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WinBuilder's future


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#1 pscEx

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 06:01 PM

BTW: Critics does not mean that somebody wants to blow up something, good critics give suggestions what could be done.

In his post booty#1 gave some rather critical words about WinBuilder.exe:

In my post I gave some rather critical words about the VistaPE project.

The really underlying issue in both cases seems to be the same.
Because I want to speak here issue-related, not personal:
Please allow me that in the following I use 'Item' for Winbuilder.exe AND VistaPE project AND ???
Please allow me that in the following I use 'Author' for Nuno Brito AND NightMan AND ???

When Item becomes more and more featured, maintenance becomes more and more time consuming.
Because Author does not have a day with more than 24 hours, Author makes a priority list.
Here sometimes it happens that the opinion of Author differs from the opinion of the other forum's members.

As a result, there is some discontion at some forum members, because they often have to adjust and debug new project versions, and also have often to adjust their own OS's rules.

Because Author does not have a day with more than 24 hours, Author should select some helpers to do the things which are not on the first place of his / her priority list, but are demanded / suggested by a lot of forum's members.
As he / she can select them following his / her own judgements / emotions, it can be proofed that the helpers are working inside the intention of Author.

I'm waiting for respone!


Peter

#2 phox

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 07:31 PM

BTW: Critics does not mean that somebody wants to blow up something, good critics give suggestions what could be done.

In his post booty#1 gave some rather critical words about WinBuilder.exe:

In my post I gave some rather critical words about the VistaPE project.

The really underlying issue in both cases seems to be the same.
Because I want to speak here issue-related, not personal:
Please allow me that in the following I use 'Item' for Winbuilder.exe AND VistaPE project AND ???
Please allow me that in the following I use 'Author' for Nuno Brito AND NightMan AND ???

When Item becomes more and more featured, maintenance becomes more and more time consuming.
Because Author does not have a day with more than 24 hours, Author makes a priority list.
Here sometimes it happens that the opinion of Author differs from the opinion of the other forum's members.

As a result, there is some discontion at some forum members, because they often have to adjust and debug new project versions, and also have often to adjust their own OS's rules.

Because Author does not have a day with more than 24 hours, Author should select some helpers to do the things which are not on the first place of his / her priority list, but are demanded / suggested by a lot of forum's members.
As he / she can select them following his / her own judgements / emotions, it can be proofed that the helpers are working inside the intention of Author.

I'm waiting for respone!


Peter



Thank you Peter!

This is how justified concerns should be addressed.

Kind regards, phox.

#3 Draugen

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:45 PM

Hear hear! A big step in the right direction!

+1 from me :thumbsup:

//martin

#4 phox

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:14 AM

Hear hear! A big step in the right direction!

+1 from me :thumbsup:

//martin


Please, compare carefully your posts for this subject with Peter's here
and maybe you will learn something and understand my position!

The style is also important beside the subject!

Kind regards, phox.

#5 Draugen

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 12:41 PM

Please, compare carefully your posts for this subject with Peter's here
and maybe you will learn something and understand my position!

The style is also important beside the subject!

Kind regards, phox.


Huh? I'll admit I am known to use a slightly less...diplomatic...tone (sometimes harsh criticism in necessary. Although it is no fun to be on the receiving end), but psc is saying pretty much the same as I have said. I want to take things further (code-release-wise), is all :thumbsup:

#6 phox

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 02:04 PM

Huh? I'll admit I am known to use a slightly less...diplomatic...tone (sometimes harsh criticism in necessary. Although it is no fun to be on the receiving end), but psc is saying pretty much the same as I have said. I want to take things further (code-release-wise), is all :thumbsup:



Being "known" doesn't prevent you to be little more considerate,
but admitting it is first step in good direction.

Kind regards.

#7 was_jaclaz

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 02:29 PM

Well, one year has passed away:
http://www.boot-land...?...c=636&st=12

:thumbsup:

jaclaz

#8 MedEvil

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

Havn't come across that topic yet but whole heardedly agree on the point that that we do need some structure and organization.
I've also seen that developers around here are very, very, very afraid of any kind of possible control.
But at the same time, they follow without protest, any path thrusted upon them by some technical facts implemented by some other developer! :thumbsup:

Why do people protest, against a 'control' that gives them the chance to be part of the decision making, but not if they are forced to follow!? :D
Shouldn't it be the other way around? Is dictatorship our ideal? I always thought it was democracy!

btw. jaclaz, i don't think it will be harder to find people who are willing to donate time as project leaders than it is to find people to donate time as moderators or script developers.

IMO, non script developers are the better choice for a project maintainers.
A project maintainer should have a very clear idea about the goal of the project and should test it thoroughly, before releasing it to the 'public'. But it's usually beneficial for the person leading the way, to not know too much about the problems, that will be in his way!

A project leader (responsible for development of subfeatures) on the other hand, will need to be a script developer, as the implementation and coordination at this level is mostly technical.


In general any kind of good project lives from the cooperation of two completely differnt grounps of people.
The visionaries with the great ideas and no idea how to realize them and the developers, who laugh their asses of about the crazy ideas of the visionaries, but find ways to make it work nevertheless and are then baffled by the success of that 'nonsense' product! :D

:D

#9 was_jaclaz

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:44 PM

Okay, then let's start "counting" people.

Please everyone in the .script developer Group
(at the moment of this writing there are 33 people in it):
Alexei
Areyu_Moritii
beakmyn
booty#1
curare
CWorks
Draugen
edborg
Galapo
Garfield
HighwayStar
Holger
Lodovik
Max_Real Qnx
MedEvil
nate
NightMan
nikzzzz
Nuno Brito
Ove
paraglider
phox
pedrole15
proton
psc
ReD
smiley
TheHive
thunn
valentin
winimizer
yahoouk
Zharif

Please PM me this simple form filled:

a. I am interested into joining a "structured" approach. (Yes/No)
b. And I am willing to be "directed", or however "guided" by a Project or Team Leader. (Yes/No)

If Yes to BOTH the above:
c. I would like to work on following "base" project (s):
1. LiveXP (Yes/No)
2. Native_ex (Yes/No)
3. VistaPE (Yes/No)
4. Other (please specify)

d. I have particular abilities in the following:
1. .script writing (Yes/No)
2. Delphi (Yes/No)
3. C/C++/C# (Yes/No)
4. Other (please specify)

e. I have particular interest in:
1. Developing common libraries (Yes/No)
2. Integrating third party apps (Yes/No)
3. Drivers and hardware support (Yes/No)
4. .script developing (Yes/No)
5. Other (please specify)

f. I am willing to contribute to the project and I expect I can "donate" as much as:
1. 5 hours time or less per week (Yes/No)
2. between 5 and 10 hours time per week (Yes/No)
3. between 10 and 15 hours time per week (Yes/No)
4. bewtwen 15 and 20 hours time per week (Yes/No)
5. Other (please specify)

g. List below one to five current projects or sub-projects that you think you would like to contribute to (in more detail than point #b. above):

h. List below one to five current projects or sub-projects that you find to be needing updating/fixing/betterings (please specify what do you think specifically that needs a correction):

i. List below any other opinion/idea/suggestion you have on the Winbuilder Development Model (useful to create a Roadmap and/or giving priorities to its contents or whatever you deel like expressing)


I will collect the PM's and publish the results of this little Poll in "anonymous" form.

Any member not (yet) in the .script developer group is welcome as well to join.

Deadline is February 15th, 2008.


jaclaz

#10 pscEx

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:58 PM

Okay, then let's start "counting" people.

Please everyone in the .script developer Group
(at the moment of this writing there are 34 people in it):
...
Please PM me this simple form filled:
...

I will collect the PM's and publish the results of this little Poll in "anonymous" form.

Thanks, Jaclaz for your idea!

You already got my answer.

Peter

#11 phox

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 07:48 PM

Okay, then let's start "counting" people.

Please everyone in the .script developer Group
(at the moment of this writing there are 33 people in it):


I am on this list only by Nuno's unwarranted imagination!

#12 pscEx

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 07:57 PM

I am on this list only by Nuno's unwarranted imagination!


Then use this honour to become your fourth 'S'! :thumbsup:

Peter

#13 MedEvil

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:54 PM

phox no use protesting, the script developer group is like the mafia. Once in, never out! :D

:thumbsup:

#14 thunn

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:56 AM

That's right, Blood in, Blood out.
:thumbsup:

From what I gather this seems a good idea, organization that is.. I can always use more.
I spend my personal time developing and testing projects because sharing solutions I've discovered is rewarding in many ways. I currently have a small group of testers, but nothing very organized. Maybe this effort will facilitate some assistance? :D I would also like to be able to see at a glance what others are doing and how I might join in.

I guess I'm on board.
Can we have more details about how the efforts might proceed?

thanks, -t

#15 phox

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:21 AM

phox no use protesting, the script developer group is like the mafia. Once in, never out! :D

:thumbsup:


I could participate with testing, from the position of half professional!

#16 MedEvil

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:47 PM

A good start would be to define the status quo.
How about if all project maintainers would post where their projects stand and where they would like to take them.

NativeEx_barebone is the only project that don't want to head anyway, as it is already what it wants to be.

:thumbsup:

#17 thunn

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:30 AM

my little roadmap..
A live 'full' XP inram may replace or join NativePE when I get it under 100MB. and it supports about 80% of all 'normal' apps (no dotnet).
Bartpecore will continue to support pebuilder based builds, but may soon have an option to disable pebuilder partially or entirely, i.e. only files are processed, or only reg entries are processed, or another scripts takes it's place.

A 'full' but reduced XP inram is my main focus for the near future.
Something easy to use.
:thumbsup:
..
G'Night all!

#18 was_jaclaz

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 06:30 PM

Okay, then let's start "counting" people.

Please everyone in the .script developer Group
....

Please PM me this simple form filled:

.....

I will collect the PM's and publish the results of this little Poll in "anonymous" form.

Any member not (yet) in the .script developer group is welcome as well to join.

Deadline is February 15th, 2008.


....tick ....tick ....tick ....tick

Though intended as an "informal" survey, deadline is NOT expressed in Latin Time, it will expire today midnight, or 12:00 PM GMT.

I will publish some results (hopefully) next monday , and this IS expressed in Latin Time :thumbsup: (boy, do I like power in my hands :D)

jaclaz

#19 booty#1

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 01:24 PM

I will publish some results (hopefully) next monday , and this IS expressed in Latin Time :)


Hi jaclaz,

are there any news on the survey, or did you got too less submissions?

booty#1

#20 pscEx

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Posted 28 February 2008 - 03:54 PM

Hi jaclaz,

are there any news on the survey, or did you got too less submissions?

booty#1

@booty!

Maybe you allow me a small explanation:

'Next Monday' in Latin time means:
The monday after a certain event

So you hve to ask for the event
  • Eastern
  • Daylight safe switch day
  • Christmas
  • ...
To be sure, it is recommended to add a more specific question:
  • Which year
Peter :)

#21 booty#1

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:04 PM

Hi Peter,

looks like you are in good mood - or was that a bit of sarcasm?
My feelings about WinBuilder development are still not the best - and therefore my mood is constantly turning towards a really bad mood :) (regarding WinBuilder). From my point of view nothing has changed since our discussion in January it it doesn't looks like there will be any significant change in the near future. :cheers::cheers::cheers::(

Therefore I decided to stop any WinBuilder related activities from now on - I know definitely better ways for wasting my spare time than supporting a project lead by someone who's greatest fear is that someone might steal his code.


To other who feel like me I can only give the advice not to invest too may time into WinBuilder development - in most cases it is wasted time as "the king" just ignores you.

Over and out - booty#1 saying good bye

#22 was_jaclaz

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:41 PM

I am completely failing to see the reason, I mean a real reason, behind the resentfulness that appears behind booty#1's post. :(

The "leading" concept behind this place is Freedom :), intended BOTH as free as in Freedom and as free in Free Beer.

Consequently, everyone is FREE do do whatever he wishes with his code, as well as everyone is FREE to decide whether he wants to cooperate, contribute or not, to leave or join the Community, whatever (this is Freedom).

Everyone has been granted the right to give his opinion, noone will ever be granted that his opinion will be accepted.

"Moral" judgements are not needed, nor appreciated, and besides, I find personally bad taste, given the amount of resources that a lot of people has invested in this project to criticise it or it's leader with such a vehement attitude.

Good bye booty#1, it has been a pleasure to share a small length of path, it will be again a pleasure when and if our paths will meet again.

jaclaz

#23 Nuno Brito

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 04:27 PM

I subscribe to Jaclaz's thougths on this matter.

WinBuilder has a bright future that is built every day by a community where every member can make a huge impact on the way how things are done and trust me when I say that this is very rare to find these days.

My personal commitment is to ensure that people find a space where their own projects can be proposed and discussed in a tone of mutual respect.

Sorry if you felt ignored but it is not fair to give such rash critics without looking on a wider perspective and evaluate the need to improve other important aspects of the wb development besides WinBuilder.exe. Creating simplified documentation for "newbies" and "gurus" is needed, improving of available projects is vital and focus on previously discussed priorities rather than moving straight ahead to new features without considering the overall stability of the script engine.


wb was built with love and is not just a piece of code to give away as open source or steal by someone out there. I will only share the code that I've written with such effort when I am no longer able to continue it's development or find someone else willing to dedicate their life with even more passion to the mission of improving the wb binary and keeping unharmed the harmony of our development and research on this site.

If you have enjoyed working in a community where commercial interests are placed aside and good ethics to share knowledge are valued - please respect this wish.


It's sad to hear your decision but you are really welcome to return if you ever wish to join our talks here anytime in the future.

:)

#24 TheHive

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 06:45 PM

From my point of view nothing has changed since our discussion in January it it doesn't looks like there will be any significant change in the near future.

I have to intercede here. Nuno, has not been on this forum for a while because of studies. That is one reason you have not seen development on Winbuilder. And that is why some posts that have been made by users have not been answered by him.

Over and out - booty#1 saying good bye

It, is sad to see you go. Hope you decide to come back.

#25 pscEx

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 07:22 PM

I have to intercede here. Nuno, has not been on this forum for a while because of studies. That is one reason you have not seen development on Winbuilder. And that is why some posts that have been made by users have not been answered by him.

You are right in this issue. But there are some other facts which in my opinion really frustrated booty.

There is e.g. a topic 'What encoding function does WinBuilder use?' by booty#1.

In one of the posts there is the information

Encoding a 2.6 MB file into a script took originally about 8.5 seconds.
The enhanced algorithm now makes this in 0.5 seconds!
(on a Core2Duo E6600 system with lots of ram).
That is a speed-up of 1700%


In my opinion the sence of the topic is either
  • Ignored until now
  • If it is used in a WB change, it is not clearly published as result of booty#1's snippets
Peter

BTW: Back to my start post: Nobody has a 48 hours day! About 28 hours of this 48 should be delegated.




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