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Windows7 as source?


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#1 powaking

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 07:17 PM

This may be bit premature but has anyone reviewed Windows7 to see if it could be used as a source? Does anyone see any benefits using Windows7 over Vista SP1 as source?

Just a little something to spur up some conversations.

#2 pecd.net

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 07:48 PM

well it will be fun doing this as soon as i can get windows 7 files:-))

For now i do not see any andvantages...vistaPE still has a long way to go, and it has the potential to evolve...

#3 pscEx

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 07:52 PM

...vistaPE still has a long way to go, and it has the potential to evolve...

And let me as 'Known Vista Enemy' add:
I hope the evolution will not come to some usable results! :(

Peter :)

#4 paraglider

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:58 AM

I am sure there will be a WAIK for windows 7. After all windows 7 will not be much more than vista with a few tweaks. I think you will find that the memory and hardware requirements for Windows 7 will be very similar to Vista.

#5 pecd.net

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 07:13 AM

@psc

VistaPE is just another PE, it has very little to do with those annoying "features" that make most of us dislike Vista.

From the PE point of view i think VistaPE has several advantages compared to a normal pe1.x, but it still needs work...

#6 yahoouk

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 06:23 PM

I've seen one in web, and tried it but A43 file manager is not working for me.
It seems to be build by BartPE.
Uploaded file failed as unavailable upload directory.
Nuno, please check for me, thanks.

yahooUK

#7 pscEx

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 08:15 PM

@psc

VistaPE is just another PE, it has very little to do with those annoying "features" that make most of us dislike Vista.

From the PE point of view i think VistaPE has several advantages compared to a normal pe1.x, but it still needs work...


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I'm rather sure that an ingenous script writer can create a CD with comparable contents on a XP source base.

Peter

#8 pecd.net

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 08:49 AM

well, 90% should be possible with XP PE but there will be some things that can't be done under XP

#9 MedEvil

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:17 PM

Cool! Would love to hear about the 10%.
Maybe then VistaPE would make sense to me too. :cheers:

;)

#10 pecd.net

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:36 PM

Just a few that came into my mind without much investigation:

- ever used VistaRecoveryEnvironment under XP PE :-) (really handy when fixing vista systems, especially when using msdart 6 (also needed for troubleshooting vista systems)
- ever used the new dynamic Volumes (not the ones that exist in XP) under XP PE?
- ever got an nforce lan driver working that works on all nforce boards under XP PE?
- can you build xp based PE from completely free downloadbale sources like VPE is done from server 2008?

Just to make it clear: i love my xp based discs and i will not yet stop using them, but sometimes a vista based disc has some advantages.

#11 MedEvil

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 01:03 PM

Well i can build from win2k3, which is free to download.
Also the nforce thing i don't quite get, do you mean really one driver for all lan or would a set of nforce drivers be good enough. Cause the later works quite well.

Your other points seem to be valid, but then i have no experience with Vista. :cheers:

;)

#12 Nuno Brito

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 01:42 PM

Don't forget about FBWF features which are so handy to use or the differences between NTFS versions that *might (?)* corrupt your file systems.

Also, Windows PE 2.x comes ready out of the box for RAM boot which is easier to use at CD/DVD, USB pendisks or PXE LAN boot.

----------

Would be fun to give a shot at building "our" Windows 7 from source.

:cheers:

#13 MedEvil

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 04:43 PM

FBWF has worked for PE 1.x long before it worked for VistaPE! :cheers:
And for NTFS 6.0 in XP is a patch available, as far as i know.

Ramboot is really a drawback for XP based builds, but not for Win2k3 based builds. Though, i still don't understand, why it won't work with XP, especialy since it was planed for as one can read in ntldr and setupldr. ;)

:cheers:

#14 Nuno Brito

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 06:09 PM

Yes, I know it worked but I meant working as an out-of-the-box feature instead of joining several pieces of software from other MS developments.

It's legal to use WinPE 2.x from WAIK for free but you can't say the same with miscellaneous licenses from Windows Embedded, Windows XP and Windows 2003 (trial) where a license must be purchased and certain features like FBWF are very specific to certain products that they have designated.

:cheers:

#15 MedEvil

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 08:59 PM

Unfortunately, the license to use WAIK is also restrictive enough to make a PE of our style illegal.

I stumbled across this, when i had the idea for a 'free Windows'. It was meant to be assembled of only freely and legaly downloadable parts.
However freely and legaly downloadable, does unfortunately not mean freely and legaly usable. ;)

:cheers:

#16 Nuno Brito

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 09:06 PM

eheh.. I understand you really well.. ;)

--

A question to the audience: Is there any MS-law that prevents us from building a running windows OS without using their in-house install process? :cheers:

#17 Lancelot

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:05 PM

well, 90% should be possible with XP PE but there will be some things that can't be done under XP


- ever got an nforce lan driver working that works on all nforce boards under XP PE?

on the other hand, nforce lan drivers can be prepared (and already prepared) for all nforce boards (defined in dps package), and already we have script which automatically selects and installs :cheers:

- can you build xp based PE from completely free downloadbale sources like VPE is done from server 2008?

Yes, as MedEvil pointed out, 2k3sp1 and 2k3sp2

also there are utilities that take drivers from vista (x86 - x64) which are used with pe1. And i saw driver injection utility (that works with also pe1) to vista yesterday and there will be similar projects coming soon, well i am not a vista fun and dont use vista.


besides about this %10, new ntfs is not supported by pe1 which doesnt make trouble for accessing files but Vista Symbolic links and junctions cannot be understandable by pe (or xp), lets see what will happen ;).


- ever used VistaRecoveryEnvironment under XP PE :-) (really handy when fixing vista systems, especially when using msdart 6 (also needed for troubleshooting vista systems)

nope, but i used vista recovery for a friend, yep handful.
i have MSDaRT60_x86.msi , is there a way to use with livexp or bartpe !? if there is can you give me a direction??


And for NTFS 6.0 in XP is a patch available, as far as i know.

Where is it??

Ramboot is really a drawback for XP based builds, but not for Win2k3 based builds. Though, i still don't understand, why it won't work with XP, especialy since it was planed for as one can read in ntldr and setupldr. :cheers:

Sorry for my english, can you confirm this: You say iso files created with source2k3 dont work with ramboot? (ramdisk.sys iso boot)

#18 JonF

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 11:41 PM

i have MSDaRT60_x86.msi , is there a way to use with livexp or bartpe !? if there is can you give me a direction??

There is no known way. The problem is sort of like setting target_root but much more difficult. It only runs once the proper conditions are established, and they are a lot more than environment variables. Only Billy knows what the needs are. Only the WIndows Vista Recovery Environment establishes the proper conditions. And getting that to run in LiveXP or equivalent is similar to getting MSDaRT to run in LiveXP.

#19 MedEvil

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:06 AM

Where is it??

The usual place at M$, i presume. Should also be in SP3.

Sorry for my english, can you confirm this: You say iso files created with source2k3 dont work with ramboot? (ramdisk.sys iso boot)

No! Misunderstanding!!!
PE build from pure XP source can not ramboot. But when you read inside ntldr and setupldr, you will find references to a ramboot.
So it was appearantly planed at some point and then droped for some reason.

:cheers:

#20 Lancelot

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:25 AM

JonF
Thank you for information

MedEvil

you will find references to a ramboot.
So it was appearantly planed at some point and then droped for some reason.

Yep i remember that, and now understand what you mean.

The usual place at M$, i presume. Should also be in SP3.

So you say, xpsp3 can read symbolic links and junctions of ntfs6 ! example: you have vista (normally installed) on 2nd harddisk, and with xpsp3 hostos you are using, you can easly get right info about symbolic links and junctions on 2nd disk's vista partition.

If so It will be hard for me to try that, i add to my todo list :cheers:

#21 MedEvil

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:41 AM

Don't know about junktion specificly, but the patch allowed XP to read/write Vista created partitions.

:cheers:

#22 Lancelot

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 12:49 AM

Don't know about junktion specificly, but the patch allowed XP to read/write Vista created partitions.

;)


ah, there is no problem with read/write of vista created partitions medevil :cheers:
here are pictures:
with livexp http://img50.imagesh...allivexpkb9.png
with vista http://img146.images...ralvistaks3.png
as you see livexp dont know symlinkd, and also (not seen on picture) livexp dont understand where junction is pointed to
:cheers:
(vista users know this more closely when they try livexp to access disk)
anyway, it is totally a different subject :cheers: and besides this as i wrote before all files accesable.

Thanks for all info you gave so far.

#23 Nuno Brito

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 11:54 AM

Any volunteers to start the experiments? :)

#24 yahoouk

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:11 PM

Tested last week with VistaPE v.12.
More than thousand files are not copied to destination folder.
Mainly WinSxS folder is empty.
File version 6.0000 and 6.1.7000 would be problematic, I suppose.
No success.
NightMan is preparing for this one, I believe.

Regards,

yahooUK

#25 pscEx

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:25 PM

Tested last week with VistaPE v.12.
More than thousand files are not copied to destination folder.
Mainly WinSxS folder is empty.
File version 6.0000 and 6.1.7000 would be problematic, I suppose.
No success.
NightMan is preparing for this one, I believe.

Regards,

yahooUK

Mabe independent from file version, this is applicable:

ctmag found that build of vistape on a NTFS drive is error free, but the PE will not run.
We are working on that.
I made a feature add in winbuilder to get the drive's file system type.
ctmag is writing the check snippet.

Peter




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