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VistaPE and DriveImage XML?


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#1 Lex Luthor

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:48 PM

I have 1 Vista PC and 2 XP PCs. I created a Bart PE CD with the DriveImage XML plugin and that works great on the XP PCs, but it doesn't recognize my C drive on the Vista PC.

Does Vista PE have a DriveImage XML plugin?

How can I get DriveImage XML working from a bootable CD on my Vista PC m?

Thanks!

#2 JonF

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:14 AM

Nobody's gotten DriveImage XML to work reliably under VistaPE yet. Your Vista system probably has a SATA drive for which there's no driver on the XP source CD; that's why your BartPE CD doesn't see your Vista system's C drive. Try adding the driverpacks plugin to your BartPE CD: Official BTS Driverpack Support.

#3 Lex Luthor

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:24 AM

Actually, I had some success.

From the documentation, I couldn't there was already a script for DriveImage XML under VistaPE, so I did a build and saw I could add it. I was able to create a VistaPE CD successfully.

It detects me SATA drive and seems to work.


The only issue is that when it tries to make a shadow copy of the drive, I get an error about vssvc.exe not being there. It does continue with a warning that it couldn't make a shadow of the drive. Since the drive isn't in use for anything else since I've booted from the CD, I'd imagine it'd work fine without making a shadow of the drive.

Still, how do I get vssvc.exe and (and I think associated file xolehelp.dll) onto a new VistaPE CD?

Or would it be easier to add that driver back to a new BartPE CD? I think I'm close enough with my VistaPE though.

#4 JonF

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:34 AM

Or would it be easier to add that driver back to a new BartPE CD?

Driver pack. Yes. Far easier.

I think I'm close enough with my VistaPE though.

I thought so too, back in April. I'm still not there, nor (AFAICT) is anyone else. I'm not as experienced as some but I've been doing this sort of thing for several years. DriveImage XML under VistaPE is a difficult problem.

#5 Lex Luthor

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 03:12 AM

Well, maybe I'll try the driver pack tomorrow.

I do think I have DriveImage XML working with VistaPE. It just doesn't have that vssvc.exe file so it can create a shadow of the drive, but since the drive isn't in use (except for the driveimage backup), I don't see how that would matter. I guess I'll have to let it make a full copy sometime and see if it's readable at the end, but I don't see why not.

If I wanted to try to get vssvc.exe onto the VistaPE so that DriveImage XML would have it to use, what would be the procedure for hat?

#6 Lex Luthor

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 12:50 PM

No go. With the driverpack and BartPE, I got an error message saying I need admin rights when I tried to backup/restore using DriveImage XML on my Vista PC. BartPE without the driverpack didn't give me that message, but I couldn't see my C: drive at all.

When I tried on BartPE w/driverpack on my XP PC (no SATA drive), it worked fine.

I guess the thing I'd like help with is how do I get that VSSVC.exe file into my VistaPE installation so that it has access to the volume shadow service. I think if I had the file on VistaPE, I'd be in great shape.

#7 Nuno Brito

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:54 PM

DriveImageXML was added to the LiveXP project some months ago.

You find the script here --> http://livexp.boot-l...ImageXML.script

Since the script is using API format it should work very well under VistaPE or you can simply use the LiveXP project which already comes with SATA drivers.

Good luck! :cheers:

#8 Lex Luthor

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 03:23 PM

DriveImageXML was added to the LiveXP project some months ago.

You find the script here --> http://livexp.boot-l...ImageXML.script

Since the script is using API format it should work very well under VistaPE or you can simply use the LiveXP project which already comes with SATA drivers.

Good luck! :cheers:


Well, looking at the LiveXP DriveImageXML script, I don't see how that's going to work under VistaPE. I see references to files that appear to be XP files and not Vista files (like VSSXP.dll). I can't just replace the VistaPE DriveImageXML script with this one and find that all will work, can I?

If not, I'm up for trying a LiveXP CD with this DriveImageXML script though. But, maybe I'm missing something. Where do I a Live XP builder from? I've been searching, but I must be missing something.

#9 Nuno Brito

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 03:59 PM

Open the download center inside wb and select the livexp.boot-land.net server to get all updated project files.


There's also a single pack for download on the project gallery here --> http://winbuilder.ne...load.php?list.5

-------------------

Why do you need VSSXP.dll to work under Vista? :cheers:

If you're booting from a CD/DVD/USB drive then the volume can safely be locked since the OS is running from a removable media.

Good enough to create or restore disk images.

------------------

Which references are specific to XP?

Look inside the code, it will look for 4 files inside the windows source to include on the boot disk

require_file,APPHELP.DLL
require_file,LZ32.DLL
require_file,WOW32.DLL
require_file,NTVDM.EXE

And write the needed registry keys.

Will also add a few shortcuts:

If,%pCheckBox1%,Equal,True,Add_Shortcut,Desktop
Add_Shortcut,StartMenu



[variables]%ProgramTitle%=DriveImage XML%ProgramEXE%=dixml.exe%ProgramFolder%=DriveImageXML[process]If,%pCheckBox1%,Equal,True,Add_Shortcut,DesktopAdd_Shortcut,StartMenuunpackecho,"Expanding DLLs..."require_file,APPHELP.DLLrequire_file,LZ32.DLLrequire_file,WOW32.DLLrequire_file,NTVDM.EXEhive_load,HKUreg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts","MS Sans Serif 8,10,12,14,18,24 (VGA res)","SSERIFE.FON"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts","MS Serif 8,10,12,14,18,24 (VGA res)","SERIFE.FON"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Fonts","Small Fonts (VGA res)","SMALLE.FON"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{43A8F463-4222-11d2-B641-006097DF5BD4}","","Shell Name Space ListView"reg_add,0x2,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{43A8F463-4222-11d2-B641-006097DF5BD4}\InProcServer32","","%SystemRoot%\System32\shdocvw.dll"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{43A8F463-4222-11d2-B641-006097DF5BD4}\InProcServer32","ThreadingModel","Apartment"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{603D3800-BD81-11d0-A3A5-00C04FD706EC}","","Background Task Scheduler"reg_add,0x2,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{603D3800-BD81-11d0-A3A5-00C04FD706EC}\InProcServer32","","%SystemRoot%\System32\browseui.dll"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{603D3800-BD81-11d0-A3A5-00C04FD706EC}\InProcServer32","ThreadingModel","Apartment"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}","","Shell Automation Service"reg_add,0x2,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\InProcServer32","","%SystemRoot%\system32\SHELL32.dll"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\InProcServer32","ThreadingModel","Apartment"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\ProgID","","Shell.Application.1"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\TypeLib","","{50a7e9b0-70ef-11d1-b75a-00a0c90564fe}"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\Version","","1.1"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\CLSID\{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}\VersionIndependentProgID","","Shell.Application"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\Shell.Application","","Shell Automation Service"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\Shell.Application\CLSID","","{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\Shell.Application\CurVer","","Shell.Application.1"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\Shell.Application.1","","Shell Automation Service"reg_add,0x1,"%reg%\Classes\Shell.Application.1\CLSID","","{13709620-C279-11CE-A49E-444553540000}"hive_unload,HKU


#10 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 02:18 AM

I think if I had the file on VistaPE, I'd be in great shape.

Sorry, you are wrong. You would still be far from having it work. But go ahead and try; in WinBuilder, select the DriveImage XML script. Click the edit button (second from the top next to the script's icon). Select the "Attach" tab. Click "Add". Select vssvista.dll from your DriveImage XML installation. Click Start. Click the red X at the top right of the editor window to return to the main screen. Build your project. Test it. Curse when it fails again.

Then you can add lines to the script to copy vsssvc.exe and xolehelp.dll:

FileCopy,"%InstallSRC%\Windows\System32\vsssvc.exe","%TargetDir%\Windows\System32"

FileCopy,"%InstallSRC%\Windows\System32\xolehelp.dll","%TargetDir%\Windows\System32"
(I don't know how to do that in the new API).

Then in VistaPE you can run services.msc and start both the Volume Shadow Copy services. And curse again when DriveImage XML fails again.

If you figure out anyting beyond that, please let me know.

#11 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 02:26 AM

Why do you need VSSXP.dll to work under Vista? :cheers:

He does not need vssxp.dll. He does need vssvista.dll (copied from a DriveImage XML installation), vsssvc.exe, and xolehelp.dll (both copied from his Vista source), and something else.

Your script does not copy three files that are required to run under Vista, so it is not going to work in VistaPE. But it does not really matter, because nobody knows what the "something else" that is needed is; even if you copy those three files and start the appropriate services it does not work.

{ABE} Actually I have not tried adding the three other required files to your script and then starting the services. There is a possibility that mght work.

#12 Lex Luthor

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 02:29 AM

JohnF,

Thanks for helping me explain that.

I guess the question is do I even need that service? It creates a volume shadow, but since I'm not working on that volume, since I'm working for a Vista PE CD, the volume should be complete free to just be copied without it being locked or shadowed. It warns me that the backup might be bad, but then goes on to do the backup.

#13 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 02:43 AM

I guess the question is do I even need that service? It creates a volume shadow, but since I'm not working on that volume, since I'm working for a Vista PE CD, the volume should be complete free to just be copied without it being locked or shadowed. It warns me that the backup might be bad, but then goes on to do the backup.

Since it always fails to lock the drive, it appears that you do need VSS. I don't know what else is grabbing the drive.

I don't trust the backup that it makes under those cicumstances. I don't see why you want to make a backup from VistaPEanyway; you can make a backup from Vista. You need VistaPE to restore the backup of a system drive, and that's why I want to get it working.

#14 Lex Luthor

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 03:04 AM

Since it always fails to lock the drive, it appears that you do need VSS. I don't know what else is grabbing the drive.

I don't trust the backup that it makes under those cicumstances. I don't see why you want to make a backup from VistaPEanyway; you can make a backup from Vista. You need VistaPE to restore the backup of a system drive, and that's why I want to get it working.

I guess that's a good point. I can just make a backup from Vista.

Still, to make a backup, driveimage first tries to lock it, that fails, then tries to create a shadow. What I'm saying is that since I'm not using the drive at the time of the backup, why does it even need a shadow? I think the backup should go fine without either locking or shadowing it.

I guess a backup right out of Vista is good, but I'm still worried that using the drive while it's making an image is a little risky too.

#15 Nuno Brito

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 12:44 PM

That's how I use DriveImageXML and never had a problem restoring images when needed.

:cheers:

#16 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 01:39 PM

Still, to make a backup, driveimage first tries to lock it, that fails, then tries to create a shadow. What I'm saying is that since I'm not using the drive at the time of the backup, why does it even need a shadow? I think the backup should go fine without either locking or shadowing it.

Shadowing or locking is necessary to handle the problems caused when some program tries to change the drive in the future but while DriveImage is still working. Without a lock or a shadow, what does DriveImage do? Allowing another program to change the disk can lead to a corrupted backup because the other program's changes might also involve something that's already backed up; and trying to keep up with changes and modifying supposedly-done parts of the backup on the fly is a hassle that nobody wants to get into.

And you may think you are not using the drive, but you are incorrect; you do not know what VistaPE is doing on your behalf. There must be ways that one can see what is locking a drive, but I'm not familiar with them. Getting VSS working is the way to go.

I guess a backup right out of Vista is good, but I'm still worried that using the drive while it's making an image is a little risky too.

Don't worry about that. VSS works really well when it works at all. It's a robust and clever solution to the multitasking problem. Every decent backup program on every XP/2003/Vista/2008 workstation/server uses VSS.

What you should worry about is restoring. You can't restore to the boot disk. And apparently on your system you can't restore from BartPE. I don't know what would happen if you made a backup within Vista and then tried to restore from VistaPE. The thing to do is to try it but be prepared to quit just before the start of the restore. If it refuses to go that far then there's a real problem.

I should try that someday soon ... but I'm pretty busy.

#17 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 05:18 PM

Well, I added the stuff required for Vista, started DriveImage, and got an error dialog: "This program requires Windows XP or 2003". When I clicked Cancel (the only button), the DriveImage window started to appear and then crashed with an "instruction at 0x00000000 referenced memory at 0x0000000" error. Still some ways to go ...

#18 Nuno Brito

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 06:35 PM

The DriveImageXML development team might be interested in providing support for VistaPE.

Will send them a mail to ask their opinion.

:cheers:

#19 Lex Luthor

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 08:04 PM

What you should worry about is restoring. You can't restore to the boot disk. And apparently on your system you can't restore from BartPE. I don't know what would happen if you made a backup within Vista and then tried to restore from VistaPE. The thing to do is to try it but be prepared to quit just before the start of the restore. If it refuses to go that far then there's a real problem.

I should try that someday soon ... but I'm pretty busy.

I see your points. I'd *think* I'd be safe doing the backup w/o shadow under VistaPE, but sounds like I'm saying doing with Shadow from Vista. Ok.

I guess the wildcard left is what happens if I try a restore. Driveimage recognizes my drive from VistaPE now (not from BartPE). Since it's blowing away the partition, I guess it doesn't need locking/shadowing when restoring or does it? I've never tried a restore yet. I'm not really wanting to try this b/c if it doesn't work, I could blow away my windows install. Does Driveimage normally try to create a VSS when doing a restore or it doesn't even try that normally?

If anyone else ever does try it, please let me know.

Best thing if someone (driveimage team?) could figure out how to create a VistaPE script that includes all of the files necessary for VSS under VistaPE.

Any chance of that?

#20 Nuno Brito

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 08:37 PM

I've sent that email right after my last reply on this topic - reading on their page I see that mention that will provide no technical support for DIXML.

Let's hope this case can be considered an exception since we're all trying to see this app working ok under VistaPE.

Will keep you updated if they reply back.

:cheers:

#21 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:45 PM

Since it's blowing away the partition, I guess it doesn't need locking/shadowing when restoring or does it?

It's beeen a while since I restored, but I think you are correct; it just blows it away.

#22 JonF

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:47 PM

I've sent that email right after my last reply on this topic - reading on their page I see that mention that will provide no technical support for DIXML.

Let's hope this case can be considered an exception since we're all trying to see this app working ok under VistaPE.

We can hope ... perhaps you can pique their interest.

#23 Nuno Brito

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 12:10 AM

Hmm.. received a reply:

Sir:

Our software is not supported under Window PE, only BartPE.

Sincerely,
Jody Wilkes
Runtime Software


Don't think she'll forward our concern about WinPE 2.0 to the development team.. :cheers:

#24 Lex Luthor

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 12:14 AM

Hmm.. received a reply:


Don't think she'll forward our concern about WinPE 2.0 to the development team.. :thumbsup:

You ever hear back from them?

I've been making backups, but I'm somewhat worried that restoring under VistaPE might not work. Has anyone actually ever tried it?

Any other way to restore under Vista that has been tested?

#25 JonF

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 02:20 PM

I'm still playing with DriveImage XML under VistaPE. I do not have the VSS running. But I have some more information.

Vista implements "Transactional NTFS", allowing better error recovery. As far as DriveImage XML is concerned this means that Vista keeps the $LogFile file open on all NTFS volumes in the system, and therefore NTFS volumes are never lockable under Vista no matter what the boot media is.

For backing up, without VSS and without locking, DriveImage XML has to hope that no program modifies the disk in any significant manner while it's backing up. This may be a reasonable hope when booted from a VistaPE CD. However, since you can back up a partition with DriveImageXML while booted from your hard disk, I recommend you do that whenever possible rather than using DriveImage XML under VistaPE.

Restoring is the big question mark. Because of Transactional NTFS, you just aren't going to be able to restore to a partition that is formatted as NTFS (unless someone can figure a way to turn TNTFS off, which I doubt). But DriveImage XML can't see anything but formatted partitions, so you can't restore to an unformatted partition. I think that you could format the target partition as FAT32 and then restore an NTFS image, but I haven't yet had the cojones or the time to try this.

It seeems that the best way to use DriveIMage XML is an XP-based boot CD with appropriate drivers or driver packs installed.




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