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Booting Windows 98 SE from external USB hard disk


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#1 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 04:53 AM

Hello,

I just tried to install and run Windows 98 SE to/from external USB hard disk. Surprisingly everything works well, no dreaded BSOD 0x7B as with NT/XP/Vista. Thanks to bearwindows's Universal Video driver http://www.boot-land...hp?showforum=60 I am not limited to standard VGA 640x480.

Remained items:
- network card
- NTFS support: this is done with the now free read/write NTFS for Windows 98 from Winternals.
- USB 2.0 support
- service packs
- sound card

There is a great support forum for Win9x at MSFN board.

Question : why Win9x does not have problem (BSOD 0x7B) booting from USB HDD ?

#2 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:29 AM

Update:
Bad news, to install USB 2.0 (I had a yellow question mark named PCI Universal Serial Bus item in Device manager), I have to extract the USB HDD from its enclosure and make it internal IDE disk. As IDE hard disk, no problem to install USB 2.0 drivers, and hot plug/unplug works very well.

Then I put the hard disk again to external USB hard disk enclosure, and boot the USB HDD. Boom! Win88 SE hang at the logo screen after some hard disk access. I guess this is the 'hara-kiri" symptom (loading USB 2.0 driver while currently using USB 2 hard disk). Booting in safe mode did work though.

So it looks like that I may need some similar trick as with XP/Vista to tweak the registry/inf (?) to load USB drivers early (boot bus extender, Start=0) ?

Any help is much appreciated.

#3 TheHive

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:38 AM

Sound like good news in being able to install it on USB.
What about USB stick.

#4 amalux

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:24 AM

Hello,

I just tried to install and run Windows 98 SE to/from external USB hard disk. Surprisingly everything works well, no dreaded BSOD 0x7B as with NT/XP/Vista. Thanks to bearwindows's Universal Video driver http://www.boot-land...hp?showforum=60 I am not limited to standard VGA 640x480.

Remained items:
- network card
- NTFS support: this is done with the now free read/write NTFS for Windows 98 from Winternals.
- USB 2.0 support
- service packs
- sound card

There is a great support forum for Win9x at MSFN board.

Question : why Win9x does not have problem (BSOD 0x7B) booting from USB HDD ?

There's a way around that BSOD talked about here under More Advanced Options: Setting up a UFD boot disk. :lol:

#5 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 10:33 AM

@amalux
Thank you, but my subject deals with Windows 98 SE, not for XP !

#6 was_jaclaz

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 10:38 AM

- NTFS support: this is done with the now free read/write NTFS for Windows 98 from Winternals.


Didn't know that.
Have you got a link?

Question : why Win9x does not have problem (BSOD 0x7B) booting from USB HDD ?


Because it has NOT a HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) and thus can use BIOS services directly, without a driver.

jaclaz

#7 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 01:08 PM

@jaclaz
Well the information link is:
http://articles.tech...49-1047598.html

Unfortunately I did not write out the download link, but there are many links found with Google.
Version 1.03ro is read-only, there is another version 2.0 with read-write, without any registration or code asked during setup.
If I can find it I wil update this post, but for sure I found it by using Google.

#8 was_jaclaz

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 01:31 PM

@jaclaz
Well the information link is:
http://articles.tech...49-1047598.html

Unfortunately I did not write out the download link, but there are many links found with Google.
Version 1.03ro is read-only, there is another version 2.0 with read-write, without any registration or code asked during setup.
If I can find it I wil update this post, but for sure I found it by using Google.


I'll try to rephrase, you wrote:

- NTFS support: this is done with the now free read/write NTFS for Windows 98 from Winternals.


that is the part I did not know about, and for which I would like a link as a confirmation, as far as I know the READ ONLY driver is, and has been ALWAYS freeware from sysinternals, whilst the READ/WRITE version has been (till now? :lol:) a Commercial Software from Winternals, that has not been available separately from ERD Commander (or other Winternals tools) in the last few years.
I do own an original copy/license for it dating back to 2000 or 2001, and sure I can find, should I want to, the READ/WRITE driver on some sites I won't mention, point is whether it has been releeased as Free/Freeware/Open Source/Public Domain or whatever.

The fact that it asks not for registration or keycode during install means nothing with regards to its licensing status.

jaclaz

#9 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 02:29 PM

The fact that it asks not for registration or keycode during install means nothing with regards to its licensing status.


You are right. From the online help and any kind of About screen I did not see anything about freeware usage. So I uninstall then re-install it to read carefully the license agreement (several pages) displayed at start of installation. The copyright year is xxxx-2002, No mention of freeware was found, only some mentions about ERD Commander, 10 seats etc... So it looks like that the version I download is not freeware. Probably in one Google link I found free download instead of freeware (as often these links try to cheat you between free download and freeware status). This also explain why we can found much more Google links about read-only versions (official freeware) and the read-write one.

So I uninstall the software, and delete the download files without any problem, since I only want to try booting Win98 from USB HDD for my own experimentation (fun), there is no real need for accessing NTFS, at least no write need.

#10 amalux

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 03:53 PM

@amalux
Thank you, but my subject deals with Windows 98 SE, not for XP !


...no dreaded BSOD 0x7B as with NT/XP/Vista.


Didn't want you to think you were stuck with 98 :lol:

#11 was_jaclaz

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 05:33 PM

So I uninstall the software, and delete the download files without any problem, since I only want to try booting Win98 from USB HDD for my own experimentation (fun), there is no real need for accessing NTFS, at least no write need.


However, the Datapol, then Avira, now unsupported NTFS4DOS does work in a DOS prompt, and it is freeware for personal use, so a full read/write access is possible as well, though unfortunately only through command line:
http://www.free-av.c...s_personal.html

jaclaz

#12 ktp

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 08:15 PM

Because it has NOT a HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) and thus can use BIOS services directly, without a driver.

jaclaz


How can BartPE be booted from USB HDD (without using iso/sdi) without getting BSOD 0x7B? BartPE is NT/XP-based so it has HAL isn't it ?

#13 was_jaclaz

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 09:39 AM

How can BartPE be booted from USB HDD (without using iso/sdi) without getting BSOD 0x7B? BartPE is NT/XP-based so it has HAL isn't it ?


Because it "automagically" loads the needed drivers at boot time.

Also a "full" XP can be booted allright from USB device, provided you install to it the appropriate drivers, as Dietmar found out:
www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=14181

jaclaz

#14 ktp

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:15 PM

@jaclaz

Because it "automagically" loads the needed drivers at boot time.


Ah OK I understand now that this is the real trick. Much like Linux distribution where USB module are loaded first (using small initrd.gz/kernel for example), then these USB drivers (usually 2.0) are used at high speed to load the remaining needed data, continuing boot process. So no 'hara-kiri' situation.

Same as the mechanism to load XP/Vista USB-based drivrers very early by changing their start group (start=0, Group=Base bus extender) as manually in http://www.ngine.de/article/id/8 or automatically with http://www.usboot.org.

Note that Linux initrd/kernel together are small (about 5MB) so even with BIOS only supporting booting at slow USB 1.0/1.1 speed, there is not too much delay observed. For XP/Vista, booting process is much slower since apparently the loaded USB 2.0 drivers are used only after loading all other needed drivers and OS files, causing very slow booting process on machine which BIOS supporting only booting at USB 1.x speed.

#15 BTaylor

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 07:43 PM

Hiya mate, just wondering how you pulled this off... Did you just run the windows 98 cd and select the usb drive as an install source? (I doubt it, what with 98 not supporting usb drives out of the box)

If you could fill me in, that'd be nice, I really need to boot windows 98 but want it to be portable.

#16 ktp

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 04:25 AM

Hiya mate, just wondering how you pulled this off... Did you just run the windows 98 cd and select the usb drive as an install source? (I doubt it, what with 98 not supporting usb drives out of the box)

If you could fill me in, that'd be nice, I really need to boot windows 98 but want it to be portable.


It is Win98 SE, not Win98, so it could be of importance. Yes, I disconnect my internal IDE hard disk, plug only the external USB hard disk, then boot from Win98 SE CD, that install to the external USB hard disk. This works flawlessly : Win98 SE then boots OK directly from the USB hard disk, but with USB 1.x speed.

#17 TheHive

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:49 AM

You can try the

Unofficial Windows 98 SE Service Pack 2.1
http://exuberant.ms11.net/98sesp.html

This is *only* for WINDOWS 98 SECOND EDITION ENGLISH

It contains only operating system updates. It does NOT contain Internet Explorer 6, DirectX 9, Media Player 9 and their updates.



or

Maximus Decim Native USB ver.3.3

Maximus Decim Native USB ver.3.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Native (without installation of additional drivers for each type) support USB flash drives, digital photo
and videocameras and other similar devices.
*Universal Stack USB 2.0 (without installation of additional drivers for each chipsets) with uninstall.
1.Remove ALL drivers USB flash drives.
2.Remove ALL drivers USB 2.0 controllers.
3.Remove ALL unknown devices.
4.Install NUSB 3.3 and reboot.
5.After detection new USB 2.0 controllers (if it will occur) too it is necessary to be reboot.
Remember! You install it at own risk!



#18 ktp

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 08:08 AM

@TheHive
Thank you, but as mentioned already, I tried NUSB3.3 (need to apply when in IDE mode, not in USB external hard disk, otherwise hang). It works, but when I put back to external USB HDD, Win98SE hang immediately at boot time, with logo screen.

#19 mr_

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 09:07 PM

Question : why Win9x does not have problem (BSOD 0x7B) booting from USB HDD ?

DOS uses the BIOS function INT 13h to access the boot device. Win9x is DOS based and Windows will switch from real mode to protected mode and use later it's own driver. But there is a feature, a fallback feature. If there is no protected mode driver for accessing the disk it will switch back to real mode and use the BIOS function anyway and swtich back to protected mode (just like DOS extenders to, I think).

NT like operating systems (XP and Vista...) are NOT based upon DOS. Due to other kernel design the "fallback feature" has been dropped. This is because these days it's less likely that there is no protected mode driver available (them thought so, I say XP and sata or usb). Also the BIOS function would be to slow these days for other access then booting.

And because microsoft has no own support for USB booting it's a big mess of including the USB drivers at the right point yourself. Vista has still no native USB booting support. This is the end of the story.




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