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#1 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:25 PM

Hi all, Fabio here, from Italy.

44 old, very interested in software even thought much more into hardware modding.

Worked for years into repairing cellular phones, now into other stuffs, but always fashinated from all electronis things, lol.

Hope all You GURUS finally will solve the usb booting from non supporting bios and ....xp full autolearning :cheers: :cheers:


See you on forum.

p.s. i am ok with soldering and modding, if any help in this way is needed for debugging, don't hesitate to ask

#2 amalux

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:47 PM

Hello fabiobassa and welcome to the forum!! :cheers:

Hope all You GURUS finally will solve the usb booting from non supporting bios and ....xp full autolearning

Please explain what you are trying to do with more details :cheers:

#3 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 06:33 PM

Hello amalux, many thanks for your quick replay.

well I'm trying to go crazy, lol !!!

no, just kidding, I have a problem that I suppose have many ppl:

my notebook has broken hard disk and broken hard disk controller. I DON'T want a live cd running some linux distro's, but i want a XP system. Unfortunately my notebook doesn't support usb direct booting.

I am in a good stage of knowing, since i boot my notebbok from cd with usbaspy.sys and dd1000.sys and i gain access to my usb stick, where is a XP system.
this XP system is bootable and works fine on other pc, it is made with Dietmar tutorials 3-5 !!!

My problem is chainloader the dos from cd to XP on usb.

I am trying to follow the tutorial 7 of Dietmar since plop doesn't work for me.

Before posting I thing had spent 2 or 3 weeks learning as much as possible and I know I am very near to solution, but would be such a great thing an automated procedure to do this.
At my stage I didn't yet boot my xp on stick, I have to try with fake mbr signature ( right now trying with ultra edit :cheers: :cheers: )

Well second stage will be, quite sure avoid the bsod that sometimes happen when the usb stick load all drivers from one pc differnt from the other, but this is a second stage.

For now need booting xp on usb from a non usb bios. Not interested in spped, in nothing, just run XP on stick :cheers: :cheers:

Well if do you think I am wrong in the approach, would you be so kind to point me n the right direction.

well before to post I read quite all 911cd and bootland posts, but really is a great effort since is a so wide discussion.

Many regard, Fabio

#4 amalux

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 06:46 PM

Fabio, please see tutorial here for LiveXP loaded to RAM from CD, you may find this is exactly what you need - looks and feels like XP and works great! I am not aware of a way to boot USB if the BIOS truly does not support it, however, look at the section in this same tutorial on booting From UFD, USB etc. and confirm you tried this method exactly as shown :cheers:

#5 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 06:50 PM

Oh so MANY THANKS, I wa so focused on booting from cd to usb that never even considerated this.

Will have a look and will confirm is this is what I need.

Thanks amalux :cheers: :cheers:

Fabio

#6 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:07 PM

Ok amalux, many thanks for the suggestion but no, live xp isn't what I am looking for.

I want a full xp working as from hd, but staying on the usb.

I have one for my asus eeepc and it is just real XP on usb stick, not a live xp-cd

So I know full xp is working on usb ;-)

Just I need to boot this usb from not working bios.

By the way, interesting project yours :-)

Fabio

#7 MedEvil

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:11 PM

fabiobassa, since you seem to be bit more geek than usual. There is a solution to enable USB boot on a computer which does not support it.
If the computer in question uses an Award BIOS or there is an Award BIOS available for it.

There exist al least 3 tools that allow to 'build' a 'own' Award BIOS.
Just include USB Boot in your BIOS and if that makes it too big. Throw something, you don't use, out.

Now for the part, where i want something from you. :cheers:
Have an old Laptop with a broken soldering point on the GPU. Now i can't go with the soldering needle and heat up every point, especialy with those multilayer boards.
How did you do something like that in your job, or didn't you?

:cheers:


PS: Full XP only from USB-HDD never from USB-Stick!

#8 was_jaclaz

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:24 PM

I am not aware of a way to boot USB if the BIOS truly does not support it ....


Hmmm, :cheers: you haven't payed enough attention :cheers: the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" or "Chainboot other MBR boot device" have been mentioned more than once on boot-land....


Read these:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242
http://www.911cd.net...o...21242&st=64
http://www.911cd.net...o...c=21939&hl=

http://ubcd4win.com/...showtopic=11375
then you won't be able to say you are unaware. :cheers:

Please note that this also makes booting on BIOS that support USB, but only at USB 1.1 speed, MUCH faster, and this applies also to PE builds:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21965

Finally I managed to test the fake signature booting from USB HDD itself. Following are the results:

Laptop L1 with BIOS booting with USB 1.x speed:
1) Using fake signature method (chainboot.img):
Time to get XP logo: 4'10"
Time to get desktop background: 4'30"
Time to get full desktop: 5'5"

1) Using direct /minint/setupldr.bin invocation:
Time to get XP logo: 9'33"
Time to get desktop background: 9'55"
Time to get full desktop: 10'33"


jaclaz

#9 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:24 PM

PS: Full XP only from USB-HDD never from USB-Stick!

Why u say this?

My asus EEEpc-xp is a full XPfrom xp slipstreamed with sp3 and stays on usb-stick, not usb-hdd .
I know your observation: it was first installed on internal ssd of asus and then cloned on usb stick, it is true, but it is still a full xp and it is on usb stick!!!!

If the computer in question uses an Award BIOS or there is an Award BIOS available for it.

I thought to hack the bios but the pc is old GEO ???? and the very fist thing to do is read wich bios uses, and i have to do this from a cd bootable. I will have this try too...



Have an old Laptop with a broken soldering point on the GPU. Now i can't go with the soldering needle and heat up every point, especialy with those multilayer boards.
How did you do something like that in your job, or didn't you?


Bad bad situation: well I used to have schematics for my phones so I can follow the route and eventually make a bridge.

And/or use hot air and flux , and not at all soldering iron , also because the needle of soldering iron was too big for the pins, even if it was just 0,8 millimeters ( pardon, don't know the conversion of such small dimension in inches).
Alternatively if it is a false contact working/not working, use something to make compression and insure the contct .
What is your situation-fault??????


fabiobassa, since you seem to be bit more geek than usual

Thank you, I am clever, but unfortunately MUST learn so much :-)

Thank you, please stay in touch :-)

Fabio

#10 was_jaclaz

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:48 PM

Have an old Laptop with a broken soldering point on the GPU. Now i can't go with the soldering needle and heat up every point, especialy with those multilayer boards.
How did you do something like that in your job, or didn't you?


Google for "re-flow bga" or "re-flow GPU" "bga rework" and similar (without quotes)

Basic DIY's:
http://www.greenbird.../reflow_toaster
http://www.instructa...-Soldering-BGA/
http://forum.thinkpa...pic.php?t=57021

Video's:



It's a "hit and miss" game.
In some cases (and I recommend at least trying it if you have a detachable GPU board) an oven with temperatures as low as 150÷180 C worked:
http://www.commentca...orce-fx-go-5700

Unlike whatever you read in more casual "guides", board should be pre-heated by keeping it in an oven to remove ANY trace of hunidity.

It is a GREAT risk, depending on the value you attribute to your hardware, otherwise you will need a re-balling service:
http://www.etech-web...a_reballing.htm
and a professional re-flow
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXkKVxEE7bA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XoPG9xtsCQ

DON'T EVEN THINK of using these methods:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Coozv2DdE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT_xuSI-gDw

:cheers:

jaclaz

#11 MedEvil

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:49 PM

PS: Full XP only from USB-HDD never from USB-Stick!

Why u say this?

USB-Sticks can't take as many write cycles as a HDD and a normal XP does a lot of writing back to 'disk'.


Have an old Laptop with a broken soldering point on the GPU. Now i can't go with the soldering needle and heat up every point, especialy with those multilayer boards.
How did you do something like that in your job, or didn't you?



Bad bad situation: well I used to have schematics for my phones so I can follow the route and eventually make a bridge.

And/or use hot air and flux , and not at all soldering iron , also because the needle of soldering iron was too big for the pins, even if it was just 0,8 millimeters ( pardon, don't know the conversion of such small dimension in inches).
Alternatively if it is a false contact working/not working, use something to make compression and insure the contct .
What is your situation-fault??????

The problem lies in starting the Laptop. Once it runs it runs without fault. But starting it, is a major pain in the behind. With a lot of shaking and pushing here anf there, i get it to start every 1 out of 10 times.
Took it apart and tryed to fix the broken soldering point.
I know now that it's on the GPU, but all GPU soldering points look fine. :cheers:


:cheers:

#12 MedEvil

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:02 PM

Thanks jaclaz, will take me a while to go through all your links. As usual. :cheers:
The Laptop has no real value to me. It's sitting on a shelf for the better part of this year.
It's just, it annoys me that i know what's wrong and can't do anything about it.

I just want to fix that bug, even if i throw the Laptop afterwards into the bin.

I swear to you, if i look real quick, i can see that bug grinning at me from the shelf! :cheers:

:cheers:

#13 amalux

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:04 PM

Hmmm, :cheers: you haven't payed enough attention :cheers: the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" or "Chainboot other MBR boot device" have been mentioned more than once on boot-land....


Read these:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242
http://www.911cd.net...o...21242&st=64
http://www.911cd.net...o...c=21939&hl=

http://ubcd4win.com/...showtopic=11375
then you won't be able to say you are unaware. :cheers:

Please note that this also makes booting on BIOS that support USB, but only at USB 1.1 speed, MUCH faster, and this applies also to PE builds:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21965


jaclaz

Sorry, should have added:

I am not aware of a way to boot USB if the BIOS truly does not support it but Jaclaz will know a way!

:cheers:

:cheers:

#14 MedEvil

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:28 PM

OK, two questions.
1. What exactly is reballing? Can't figure it out from the videos.
2. Flux? Is this some new solder replacement?

:cheers:

#15 MedEvil

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:17 PM

Damn, am i out of date! :cheers:
Those chips are surface mounted! I thought they still had their little legs, as i could see the soldering spots from the other side of the board.
Now i understand, why so many laptops have problems with broken contacts!

And Flux is then simply the stuff one uses to make the solder flow better, right?

Thanks for a great insight!

Be aware bug! :cheers:

:cheers:


PS: How is this with chip sockets these days? Also surface mounted?

#16 fabiobassa

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 10:49 PM

LOLOL starting from one topic, jumping to another ;-)

Ok let's start from my question:

@jaclaz
I've read quite all boot-land , 911cd, chainload other mbr, but as I told I'm very ok with hardware, bit less with software, and , as you can see , there is an ocean of infos and instead we/you should find an universal solution to do it..... not a critical point of view, just frustrating being so close to the solution and cannot achieve it
:cheers:

My actual solution with very easy floppy based cd and aspy.sys and dd1000.sys ; I boot notebook from cd , plug the usb stick and surf in it in dos mode, I see directories, see all but of course cannot start ntldr or nothing else . I tried also loading grub4dos, but this is a well known issue that grub4dos destroys the usb drivers just loaded.
I tried another approach, to buils a very basic kernel on a floppy with usb support, load grub and chainload the ntldr, but linux isn't so familiar to ma as dos.
Jaclaz , you posted many links and again I will follow them , but really is needed a condensation in one big tutorial :cheers:


@MedDevil

It is frustating, too, all these damned surface mounted devices call j-smd or bga , without even legs, but just spots soldered on board.
Here u need some flux=liquid that facilitates the melting of soldering materials and hot air or even infrared soldering stations

http://www.planet-te...?...=1&Itemid=1

but of course you must evaluate the effort and the spent for such things.

But starting from your description of faul it seem that is something correlated to booting; well, if it was the graphical unit or ram unit or something else, the defective contact have caused you a randomely hanging system, and instead you say that when it boots ( if it boots) then no problems.

Can I suggest?? It seem to me more a fault related to the power button ( don't know if electrical fault or mechanical fault) that will address the cpu to start so i would investigate in this direction.

For now is enough, tomorrow will follow all jaclaz suggestions and let you know my state of art ,lol

Fabio

p.s.

http://www.911cd.net...o...21242&st=64

is exactly the tutorial I want to follow, but some problems with fake signature, since not described all steps in deep.
I understand this is a great work and in some manner could be destructive for a BIG COMPANY, but a bit more of step by step instructions would be great.
tomorrow will test
fabio

#17 MedEvil

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:08 AM

But starting from your description of faul it seem that is something correlated to booting; well, if it was the graphical unit or ram unit or something else, the defective contact have caused you a randomely hanging system, and instead you say that when it boots ( if it boots) then no problems.

Can I suggest?? It seem to me more a fault related to the power button ( don't know if electrical fault or mechanical fault) that will address the cpu to start so i would investigate in this direction.

:cheers: Thanks for the hint, but i'm not that out of touch with reality. I hope! :cheers:
The fans start running and the HDD and DVD-drive reset just fine, when i press the power button. It's just that the laptop won't boot. CPU and RAM are checked and work fine in another computer.
My first idea was that somehow the start impulse has a problem, like that the rising edge isn't steep enough.
But the most success in starting the Laptop, did i have when applying presure to the GPU.

But let's say the more logical way were true. Any clever idea how to check/rule out a electrical problem with the 'power button'?

:cheers:

#18 fabiobassa

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:12 AM

laugh.gif Thanks for the hint, but i'm not that out of touch with reality. I hope! laugh.gif


Lol, didn't mean to offend you in any manner, lol

Well I want describe a similar situation of one of my notebooks:

on 100 times I boot it, 50% wont boot saying the bios address bla bla bla it is corrupted . Infact this laptop has broken backup battery/circuit ( I don't know and don't want to investigate, lol )

But it I continue to boot-reboot-straboot first or lately it boots. Well, nothing related to a faulty contact, just a crazy behaviour ( if the bios is corrupted, shouldn't boot anymore, right?? ). Well I am QUITE sure that this depends on a electrolitic condenser that sometimes do its work, sometimes no because it is old and the acid liquid inside is dry

If so, have you ever try to don't push any part of the laptop and boot it several times until it boots? ( if boots, when boots ... )
Sorry if I seem obviously, but I haven't your laptop in my hands so I am trying to do a distance-investigation, lol

And a crazy thing, but trying will cost nothing for you : take a hair drying machine, put it with highest temperature and lowest fan speed and try a general warming of the mother board than smell it : it it comes a horrible fish-like smell, well , you definetly have a faulty electrolic condenser :cheers: :cheers:

The fans start running and the HDD and DVD-drive reset just fine...............................

My first idea was that somehow the start impulse has a problem, like that the rising edge isn't steep enough.


This is why I am thinking to an electrolitic conderser on the cpu side, not on general powering manage.
You know general power has 5 or 12 volts, and -5 and -12 , but cpu has 3,3 volts so it doesn't mean nothing that fan and hard disk and dvd reset, if the the cpu doesn't addressed with right voltage.
About the condenser , if it is dry won't let the voltage rise up to step level of starting the cpu and some watdog circuit will hold the cpu in a non starting situation.

The telephone e.g.won't boot itself if doesn't receive a feedback from pll circuit, but as you can see it isn't a cpu problem, but a pll problem ;-)

Just an hint, my 2 cents thought. :cheers:

Fabio

p.s. regarding the booting of usb I have a crazy idea to tell to the board, but I am hanging here

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21242

and exactly here

http://www.911cd.net...&...st&p=143842

because I have a strange mbr of the image, but I will continue this tread in the appropriate one.

Here I am for further investigations on your faulty pc MedEvil

:cheers:

#19 was_jaclaz

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 09:07 AM

@Medevil
Reballing balls:
http://www.4utools.c...info.asp?id=968

Reballing "masks" or "stencils":
http://www.bgareball.../,2,XURB-S.html
http://www.winslowau...ion.com/bga.asp

Reballing procedure:
http://www.circuitre...des/9-3-1.shtml
http://www.simmteste...ews.asp?num=152
http://www.wonderhow...-faster-191488/


FULL example in 11 short video's:
http://www.youtube.c...&...MEAC&page=3

Flux is a generally acid compound (liquid or paste) that helps in preventing oxidation of solder, more or less the same thing that is inside "normal" soldering:
http://en.wikipedia....lux_core_solder

@fabiobassa

Unfortunately I am afraid that Medevil is right, it is quite common that the "stupid" BGA of the GPU has been unproperly fluxed in the factory, due to a "wrong" process or "bad" quality solder balls.
Known troublemakers (we are talking of thousands of "defective machines") are typically:
X-Boxes 360 (ring of death):
http://en.wikipedia....hnical_problems
(that's probably the main reason why re-fluxing and re-balling "entered" the DIY field)
IBM T41's
nvidia geForce go5200/5700 (lots of Acer Aspire notebooks)
i-macs (some models only)


Now, back to topic, the "XP Kansas City shuffle" is not at all difficult to do, expecially now that a couple of batches take out the "difficult" work.
If I were you I would try first making one on fully working hardware.
Forget about DOS, DOS USB drivers, and the like.
The idea is to have grub4dos "mem mount" a "local" (i.e. HD or CD, NOT through USB bus connected) "kicker" disk.
This "kicker" will start loading XP AND it's USB drivers, then the "shuffle" will take place and the "rest" of XP will be loaded through the USB bus.
Of course, your mileage may vary.

jaclaz

#20 fabiobassa

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:15 AM

@ jaclaz

I wrote to you in private and beg pardon for this, but speak Italian is sure better for me, lol

Jaclaz, I have my usb already working and all I have to is boot it from non usb support.

the fake signature seems the best way to do it, but I am stalled with the mbr's checksum and swapping bytes.

My f: virtual hard disk that then produces the xp.img has strange mbr.

I will post it because I am stuck on that

Fabio

@MedEvil

did you thing a bad contact could ever create a so wide post, lol ????

Fabio

#21 MedEvil

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 01:31 PM

I did check the capacitors first. Non blown or showing a bend top or any sign that electrolyte has been running out.
The Laptop in question is 5 years old. When just switching it on without doing anything else, it eighter always starts or never.
When pushing the start button, fans start running, HDD and DVD-Drive reset, but that's it!!!
There is no error message, no beep, no slowing down of fans, no nothing.
btw. If i remove the CPU, absolutely nothing happens. Not even the fans start running

Unfortunately I am afraid that Medevil is right, it is quite common that the "stupid" BGA of the GPU has been unproperly fluxed in the factory, due to a "wrong" process or "bad" quality solder balls.

I didn't knew about that, but i know that a defective graphics card is the only thing that can stop, an otherwise fine working PC, from even running the POST routine.

did you thing a bad contact could ever create a so wide post, lol ????

Sure, it's always the small things that get you into the most trouble! :cheers:

Just out of curiousity how are the CPU sockets soldered in? They don't look like they can take that kind of heat.


Last but not least:
After reading many tutorials and watching a lot of videos, the one point that annoys me is, that i have still no clue what times, what temperatures to use.
Some recommend as little as 180°C while others recommend over 300°C. :cheers:
Even worst is it, when it comes to times. Some use slow heating procedures that take in excess of 30 min, while others claim one should use around 5 min, but never more than 10min!
Yet some videos show people doing it in less than half a minute. :cheers:

Easiest would be, if there were a way to know when the solder is liquefied. Any clever ideas on that part?


:cheers:

#22 fabiobassa

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 01:39 PM

I did check the capacitors first. Non blown or showing a bend top or any sign that electrolyte has been running out.
The Laptop in question is 5 years old. When just switching it on without doing anything else, it eighter always starts or never.
When pushing the start button, fans start running, HDD and DVD-Drive reset, but that's it!!!
There is no error message, no beep, no slowing down of fans, no nothing.
btw. If i remove the CPU, absolutely nothing happens. Not even the fans start running


I didn't knew about that, but i know that a defective graphics card is the only thing that can stop, an otherwise fine working PC, from even running the POST routine.


Sure, it's always the small things that get you into the most trouble! :cheers:

Just out of curiousity how are the CPU sockets soldered in? They don't look like they can take that kind of heat.


Last but not least:
After reading many tutorials and watching a lot of videos, the one point that annoys me is, that i have still no clue what times, what temperatures to use.
Some recommend as little as 180°C while others recommend over 300°C. :cheers:
Even worst is it, when it comes to times. Some use slow heating procedures that take in excess of 30 min, while others claim one should use around 5 min, but never more than 10min!
Yet some videos show people doing it in less than half a minute. :cheers:

Easiest would be, if there were a way to know when the solder is liquefied. Any clever ideas on that part?


:cheers:

Asolutely a way that warms the whole main board with normal heat ( could be a normal hair drying machine) from bottom and infrared from top, 180 % 190 celsius for about 20 % 30 minutes .
If you do it very quick it means a lot of warm and a lot of warm means the pads boiling and the bga moving on them as a surfer on the wave......

And isn't true that a pc doesn't start only for the graphic card, it doesnt' start until all the watchdogs line are ALL down or ALL up dependendig from the logic.
Also a a randomely not working ram or an hard disk watchdog controller will hang the cup from totally booting, even if teh hard disk spins.

Fanio

#23 was_jaclaz

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:46 PM

Last but not least:
After reading many tutorials and watching a lot of videos, the one point that annoys me is, that i have still no clue what times, what temperatures to use.
Some recommend as little as 180°C while others recommend over 300°C. :cheers:
Even worst is it, when it comes to times. Some use slow heating procedures that take in excess of 30 min, while others claim one should use around 5 min, but never more than 10min!
Yet some videos show people doing it in less than half a minute. :cheers:


First link gives a good profile:
Posted Image

There is NO way to be more accurate unless you know EXACTLY which alloy has been used, older LEAD based alloys had lower temps, around 180 C, newish LEAD-free ones have higher ones:
http://www.zeph.com/...and_lead-f.html

I like to call ANYTHING more than 225 C SUICIDE.

180 C is generally the "low" end of alloys, typically components allow for three or four reflows MAXIMUM, thus a good approach would be trying with something like 190 to 195 C first, and if it does not work, AFTER a COMPLETE, SLOW, cooling down cycle, try again with a bit higher peak.

Keeping the component on the high end of "normal" board life temperatures (around 50 C) for some time (several tens of minutes) in an oven may help in removing ANY trace of humidity BEFORE attempting a re-flow, using a common hair drier works as well, expecially as you can pre-pre-heat just a smaller zone.

Heating (and cooling) ramps need to be SLOW, according to typical profile above.
MAX:2+2+1.5 minutes
MIN:1+1+0.5 minutes
Typical=MIN

A reflowing cycle cannot be shorter than 2 minutes, if you care about the components, it is easier to crack something due to thermal shock than to actually "melt" something.

jaclaz

#24 fabiobassa

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:50 PM

I like to call ANYTHING more than 225 C SUICIDE.


Yep, I agree totally.

off topic:

what a strange kind of person are we: we could buy a new laptop , but no, we must fight against a faulty pc (medevil) and me against a boot record just for saying

gotcha

lol

#25 MedEvil

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:26 PM

what a strange kind of person are we: we could buy a new laptop , but no, we must fight against a faulty pc (medevil) and me against a boot record just for saying

gotcha

The really sad part is, that i already have bought the replacement. :cheers:

:cheers:




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