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#1 Zoso

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 05:14 AM

hi all

I have used the factory restore cd to install a fresh Vista on an old laptop.

it created a recovery partition and the rest was used for the installation.

I deleted the recovery partition and then moved the OS partition to the start of the HDD then shrank it down to 20gb. rebooted to test and all is working so then I made a partition image of this with clonedisk.

next i reformatted the HDD and used rufus with W7 and installed fresh on a 50gb partition.

w7 is working fine. next i made a 2nd primary partition of 20gb with w7 diskmngr and shutdown W7 and rebooted from usb then used clondisk again to restore the vista onto the 2nd partition.

next i used EasyBCD and loaded the BCD store of the W7 and added a new entry for the vista on 2nd partition.


rebooted to the new entry and it starts ok but the first thing i notice is the "windows is preparing your new desktop" message then it doesnt complete and a rundll32.exe error popup appears which says "windows cannot access the specified device, path, or file. you may not have the appropriate permissions to access the item."

i click "ok" and then gets stuck with black background with cursor. if i hit cntrl alt del I cant select options for taskmanager, log off, etc. but cant get desktop working.

does anyone know what the issue could be or where to start to try and find it?

thanks

#2 ReTokener

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 07:30 AM

Dear Zoso

 

I deleted the recovery partition and then moved the OS partition to the start of the HDD then shrank it down to 20gb. rebooted to test and all is working so then I made a partition image of this with clonedisk.

If you say "all is working" - do you mean you created a user?

How far did you test the boot process at this point?

 

Regards   T.



#3 Zoso

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:04 AM

hi ReTokener

yes, the original vista is working perfectly, completed the boot process to the desktop and the first user was created. then, a couple of times i have rebooted it successfully. this is why i made the image with clonedisk of this. (because it works fine)

it is only after i place a copy of this image onto the second partition (after fresh install of W7) then using the BCD store from the W7 that is on the first partition then i see this error and incomplete boot.


thanks

#4 ReTokener

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:55 AM

Ok...

One idea I have is, to use grldr as bootmanager and start W7 or Vista independently from each other.

 

Howto:

Copy grldr and grldr.mbr to first partition (W7), install grub to mbr (by PE preferred).

Set menu.lst entries:

title 0 - Boot from Hard Drive (0,0) - Windows 7 (BOOTMGR) \n continue booting to windows 7
 hide (hd0,1)
 unhide (hd0,0)
 makeactive (hd0,0)
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /bootmgr
 chainloader /bootmgr

title 1 - Boot from Hard Drive (0,1) - Windows Vista (BOOTMGR) \n continue booting to windows Vista
 hide (hd0,0)
 unhide (hd0,1)
 makeactive (hd0,1)
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /bootmgr
 chainloader /bootmgr

hope this works for you,  T.

 

PS.

Feel free to ask for details.



#5 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 11:15 AM

I am not sure to have understood if you have deployed the Vista image to *another* partition. :unsure:

 

If you have, very likely you need to correct the DosDevices relevant keys, as they will lead to incorrect drive letter assignments (which may well cause the issue you are reporting).

 

An only seemingly unrelated (recent) thread:

 

http://reboot.pro/to...rom-a-vhd-file/

 

And - since you used Clonedisk - you should have been aware of the possible issues, that have been talked about alright on its thread:

http://reboot.pro/to...nedisk/?p=96165

 

Now, what would the "Re Discover Mounted Devices @next reboot" do? :dubbio: (under Advanced->Offline Registry).

 

Please understand how not necessarily in your case using the above feature will "fix" things, it depends by the EXACT way you have the disk partitioned, which devices you have connected, etc., etc., in your case you should manually inspect and correct the relevant keys. 

 

:duff:

Wonko



#6 Zoso

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 02:42 PM

Ok...
One idea I have is, to use grldr as bootmanager and start W7 or Vista independently from each other.

Feel free to ask for details.


i may use grub4dos if i cant get this to work from the W7 BCD but this is a friends system i am refreshing so i wanted to keep it as simple as possible.

thanks


I am not sure to have understood if you have deployed the Vista image to *another* partition. :unsure:

If you have, very likely you need to correct the DosDevices relevant keys, as they will lead to incorrect drive letter assignments (which may well cause the issue you are reporting).

An only seemingly unrelated (recent) thread:

http://reboot.pro/to...rom-a-vhd-file/

And - since you used Clonedisk - you should have been aware of the possible issues, that have been talked about alright on its thread:
http://reboot.pro/to...nedisk/?p=96165

Now, what would the "Re Discover Mounted Devices @next reboot" do? :dubbio: (under Advanced->Offline Registry).

Please understand how not necessarily in your case using the above feature will "fix" things, it depends by the EXACT way you have the disk partitioned, which devices you have connected, etc., etc., in your case you should manually inspect and correct the relevant keys.

:duff:
Wonko


hi Wonko,

the image i made was a partition image of this HDD when it had only a single primary partition of vista. after i imaged this i then reformatted and installed w7 then i made a second primary partition and then put the vista partition image onto the new second primary partition. (i hope this is clearer)

i had a feeling it may be a drive letter mix up so i tried clearing the mnt devs key but after that the result was the same error. i did not know how to rearrange the keys so i just cleared them all.

im not sure what has gone wrong, i thought i was doing this exactly as i have done before successfully but something is off.

now i will start over and try to get the vista image back on a single primary active partition and booting by itself as normal so that i can make a new image again. i must have done something incorrectly.

thanks

#7 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 03:50 PM

No, the issue is clear.

 

Your attempt to "fix" ended up (understandably) with the same result :w00t:.

Follow me please. 

 

When you install the Vista on the first (and ONLY at the moment you install it) primary partition THAT partition will get drive letter C:

The Mounted devices will have an explicit reference to that partition by the Disk Signature and the offset (normally 2048 sectors if created under Vista)

Then you create ANOTHER first partition to install the Windows 7 OR reuse that same partition (in both cases you will have the SAME Disk Signature AND offset, which is also normally 2048 sectors for 7).

Then you create a NEW primary partition (which will have still the SAME DIsk Signature - since it is on the same disk - BUT a much higher offset, let's say 100,000 sectors).

Now, the first time you will boot the Vista deployed on this second partition it will STILL have the info that the drive C: is the one that starts at offset 2048, and since it has NO info on the second partition it will assign to it another drive letter (probably D:, it depends on a number of factors).

So Vista will have half the OS pointing to the "wrong" drive.

 

But what happens if you clear the DosDevices key? :dubbio:

 

Most probably, since the OS has NO information whatever, it auto-assigns drive letters, starting with C: to the first primary partition it finds on first disk, then another letter (as above probably D:, it depends on a number of factors) to the next primary partition, putting the OS in EXACTLY THE SAME situation. :w00t: :ph34r:

 

You MUST tell Vista that drive letter C: is to be assigned to second primary partition, otherwise it won't ever work.

 

The "normal" way to do so is to let it get the "wrong" drive letters, then, while offline, exchange the data between C: and D: keys in the Registry.

 

Another way is to clear the Dosdevices keys AND hide the first primary partition when booting Vista the first time. (this way the automatic drive lettering will assign C: to the first partition it finds, which is the second one).

 

:duff:

Wonko



#8 Zoso

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 04:17 PM

that makes perfect sense.

Another way is to clear the Dosdevices keys AND hide the first primary partition when booting Vista the first time. (this way the automatic drive lettering will assign C: to the first partition it finds, which is the second one).

if i do this then i will not be able to use the BCD store on this partition to boot vista from it, correct?

if correct then i will also need to make the secondary the active one so i can use the original BCD, correct?

so after doing this way and booting it once or twice i should then be able to unhide the first partition and use the BCD store on it again to boot the vista on the second primary. correct?

i dont know these things so that is why i have ended with "correct", to get a yes or no about it.

thanks

#9 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 04:44 PM

that makes perfect sense.

if i do this then i will not be able to use the BCD store on this partition to boot vista from it, correct?

if correct then i will also need to make the secondary the active one so i can use the original BCD, correct?

so after doing this way and booting it once or twice i should then be able to unhide the first partition and use the BCD store on it again to boot the vista on the second primary. correct?

i dont know these things so that is why i have ended with "correct", to get a yes or no about it.

thanks

And the answer is "yes and no" to most of them. :w00t:

 

The issue here may be that you created the BCD entry for the Vista install on the SAME \boot\BCD that you use for your "normal" 7 boot, AFTER having installed and configured the 7 install, so (it depends on how exactly the entry for Vista has been created) it is entirely possible (even probable) that the Vista partition is D: in the \boot\BCD also.

As said it depends on how exactly the entry was added, there are some possible syntaxes of \boot\BCD entries that do refer to partition as "drive letter", see:

http://www.mistyrebo...iles/device.htm

 

So what you should do is:

1) Hide the first primary partition

2) Make the second partition "active"

3) Try booting, it should boot normally or, if it doesn't, run the Vista CD and make a "boot repair" (this way you will have the Vista BOOTMGR and proper \boot\BCD on the second - only visible - partition)

4) Now, unhide the first primary partiiton (the Vista should boot normally, keeping the C: drive letter for "self" and assigning D: to first partition, now visible)

5) Check the entries in the \boot\BCD on the first partition and - if the entry for Vista is "not drive letter dependent" - set the first partition active again and try booting from it

 

Possibly, you could set (temporarily) the partition ID of the first partition to "27" (which under at least 7 and later will make the OS NOT assign a drive letter to it) and leave it active, but it has to be seen how Vista interpreters the 0x27, I seem to remember that the use of the "separated" "boot partition" (what the good MS guys call "system") started with 7, I am not too sure about how Vista will behave with it. :dubbio:

http://www.mistyrebo...aults_bios.htm 

 

:duff:

Wonko



#10 Zoso

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 08:50 PM

i tried steps 1 & 2 you suggest and see this only when booting:
rigkZrJ.jpg

very weird. but now i will try step 3

edit: i tried step 3, the cd had the option for "start up repair" but it did not find any errors or problems. rebooted to the same strange symbols with blinking cursor.

so next i changed P1 to 0x27 type and made it active. then it rebooted back to the same "preparing desktop" and rundll error.

could this detail have anything to do with this?: the original restore cd that came with this computer has vista x86 (32bit) but the hardware is x64 so the w7 i installed is ultimate x64.

i have done this before on other systems using a 64bit os BCD to boot a 32bit OS and vis versa without problem but I was using embedded standard 7 both 64 and 32 on usb instead of w7 ultimate 64 and vista 32.

another thought is could it possibly be a faulty or buggy bios? that image i posted seems to indicate it could be.

i may still have a usb HDD around that has the 64 and 32 ES7 working together from the same BCD, i will check and if so test on this system.

#11 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:35 AM

so (it depends on how exactly the entry for Vista has been created) it is entirely possible (even probable) that the Vista partition is D: in the \boot\BCD also.
As said it depends on how exactly the entry was added, there are some possible syntaxes of \boot\BCD entries that do refer to partition as "drive letter"


EasyBCD does seem to use drive lettering and I was using EasyBCD from an outside OS (xp) and loading the BCDstore then saving it.

I guess its time to review mistys site again and see if i can figure out what EasyBCD has done and maybe start from scratch and make new BCD store using only bcdedit.exe, ive done this before but i do this so infrequently that i cant remember the proceedure each time i need it and was also hoping not to spend so much time on this as its not my system.

#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 08:56 AM

The blinking cursor - generally speaking - is a sign of either CODE or DATA in either the MBR or the PBR being invalid.

Since the MBR is OK (as you can boot from the first partition) the issue must be the PBR.

And since you moved the partition (actually imaged it and then re-deployed it to a different address) it is very likely that it is the PBR DATA (and namely the "sectors before").

If you made a "clone", you made a "clone", if you did not re-adapt/correct the "sector before" (basically the "self-address" of the PBR) you need to do it before attempting to boot it.

 

Use Clonedisk to check and correct the issue, the field in Clonedisk is called "HiddenSec" (in "BootSector"), it must be the same as "Sectors Before" in "Master Boot Record" (both are under "Advanced" menu).

 

:duff:

Wonko



#13 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 12:35 PM

I will try this and report back. i did not think sectors before would be any issue except for when booting from logical partitions.



edit:

screenshots:

QwTu2pe.jpg

9B84AaC.jpg

Wonko, can I do this with PowerQuest Partition Table Editor? this seems to me to be the exact same procedure we do to make XP able to boot from logical partition as misty shows here: http://www.mistyrebo...edit/index.html is this correct?

thanks

#14 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:32 PM

Why can't you do it normally with clonedisk?

 

Should you accept this mission, you will need to write 20917248 in the field "HiddenSec" (where currently the value is the "old" 2048) in the first screenshot.

 

But wait a minute, WHICH EXACT version of Clonedisk are you running? :dubbio:

erwan.l recently changed upon request the gray background in order to show editable fields (that are now white background):

http://reboot.pro/to...edisk/?p=203229

 

Also, there is something WRONG in what you posted.

The volume \\.\F: has 209,715,192 sectors, IT IS NOT the second partition that is only 20,475,904 sectors inside, if it is, you MUST also correct the total number of sectors, it is not that you *somehow* "shrinked" the partition or - worse - applied the partition image to a smaller one? :w00t: :ph34r:

BTW, none of the values lead to "20 Gb", the partition is either 102,400 Mb or around 10 Gb.

 

And no, the total number of sectors is not an editable field in Clonedisk.

 

Anyway, get LATEST Clonedisk, NOT "a recent one", NOT "the one I have handy", NOT a "but it always worked", LATEST one.

Get to the Master Boot Record view (your second screenshot) and click on the three dots button near the second entry and choose "Open Boot Sector" (this way we are sure you got to the "right" bootsector).

And post again the same screenshots.

 

:duff:

Wonko



#15 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:50 PM

so it is the same as the proceedure for making XP boot from logical? PTEdit is the normal way (that i have become most familiar with)

this is clonedisk 2.3.5 i will get the next one (wish he would put version in filename)

Also, there is something WRONG in what you posted.
The volume \\.\F: has 209,715,192 sectors, IT IS NOT the second partition that is only 20,475,904 sectors inside, if it is, you MUST also correct the total number of sectors, it is not that you *somehow* "shrinked" the partition or - worse - applied the partition image to a smaller one? :w00t: :ph34r:


sometimes when i am using clonedisk to restore an image to a partition, the image is slightly smaller than the partition but if the image is larger than the partition, clonedisk has popup indicating image is larger and ask if you want to continue. i do not continue when that is the case but i have applied a slightly smaller partition image many times with success. i did that here too i think.


I wish clonedisk could do all these adjustment itself. lol i will be right back with new clonedisk screencaps.

#16 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 01:59 PM

Rks9KMR.jpg
bO4zVKJ.jpg

BTW reboot download link currently has v2.3.5

#17 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 02:04 PM

Look, the filesystem of the image you applied (data in its bootsector) shows a number of sectors: 209,715,192

 

The partition size (data in the second entry in the MBR) shows a number of sectors: 20,475,904.

The first is NOT slightly smaller, it is TEN TIMES BIGGER (roughly).

 

AND it is not how in this kind of business there is much way for "approximation".

 

A partition entry in the MBR MUST contain EXACTLY the same sectors as in the PBR (and viceversa) with ONE exception (which is BTW your case) of NTFS where the sectors in the filesystem needs to be EXACTLY one sector less than the amount in the MBR partition entry (as that sector inside the partition but outside the filesystem is reserved to the $BootMirr, i.e. the second copy of the first sector of the PBR).

 

Anything not EXACTLY following the above is likely to create - before or later - issues, including, but not limited to, loss of data.

 

Of course it is your system and your data, so you are free to invent your own ways of doing things :), but doing things EXACTLY (and accordingly to "standards", either official or "de facto") has in the long run demonstrated to be safer/better.

 

I don't care whether Clonedisk warned you or not that you were attempting to fit a 100 Gb filesystem inside a 10 Gb partition, but you shouldn't have even THOUGHT of doing that.  :frusty:

 

For all we know you might have a truncated filesystem, missing half the files or even parts of the NTFS filesystem structures. :whistling:

 

:duff:

Wonko



#18 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 02:11 PM

hmm.. i havnt (and wouldnt) knowingly put a 100gb filesystem in a 10gb space. something has gone screwy here. i will post a diskmgr screenshot. BRB

gicsbBA.jpg

the first partition is the W7 one that was 20gb when i started then enlarged it to 100gb

the second it the Vista and when I get it booting correctly i plan to enlarge it also.

I start small so i can keep BU images along the way. I dont have the space to keep 100gb BU images and it would also take way more time.

#19 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 02:33 PM

i have another smaller SSD that i can put the clonedisk Vista image onto by itself.

when i do this, Vista works fine. how would you suggest that i image this again from here (the smaller SSD with working Vista) and restore it to the new larger SDD next to W7?

the plan is to enlarge the Vista partition to 50gb and then use the left over space for data storage.

should i be using some other imaging software for all this? i like clonedisk but if there is something else that can do these operations and automatically adjust things to work then that would save lots of time and headaches for me.

#20 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 03:54 PM

Of course there is no end of suitable software to shrink and enlarge partitions as much as you want, but it is the "philosophy" of "let me make a partition, no it's too big, let me shrink it, no now is too little, let me enlarge it, no, wait, I created  a too large volume, let me clone it to an image then let me deploy it to a random sized partitoin without checking, etc." that is IMHO fundamentally flawed.

 

1) Design/describe what you want to do.

2) Study the most convenient way to reach that goal.

3) Write down EACH and EVERY single step needed to reach that goal.

4) If you are not confident about any of the steps involved or however are unsure if the methods you devised are correct, ask for assistance or suggestions BEFORE going on.

5) Loop to #2 going through #3 and #4 until you are satisfied with the theory

6) Now -and only now - try doing EXACTLY what you jolted down in #3

 

From the little I have understood about your "general plan", the ONLY thing that you seemingly DO NOT need is a "clone" of anything.

A "clone" is an EXACT copy of something, EXACT.

If the scope is different from having an EXACT copy of something, a "clone" (or a forensic or dd-like image) is not the right approach, as a "clone" will contain very specifc data that will need to be changed to adapt the "clone" to a new (larger, smaller, different position, etc.) situation and BTW it is additionally not convenient BOTH about the time needed to make (and deploy) the image AND about the disk space needed to store it.

 

So it is "queer" the choice of a tool called Clonedisk for that.

 

You should have of course ;) chosen the (Commercial BTW) "XXCLONE" (which obviously does not make any "clone" :w00t:) or anyway a file-based copy system, like Clonezilla (that also doesn't actually make normally any "clone").

 

Only to show how some tools have very deceptive names.

 

As a matter of fact even Clonedisk besides making a "clone" can save to the .WIM format (which is not a clone, nor a forensic sound image, it is just a "filesystem container", more similar to a zip or 7x archive than anything else) .

 

If you plan to move OS's (and their partitions/volumes) here and there you will need anyway to be prepared to the needed adaptation steps (unless you get an auto-magical software that can do all that automatically).

 

Please take some time reading some more info on the matter I wrote down some time ago:

http://www.msfn.org/...comment=1007158

 

:duff:

Wonko



#21 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 05:57 PM

I learned from Erwan how to How to append a disk master boot record to a partition image.

can a disk image (made with clonedisk) be used as a partition image? for restoring only a partition? does it need modifications to do this? i think i tried it before as-is and it didnt work but that was long ago so i could be incorrect.

I have Vista back on the SSD by itself and working so now i want to move that so that i have 100gb in front of it, verify it still works from there then make a 100gb partition that i put the W7 image on but i only have a disk image and not a partition image for the W7.

#22 Zoso_The_Internet_Tard

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 06:25 PM

It's no problem to dual-boot Vista and 7 but.....why would you want to? 7 is basically nothing more than a much improved version of Vista with very few changes. 7 should have been released as Vista Service Pack 3 (albeit a huge one) rather than as a new OS. But of course Microsoft can't make money on an SP, so it was in the best interest of their profits to release it standalone. It's redundant to have both. And you don't need to use GRUB4DOS either. Just install one OS at a time into whatever partition you want it to be in, let setup complete (get to desktop logged in as a user), then reboot and install the other OS. 7 will detect Vista's presence and vice versa, and should automatically add an entry for it in the boot menu, unless you're doing things in a non-standard way. No need to make the process more complex than it should be.



#23 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:03 PM

I learned from Erwan how to How to append a disk master boot record to a partition image.

can a disk image (made with clonedisk) be used as a partition image? for restoring only a partition? does it need modifications to do this? i think i tried it before as-is and it didnt work but that was long ago so i could be incorrect.

I have Vista back on the SSD by itself and working so now i want to move that so that i have 100gb in front of it, verify it still works from there then make a 100gb partition that i put the W7 image on but i only have a disk image and not a partition image for the W7.

Then you learned it backwards :w00t:, when you put a MBR BEFORE a partition image it is called pre-pend. :whistling:

 

It seems to me like you have not (yet) clear the concepts. :(

 

The Vista on the SSD (actually the SSD) is a "whole disk".

If you image the SSD as RAW it will be a disk image.

If you image just the partition (with Vista on it) as RAW, it will be a volume (or partition) image.

 

BOTH are VERY useful if you want to restore a system EXACTLY as it was and BOTH are NOT SO suited to be deployed to a different address/differently sized partition.

 

For your use you DO NOT NEED (nor want) any of those images.

 

You want to make a .WIM image (which by definition is a volume image, actually a volume contents copy) and then apply it to a NEW partition that you create on the target device.

 

If you don't fully understand the above differences you need to study a little bit the matter.

 

:duff:

Wonko



#24 Zoso

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:27 PM

Then you learned it backwards :w00t:, when you put a MBR BEFORE a partition image it is called pre-pend. :whistling:


well, thats what he called it.. http://labalec.fr/erwan/?p=1550


seems to me like you have not (yet) clear the concepts. :(

You want to make a .WIM image (which by definition is a volume image, actually a volume contents copy) and then apply it to a NEW partition that you create on the target device.


that was helpful to me, i havnt used .wim and never really comprehended what they were until now.

so its sorta like the file copy feature in the old clonedisk versions except it packages them i guess.

I still use the old clonedisk for file copy with 'keep ACLs' feature sometimes to do this and was considering do that again here. right now im trying acronis to see if that will do what i want here.

I would like to learn how to do this operation with .wim and i see clonedisk has .wim feature. will that do it?

thanks

#25 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 09:43 PM

Sure, but he is French, and sometimes it happens to mix up two words in a non-native language:

http://reboot.pro/to...mdisk/?p=190393

(and you were there alright ;))

 

A header is pre-pended, a footer is appended.

 

More or less, using a .wim container is exactly the way the Microsoft Vista/7 OS is installed (or actually can be installed):
http://reboot.pro/to...external-drive/

 

You have (inside the .wim) all the files needed, with the right date/time/acl's/whatever, and then you deploy them to a new partition, then you fix the booting parameters, BCD, etc.

 

Still in your case, you will have the same issue about drive letters if you move the partition (from first to second MBR entry) and you will need to correct them in the Registry as told.

 

:duff:

Wonko






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