 ludovici

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:03 PM

hello :)
Where is the VistaPE c't edition ?

#9 MichaelZ

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 05:21 PM

Where is the VistaPE c't edition ?

Together with a lot of other fine stuff it's on a CD that is included in the German computer magazine named c't, edition 2008-26 dated 2008-12-08 (as a subscriber I receive the magazine two days in advance). I have no idea if it is legal to make it public available.

Many Greetings
MichaelZ

#10 newage

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 05:34 PM

Hello all, i just compiled the new version of ctmag, and all is working fine
Also my old scripts like salamder filemanager and acdsee 2.45 working very well.The hardware was found on severall
diverent computer. I think, this is the best compilation for now.Only the parted magic script stopped with an
errot, i think the failure is the #unpack command ,replace it with "unpack" and it will working
I just use the pe compilation to write this now.
Tks nightman, ctmag and all others for this great project.....


many regards

newage

#11 Arvy

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 07:32 PM

i am quite sure your driver loading issues depend on your hardware ...


Hmmm. That would certainly seem very likely, at least in the sense that the drivers themselves are "hardware related." But what does it mean exactly in practical terms and is the c't modified vpeldr version expected to be a "cure" for such issues? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't recall similar issues in VistaPE v0.11, such as actually UNloading support for hardware that had already been detected during early parts of its loading process.

Sorry if I'm sounding obtuse here, but this whole VistaPE v0.12 "branching" thing (if that's what it is) has me totally confused. Is there a coherent plan/strategy somewhere that might help to enlighten us poor end user schmucks?

#12 Dave7

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:00 AM

Hi ctmag,

I don't think it is hardware related, since VistaPE loads all drivers correctly at startup and all hardware components in my system work correctly - until Hardware detection starts. In that case for example my CD drives disappears (regular IDE cd drives). I had a look at the log, but there is no (obvious) information why the corretly loaded CD drives were unloaded again by the VPE loader.

But overall the vpeldr CT-ed version works pretty well (without hardware detection :-). And I am hopeful that the two forks of VistaPE will merge somehow sometime again.

Cheers,
Dave



Hi,

i am very busy right now, so sorry for not beeing at the forum much these days...

the vpeldr.exe has a lot of changes, but most are regarding driverloading (BTW: i am quite sure your driver loading issues depend on your hardware, i booted dozends of different pc's without problems...).

A good feature is that it creates a logfile in system32...this should help a lot in debuggng:-)

i still to plan a even more updated version as soon as i can find the time, and it will be (if nightman agrees) with sourcecode

i tried to keep both version (c't and Nightmans) as close as possible but there were points were nightman an i did not share the same opinion....

all app scripts should work fine...

For now i would say everyone is welcome to post anything VistaPE c't edition related in this thread...and if something important comes up peter, nuno, dave and some others also have my email adress...so they can contact me...or you try PM but i had several cases where i did not get a message about the new PM...

Hope you all have fun.



Hmmm. That would certainly seem very likely, at least in the sense that the drivers themselves are "hardware related." But what does it mean exactly in practical terms and is the c't modified vpeldr version expected to be a "cure" for such issues? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't recall similar issues in VistaPE v0.11, such as actually UNloading support for hardware that had already been detected during early parts of its loading process.

Sorry if I'm sounding obtuse here, but this whole VistaPE v0.12 "branching" thing (if that's what it is) has me totally confused. Is there a coherent plan/strategy somewhere that might help to enlighten us poor end user schmucks?



#13 Arvy

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:37 AM

Well, it's pretty hard to argue that there is no relationship between driver loading and system hardware. Simply stating that issues with the former probably "depend on" the latter, however, doesn't seem to get us very far. If it is meant to imply that we are dealing with some exceptionally rare or unusual hardware phenomenon, actual reported experience strongly suggests otherwise. In my own case, I have three (3) full scale operating systems, including Vista as one of them, plus several other PE builds, including previous VistaPE versions, that have no problems at all with any of it.

#14 Dave7

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:24 PM

Hi Arvy,

Just to clarify. VistaPE (CT'ed) works perfectly for me as well. I just have to hit END to prevent "fast hardware detection" from starting. Looks like that all the drivers are loaded and work correctly. No idea, why "fast hardware detection" creates a problem. Do you think it could be possible that it is just a bug in VPEldr.exe?

Cheers,
Dave

#15 ludovici

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 02:42 PM

Hello everybody :(

What programs are chosen in VistaPE (CT'ed) ?
What are the differences without vpeldr.exe?
jaclaz : Are "derivative" works like "VistaPE c't edition" allowed to be NOT available to the public?
Where can get this ISO or Package ?
How have change the vpeldr.exe ?
Ctmag : i tried to keep both version (c't and Nightmans) as close as possible but there were points were nightman an i did not share the same opinion....
What are your opinion ?
Thanks for your answer :)

#16 pecd.net

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 03:30 PM

With "Hardware related" i meant that this issue does not come up on all systems, onlny some have this problem, depending on the hardware that exists in this machine...i used about a dozend machines and never had such problems, but i am sure it has to do with some driver that is beeing loaded for your hardware that causes this...on other machines with other hardware these drivers are not loaded, so the problem will not come up...please PM me you vpelde.exe logs and i will see what i can do, but this will take time.

Regarding two forks and copying: I am just the author, so all i think and say may be not the opinion of the magazine, and in some parts they (or others) hold the complete rights. For example GDATA Antivrus may not be copied freely and also the drivesnapshot version included...also the getwimfiles.exe is not free (it downloads the files needed for WIM support from MS without downloading the complete waik)

I am quite sure no one will get any problems for copying the scriptfiles, but please be carefull with the apps, not all are free.

There are no real forks here...Nightman is free to take what he wants from the c't version, and he already included 80% of my changes and fixes...most other things (apart from the vpeldr.exe) are more ore less cosemetic...the next c't release will be in a year i think, so there is plenty of time to sort such issues out.-)

VPELDR.exe: the problem here is that nightman did not release the sourcecode, so it is still unclear how this can be released/copied...i will try to release a new version next year and hopefully with nightmans OK with full sourcecode...so please be patient...

And guys, please keep in mind that my work and time here in the forum is pure hobby, nothing else. I admit that many people helped me a lot to get my project to work, but in return i gave everything i could to Nightman and published in the forum were possible...I have fun working on VistaPE and will continue my work as time permits...

#17 Arvy

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:49 PM

Hi Arvy,

Just to clarify. VistaPE (CT'ed) works perfectly for me as well. I just have to hit END to prevent "fast hardware detection" from starting. Looks like that all the drivers are loaded and work correctly. No idea, why "fast hardware detection" creates a problem. Do you think it could be possible that it is just a bug in VPEldr.exe?

Cheers,
Dave


I'm reluctant to take us deeper into the realm of semantic confusion and debate by attaching the "bug" label. Let's put it this way. If it's a hardware dependent "feature", it's one that wasn't present in previous VistaPE versions and that doesn't seem (to me, at least) to be very desirable in this one. As I noted in another thread, I've seen inconsistent results when loading exactly the same VistaPE v0.12 (RC1) build from a CD/DVD disc and a USB flash drive on exactly the same machine.

Anyhow, in order to provide some positive input, I'll do my best to provide ctmag with a log file using the c't modified version of vpeldr.exe as he has requested. That may take me a day or two to get set up so that it is otherwise identical in all respects to previous attempts with Nightman's version.

#18 Arvy

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 10:27 PM

Follow-up as promised: Attached File  vpeldr.zip   3.75KB   299 downloads

Okay! I've tried replacing the vpeldr.exe file in VistaPE v0.12 (RC1) with the c't modified version and there is a DEFINITE IMPROVEMENT in the hardware detection and driver loading processes! As requested by ctmag, a copy of my vpeldr.log file (zipped) is attached to this message. I also saved the setupapi and wpeinit logs. If either or both of those are wanted, let me know.

Here's a summary of the vpeldr.exe replacement process that I followed to ensure the fairest possible comparison with the original VistaPE v0.12 (RC1) version:

1) Open the original VistaPE-Core\Base\07-config.script in the WinBuilder script editor.

2) Extract the system32\system32.7z attachment from that script.

3) Unzip the system32.7z contents and replace the vpeldr.exe file with the c't modified version.

4) Create a new system32.7z file containing the modified vpeldr.exe and use it to replace the attachment in the VistaPE-Core\Base\07-config.script.

5) Run the complete VistaPE build process with no other changes.

During loading, there still seems to be a tendency for later parts of the detection process to want to take away support for some devices that have already been detected. At least in my own case, however, they all seem to be restored okay by the end of it, even when I allow "fast detection" to run to completion.

I've tried the same PE build both from a CD disc and from my USB flash drive and, in both cases, I end up with a fully functional cordless mouse and keyboard. All of my drives are also fully recognized, although I note that Vista's device mangager still shows ICH7 for the PCI and PCI Express "family" rather than ICH9 which it should be in my case. It also reports my Intel E6750 Core 2 Duo processor as two "unknown" devices.

The "bottom line", however, is that the c't modified vpeldr.exe version does seem to alleviate at least some of the hardware detection and driver support problems. So it's clearly a step in the right direction. Perhaps, if both versions do reach the open source stage, we can hope for some further refinements over time.

#19 ludovici

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:55 PM

Thanks for your test Arvy,

If I can participate in this project, Tell me what I can do ?
Personnaly I see no differences, but the speed of execution is better
Can you explain :
08.12.2008-14:07:15: vpeldr.exe - X:\windows\inf\volume.inf not yet in list
And
08.12.2008-14:08:39: vpeldr.exe - X:\windows\inf\volume.inf skipped

Thanks Ctmag and DaveXP

#20 Dave7

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 12:18 AM

Hi Ludovici,

thanks for your thanks. But just to clarify, I am not part of the VistaPE team. The team is just nightman (for VistaPE v12) and ctmag (for VPE ct'ed).

Thanks to Michael for posting the new loader!

Cheers,
Dave


Thanks for your test Arvy,

If I can participate in this project, Tell me what I can do ?
Personnaly I see no differences, but the speed of execution is better
Can you explain :
08.12.2008-14:07:15: vpeldr.exe - X:\windows\inf\volume.inf not yet in list
And
08.12.2008-14:08:39: vpeldr.exe - X:\windows\inf\volume.inf skipped

Thanks Ctmag and DaveXP



#21 Arvy

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 12:29 AM

Sorry ludovici, I really haven't a clue about what any of the vpeldr.log file content signifies. I was just responding to ctmag's request for that type of input from those of us who were seeing some hardware issues. In fact, that particular log file is only a small part of the total picture. My setupapi.dev.log from the same VistaPE build contains a lot of entries that are at least equally perplexing, such as:
ndv: Selecting best match...

	 dvi: {DIF_SELECTBESTCOMPATDRV} 14:06:26.536

	 dvi:	  Using exported function 'VolumeClassInstaller' in module 'X:\windows\system32\SysClass.dll'.

	 dvi:	  Class installer == SysClass.dll,VolumeClassInstaller

	 dvi:	  Using exported function 'CriticalDeviceCoInstaller' in module 'X:\windows\system32\SysClass.Dll'.

	 dvi:	  CoInstaller 1 == SysClass.Dll,CriticalDeviceCoInstaller

	 dvi:	  CoInstaller 1: Enter 14:06:26.552

	 dvi:	  CoInstaller 1: Exit

	 dvi:	  Class installer: Enter 14:06:26.552

	 dvi:	  Class installer: Exit

	 dvi:	  Default installer: Enter 14:06:26.552

	 dvi:		   {Select Best Driver}

!	dvi:				Selecting driver failed(0xe0000228)

	 dvi:		   {Select Best Driver - exit(0xe0000228)}

!	dvi:	  Default installer: failed!

!	dvi:	  Error 0xe0000228: There are no compatible drivers for this device.

	 dvi: {DIF_SELECTBESTCOMPATDRV - exit(0xe0000228)} 14:06:26.552
Obviously, althought the modified VPE loader does seem to overcome some hardware handling problems as I said, it has a long way to go before it comes anywhere close to the pre-installation loader that is used for setting up Vista itself.

#22 pecd.net

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:31 AM

@daveXP: You are all part of the team, you just don't know.-))

@arvy: to be honest, the vpeloader has a long way to go and is not perfect, but it already can do a lot more than the original loader, which in most cases simply does nothing which results in very limited hardware support. So (as i see it) we are not talking about recreating something here, we are talking about creating something...and this is often more complicating than just reproducing something that already exists...

@ludovici: volume is skipped (which loads the volumes on the harddisk controller) as the mshdc.inf drivers could not be loaded...it seems the system doe not contain a harddisc controller that is supported out if the box by Vista drivers and this creates problems...please end the complete log...

#23 pifpof

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 06:59 AM

Hello all, i just compiled the new version of ctmag, and all is working fine
Also my old scripts like salamder filemanager and acdsee 2.45 working very well.The hardware was found on severall
diverent computer. I think, this is the best compilation for now.Only the parted magic script stopped with an
errot, i think the failure is the #unpack command ,replace it with "unpack" and it will working
I just use the pe compilation to write this now.
Tks nightman, ctmag and all others for this great project.....


many regards

newage


Hi newage,

there is already a solution for the parted magic problem! It is published on the magazine's homepage.

The script has an invalid downloadlink! Just change the link and iso name from "3.1" to "3.2" in lines 40, 43 and 51.
I haven't test it myself.

cheers
pifpof

#24 MichaelZ

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:36 AM

to be honest, the vpeloader has a long way to go and is not perfect, but it already can do a lot more than the original loader, which in most cases simply does nothing which results in very limited hardware support. So (as i see it) we are not talking about recreating something here, we are talking about creating something...and this is often more complicating than just reproducing something that already exists...

I think it is fantastic that another person could start to improve vpeldr since Nightmans resources seem to be a little too limited for such a difficult task.
What I don't understand is that a new project named VPE had to evolve. Of course it is quite close to the VistaPE project and scripts are quite compatible. But wouldn't it be better if with ctmag's big help a VistaPE 12 Release would have resulted? Unfortunately the strategy of handling files has changed a little in the new VPE. Two new folders Temp and Templates are used by the scripts to hold downloaded and personal files (why are personal files called template?). VistaPE scripts hold these files in their own script directory. OK, this might be a cosmetic problem, but I think all scripts should follow the same strategy. And if I'm not mistaken, the XP based projects also use script behaviour like VistaPE. Personally I'm a little unsure which project to use from now on: integrate the bugfixes realized by ctmag into VistaPE and make changes to quite a few VPE scripts, or use VPE from now on and integrate my scripts there.
Please don't misunderstand me. ctmag really made a great job, but it could haven been closer to VistaPE.

Many Greetings
MichaelZ

#25 pecd.net

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 09:26 AM

Sorry, but vpe could be no closer to vistape...almost all scripts are the same or they can be exchanged from one version to the other...

Many things are more userfiendly and multilanguage support and explaining texts (for the interfaces) were added with the goal to make it easy for the normal user to get a working vistaPE disc.
If Nigmtman wants this included he can take it but i will not make VPE less usable because he does not want something in his VistaPE.
I will continue making an update pack for vistape and c't edition as i can find the time. If you want an easy package use c't edition and add your apps, I will port over changes from VistaPE as i think is useful. If you want the changes made by NM as soon as they are released use VistaPE. If you want both you will have to put in some work...this is not in my hands, as said before i will not cripple my work because NM wants it his way. It is his project and he has all rights to decide which way he likes best and if i decide different it is yours to decide which way you want to go. I will not discuss this any further, sorry.




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