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The Newbies are "Coming" warts & all


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Poll: Should we have a "Newbie's" section? (58 member(s) have cast votes)

Pick your vote and give your reasons to vote:

  1. Yes (51 votes [87.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 87.93%

  2. No (7 votes [12.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.07%

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#26 niche99

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:51 AM

I voted No.

I agree with Peter. Having a 'newbie' section may be somewhat discriminatory. I like the forums here, people are friendly, so I don't see the need for a 'newbie' section. Tutorials are always good, so a Tutorial section could be useful.

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#27 gtragitt

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:37 AM

This forum (especially jaclaz) was tremendously helpful to me. I finally figured out how to solve my problem, but I learned much from my mstakes . I found help from jaclaz that helped me eliminate possibilities for my not suceeding.

I used a tutorial on another site to be able to install Windows XP onto a USB hard drive. Nobody on that site's forum would respond to my posts. That site was the most appropriate for solving my problem. Although this site was less appropriate, I received the most help here.

#28 sbrutsch

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:05 AM

Now I feel the necessarity to post here too.
BTW: My vote has been one of the first ones and has been 'no'

Let me explain:
Any issue / question coming up can be

  • a 'stupid' question of a newbie
  • a 'stupid' question of an experienced member
    (See below, I'm sure that questions are never stupid)
  • a sophisticated question of a newbie
  • a sophisticated question of an experienced user
Why should a newbie put his question in a forum where propably the users do not have much more experience than himself?

The only recommandation I have:

Let's assume (what happens rather often) that the newbie puts a question neglecting every (not forum's but common) rules by writing something like: 'I got an error. Why?'
Then I personally sometimes are short before becoming angry when explaining for the 123... time that in order to help we need something like a log file and / or the detailled error message etc.
Same when I explain for the 456... time that one should never start with a 'complete' project, or how to build a minimum nativeEx based project
(I think it is similar with VistaPE, but that's outside my knowledge)

Would be nice if also a (bit more experienced) newbie tells this facts to the brand new newbie.

Peter


A lot of smilies in the first posting. :)

PSC, your right. But what would be if newbies only allowed to post in this section?!

And what about big rules in the header of this section?!

So we can really point on this rules and say to the newbies - "You must read the rules before you post. And then you get an answer."

#29 Aitrus

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 12:31 PM

I am bent on both ends on this topic to an extent. I must say that we were once all newbies or noobs or nubs :). I still am at least in this field of things and on this forum. I did post a few ignorant things when I was seeking help earlier (due to someone having posting a crappy walk-through on VistaPE at an external website).

I did manage to read the rules before posting and I did manage to get awesome help that eventually solved the issues I was having.

Do we need a Newbie section?
My vote is yes and no, yes to a section where we have an a-z walk-through on winbuilder and projects, but no to a "newbie" section lol :(.

While this next bit may be a bit off topic... How I discovered VistaPE was upon reading a PC-Magazine in the USA that I am subscribed to. In the specific article they were talking about bootable USB drives and how they were being developed and growing around the US. Most of them are only Linux based, in fact all that ones I have seen are.
2 Of the ones mentioned are http://www.portableapps.com (which is not boot-able but more so a privacy usb drive with portable apps).
& http://www.pendrivelinux.com

Both of which I tried and was successful with in a matter of minutes. The walk-throughs were super simple and the packages are pretty much set. My point in that being, there are plenty of USB boot-ables out there, but no Windows competition as far as I know, so VistaPC is on to something.

My opinion is to either A: create a section of the forums for yes noob questions, B: just create an a-z noob walk-through, or C: make an iso of each project that is tested and working possibly and have it available for download with the file needed to make it boot-able (kinda like the pendrivelinux which is an iso download and another file which makes the usb drive bootable etc...

BTW sorry if I am not supposed to post external links to stuff like that. In any case, I don't mind volunteering my time with noobs on the forums if the section is created. I'll do what I can when I can.

Thats my input anyhow.

#30 Nuno Brito

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:32 PM

Glad to see so many people voting and sharing their thoughts! :)

#31 pscEx

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:37 PM

Glad to see so many people voting and sharing their thoughts! :)

But unhappy that so many people vote for a 'two class community' with 'Capitalists' and 'Proletarians'.

Peter

#32 philon

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:13 PM

I voted with NO because I'm an antinoob (this is a joke, @admin: please don't ban me).

I have a lot of experience as newbie because I am always a newbie in one area or the other (hopefully not in the same area all the time). Since a few hours I am a EeePC newbie e.g. and are fighting with the strange UnionFileSystem.

How I proceed as newbie:

-Read the Wiki
-Read the FAQ
-Google
-Look how the relevant forums are organised what is discussed there
-Follow a few Howto's and make first trials
-Finally ask my question in the appropriate subforum if necessary

So my proposal is to complete and consolidate the existing Wiki, start with a FAQ and collect the Howto's and miniHowto's hidden within some threads in one location.

philon

#33 amalux

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:34 PM

I voted with NO because I'm an antinoob (this is a joke, @admin: please don't ban me).

I have a lot of experience as newbie because I am always a newbie in one area or the other (hopefully not in the same area all the time). Since a few hours I am a EeePC newbie e.g. and are fighting with the strange UnionFileSystem.

How I proceed as newbie:

-Read the Wiki
-Read the FAQ
-Google
-Look how the relevant forums are organised what is discussed there
-Follow a few Howto's and make first trials
-Finally ask my question in the appropriate subforum if necessary

So my proposal is to complete and consolidate the existing Wiki, start with a FAQ and collect the Howto's and miniHowto's hidden within some threads in one location.

philon

philon; Peter,

Good points, after a lot of consideration, I'm going to finally have to vote NO on this 'split' (sorry ispy). I really think tutorials/guides etc. are the best way to get started and then just dive in with the rest of us and join the community. It's up to each (advanced) member if they want to respond to a 'newbies' question but at least it's out there for all to see and respond to. My experience here has been that there are plenty of good souls that don't mind giving the newbie a helping hand as long as the questions are sincere and thought through i.e. NOT, "hey, I want a boot dik, what do i do?" :)

I don't think the sincerely seeking newbie could hope to find a more friendly and helpful group than they will find here at boot-land. :(

#34 0vermind

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 07:59 PM

I think all forums should, this one in particulate I could have used a year ago when I was a n00bie. :)
See, this forum is unique and as such people want to make Bootable USB Sticks, CDs, and Bart CDs. This forum is really in need of a nice section dedicated to tutorials and guides.

However, I do NOT think that it should be called "N00bie Land" or something, the word n00bie is a little harsh, that's why I also think that's why 6 people said no on the Poll because they take the word "n00bie" as offensive or defensive to others.
As exactly my point here:

I voted with NO because I'm an antinoob (this is a joke, @admin: please don't ban me).

I have a lot of experience as newbie because I am always a newbie in one area or the other (hopefully not in the same area all the time).
.......

I stand to my point. However, if you were to called it "Getting started", "Guides and Tutorials" or "Start here first" rather then "n00bie land" everyone would agree. As were are not giving dumie instructions on how to use a forum are we? (I hope not) :(

I agree, and I feel bad for the guys who post on forums and their first post isn't so great so they are slapped with the label "stupid n00b" or given this picture:
Posted Image


-Mike

#35 ispy

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:09 PM

Hi all :) ,

Just some further thoughts & questions?

When do you forsee the closing date for voting & how many votes constitute a majority?

The way I see it, (& if others see it from another perspective please post) we/you already have a tutorials section that could be transparently adapted into the "Newbies/starters" section. I would just like to dispell some (reading between the lines) misconceptions that are being raised, from my own point of view.

I am not proposing that yet another section, adding to the further disfragmentation of the Boot-Land, I am proposing starting small, utilizing the resourses that already exist with Boot-Land & where possible carrying out minor restructuring to compliment & include the wealth of knowledge that already exists here. In a sense I am not advocating major changes (going back to the drawing board). I think some people are getting a bit "hung up" as they for-see significant rewriting & the dreaded new things taking over.

I can say this however, isn't a shame that the people that it is really going affect have no say, the silent newbies of today, who incidently with help will be the experts of tomorow.

Lets for one minute look at the two options in relation to the Newbies/starters section:
1) A newbies forum/posting section. (This seems to be the most controversial)
2) A repository of reference guides/tutorials FAQ's etc (The list is endless)

Both of these disciplines can be located in the same area but equally you could "collectively" decide to opt for "one or both" of the above options 1 or 2. In contrast "IF" however the voting goes in favour of the "No's" keep things as they are.

In respect of options 1+2, 1 only, or 2 only, my eyes are looking to the future & the growth of Boot-Land not just with Winbuilder in mind but the developing diversification of topics & forums that are evolving on a daily basis. New Os's are arriving Vista, ReactOS (is in the latter stages of development), new programs internal & external to bootland. Script writing is advancing yadda yadda yadda you get the point?

Those of you who are seasoned hands think back to the beginnings. I'm sure BootLand was a completely different animal then, we sometimes forget our roots & how things first started. Would you lay your hand upon your heart & say that the things of the past would be applicable within Boot-Land today? Well another question could be will things of the presant be applicable to thing in the future also?

Going back to Winbuilder I notice that no help files come with it, instead a web-link page directs to Boot-Land, why, is this to reduce bloatware or to give the user access to a wealth of information within Bootland.

If for arguments sake a new user (who ran into difficulties) was able to click on the link (which incidently already exists), he would be as a default, forwarded to the tutorials section within Boot-Lands "Newbie" infrastructure. Otherwise the alternative could be a .CHM file, international lang packs, as a bundled help starter guide? If modular in format could be added or disregarded as the user requires as part of the downloads process?

My message is, compliment rather rebuild, rationalise rather disfragment, adapt & be flexible rather than be "Well this way we have always done it" or putting it another way collect/gather all the help info into one repository. Make it easy for everyone, guys life is hard enough & I for one am not proposing radical adjustments.

I would like to encourage more to posts, I am not burrying my head in the sand by saying there will not be problems, but in my view the problems are relatively minor and they are not insurmountable in relationship to the possible direct & indirect spin off benefits?

In respect of discrimatory "Us & them" claims can I use an this analogy/story:
In Britain, we had this brainchild called Comprehensive education. It was built on equality & treating all the school pupils with academic status, the teachers were forced to teach all levels of academic ability all mixed together within the same classroom, needless to say the standards dropped the clever children became disallusioned, frustrated & had difficulty in reaching their full potential. The not so bright lagged behind, became disruptive & frustrated also, difficulties arose.

What I am trying to say is that discipline & sensitive control is required but mixed abilities jumbled in together is not a good recipe. The moral of the story is bring back Grammer schools with inherant streaming, not segregation or separation, it is not a discrimatory remark or elitist to stream different levels or ability, to me it's good practice.

The word "Newbie" is just a quick slang name, not really a good desription of many PC users (Upon reflection).
It's not really important what you call it, what is important is that the provision is there in a comprehensive format.

Depending on how well the starters section is planned & configured, I wouldn't forsee the Newb's being newb's for long, its just a good foundation to build from!

In heinsight ("a wonderful thing"), I think it would have been a good idea to:

1) Have a secret ballot for the voting process where each member was sent a PM asking them to vote in conjunction with this posting to pro-actively stimulate each member to vote maybe a higher percentage of the membership would have voted?

I've said enough the collective you will ultimately decide, it raises good debate & I for one am encouraged by the level of response to this posting, it gets the juices running LOL!

Thanks to all the Pro's and to all the Con's for taking the time & trouble to post & vote, I'm sure the senior management will be proud of you!

Regards,

ispy :(

#36 Nuno Brito

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:44 PM

These are good arguments, very interesting to read and understand all the different perspectives.

So I'd say most people agree that a section for starters is important and it's goal should be a place where elucidative tutorials are placed in order to guide fresh members into this "world" and also where they find enough space to write up new questions that they aren't sure where to place them.

I think the voting is clear at this moment and this discussion is also raising some very good points to build up the soul and reasons to create a new section such as this.

Guess that clear documentation along with good examples is something we definitively need to get organized and are very welcome indeed.

:)

#37 retep

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:40 PM

nub, noob, noobie, nube, newbie, nudbe, neophyte...

These are relative terms and not necessarily linked to computing experience.
Admin types are driven by the need for quick answers. If it gets
the job done they "may" come back and help. If it doesn't they
will tend to move on.

Quoting amalux (who later recanted his vote - considering the
papal picture that is a better choice of word than "changed" :)

"...
but wouldn't it be nice, instead of having to explain for the 789th time these simple rules/steps, you/we could simply point them to a page that explained all these 'newbie rules' with simple (maybe interactive) walk-throughs that got the neophyte to a certain 'minimum working level' with a basic project?"

I agree with this point of view. I voted yes and I have not lost the faith.

#38 amalux

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 02:11 AM

nub, noob, noobie, nube, newbie, nudbe, neophyte...

These are relative terms and not necessarily linked to computing experience.
Admin types are driven by the need for quick answers. If it gets
the job done they "may" come back and help. If it doesn't they
will tend to move on.

Quoting amalux (who later recanted his vote - considering the
papal picture that is a better choice of word than "changed" :)

"...
but wouldn't it be nice, instead of having to explain for the 789th time these simple rules/steps, you/we could simply point them to a page that explained all these 'newbie rules' with simple (maybe interactive) walk-throughs that got the neophyte to a certain 'minimum working level' with a basic project?"

I agree with this point of view. I voted yes and I have not lost the faith.

Hi retep, Welcome aboard! :cheers:

Technically, I only voted once and didn't change it afterwords :( but I know what you mean; I gave this a lot of thought and did ultimately decide to vote NO. This wasn't because I don't like 'new-comers' (how's that, better than newbie?) or want them to go away but because I truly believe that a separate section could isolate or even hamper the students (probably not so good a term) development into a full fledged member of this great community! I could be wrong though and based on recent attempts (failures) at writing a tutorial; maybe it's best to keep new arrivals at bay in their own, safe, corner until these issues can be worked out :cheers:. Anyway, doesn't look to me like my vote is going to matter much, a 'newbie' section is in the stars! Enjoy!

#39 Alexei

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 03:37 AM

I voted "Yes".
The reason is simply better search and navigation through the forums.
And, of course, the criterium should be not who's asking, but the "level" of questions :)
For ex. I still didn't get "Build Model" and some other stuff :(
:cheers:
Alexei

#40 CrazyComputerMan

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 04:16 AM

I would say it is good idea to make a newbie section... As long as you dont call us "Noobs!" :whistling: ;)




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