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WinBuilder on Vista x64 does not seem to work?


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#1 ptr727

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 06:42 PM

I am running WinBuilder 069 Beta 6 on XP x86 SP2 and on Vista x64, on XP x86 SP2 it works, on Vista x64 it does not.

On XP SP2 the main page opens with a URL pointing to the web that explains how to use WinBuilder, and on the download tab I see a tree view with files to download.
On Vista x64 the main page opens with a URL pointing to a resource in the winbuilder.exe, and on the download tab no files are listed.
I tried running WinBuilder as admin, no difference.

I could not find any docs or posts that says WinBuilder is not supposed to work on Vista x64, is it?

Thx

#2 pscEx

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 06:51 PM

I could not find any docs or posts that says WinBuilder is not supposed to work on Vista x64, is it?


1st: Welcome to our community, ptr727!

2nd: Congratulations!
Now Phox has a Vista handicapped friend!

That was a little bit ironic. To the reality:

There are really known issues when running WinBuilder on a Vista host.

Sorry, they are unsolved now (maybe, they are not even known at all).
Your issue seems to be an unknown one.

We all are working on that, but you have to be a little bit patient.

Peter

#3 ptr727

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 07:06 PM

1st: Welcome to our community, ptr727!

2nd: Congratulations!
Now Phox has a Vista handicapped friend!

That was a little bit ironic. To the reality:

There are really known issues when running WinBuilder on a Vista host.

Sorry, they are unsolved now (maybe, they are not even known at all).
Your issue seems to be an unknown one.

We all are working on that, but you have to be a little bit patient.

Peter


Thank you for the prompt reply :confused1:
For now I'll just build on XP, and I'll look forward to a Vista compatible version.

#4 Nuno Brito

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 07:07 PM

wb is compiled under delphi 7 and it seems that Borland has no intentions to release a x64 delphi compiler for Windows applications. http://blogs.msdn.co.../02/446697.aspx

As a possible solution they point the wonders of using .NET instead of a native Windows and create a new wb binary from scratch under a different compiler.

If 16 bit applications are supported on 32 bit OS - why aren't 32 bit supported by 64 bit OS's using something like wow (windows on windows)? :confused1:


Sorry - I also use Vista, but this means no wb support for x64 so soon.. :confused1:

btw: Just found this info from lazarus (open source delphi alternative):
http://www.lazarus.f...h...opic&t=3749

Maybe these are good news.. :confused1:

#5 ptr727

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 07:21 PM

wb is compiled under delphi 7 and it seems that Borland has no intentions to release a x64 delphi compiler for Windows applications. http://blogs.msdn.co.../02/446697.aspx

As a possible solution they point the wonders of using .NET instead of a native Windows and create a new wb binary from scratch under a different compiler.

If 16 bit applications are supported on 32 bit OS - why aren't 32 bit supported by 64 bit OS's using something like wow (windows on windows)? :blink:
Sorry - I also use Vista, but this means no wb support for x64 so soon.. :mellow:

btw: Just found this info from lazarus (open source delphi alternative):
http://www.lazarus.f...h...opic&t=3749

Maybe these are good news.. :cheers:


For the most part WIN32 applications work just fine on WIN64 OS'es.
On x64 OS'es only drivers MUST be native x64 code, same applies to IA64, usermode code can be x86 or x64.

There are no technical reasons why x86 WIN32 WinBuilder should not run on Vista x86 or x64.
There may be some porting work required to make sure the app is following all "rules" for playing nice with the OS, but this should simply be a matter of finding the "bugs" and fixing them, the same obviously applies to all components or libraries used by WinBuilder.

#6 Nuno Brito

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 08:33 PM

Thanks for explaining - I've never handled a x64 machine around here.

Looking again on your first reply based on the explanations from the above post I can suggest that that only network acess seems unprepared for x64.

Can you try downloading and testing a wb project (effectively creating a boot disk) on XP x32 and then use the same folder for running wb under Vista x64?

If you have some time for these testings I can also learn a whole more with your feedback and this way try to isolate the components which output errors on x64 platforms (not just vista related I guess).


About the "Rules" you are right and UAC is very restrictive - under Vista you will need to disable it in order to be allowed to load hives for creating windows based projects.

UAC might also be the reason for not acessing the internet - try disabling Firewall, UAC and antivirus (if any) in order to remove them from the list of possible reasons that can interfer with wb getting online.


Thanks for explaining x64 in more detail - really hope this can be solved, delphi7 outputs very good results and wouldn't like to move from building environment because of all these new rules.. :confused1:

#7 smiley

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 08:45 PM

What do yuo mean does not seem to work? Doeas it start, or it fails to build?

#8 ptr727

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 10:51 PM

What do yuo mean does not seem to work? Doeas it start, or it fails to build?

Here are some pictures to show what I see:
WinBuilderWeb.png
WinBuilderDownload.png

#9 Nuno Brito

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 10:54 PM

Yes, network acess is completely disabled - not even the IE activeX is working..

Are you connected on the internet while running wb?

Do you use any proxy, and if so - have you configured IE to use proxy as well?

(Just a few doubts..)

:confused1:

#10 ptr727

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 02:00 AM

Yes, network acess is completely disabled - not even the IE activeX is working..

Are you connected on the internet while running wb?

Do you use any proxy, and if so - have you configured IE to use proxy as well?

(Just a few doubts..)

:confused1:


Thanks to all for suggestions, but I really don't think this can be effectively remotely debugged, at least I am not up to it :confused1:

I think best would be for the developers to debug on Vista x86 / x64 on real / virtual machines.

#11 Nuno Brito

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 06:35 AM

I already use Vista at 32bit - Just wanted to know if you had this x64 machine connected to the internet.. :confused1:

#12 pscEx

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 06:56 PM

Thanks to all for suggestions, but I really don't think this can be effectively remotely debugged, at least I am not up to it :confused1:
I think best would be for the developers to debug on Vista x86 / x64 on real / virtual machines.


Sorry, ptr727, I'm feeling a little bit angry.

There have been two simple questions:

Are you connected on the internet while running wb?
Do you use any proxy, and if so - have you configured IE to use proxy as well?


To answer questions with statements and suggestions, will not help to solve an issue.

It is well known that serious meant questions are never stupid, only answers can be stupid.

Peter

#13 ptr727

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 09:05 PM

Sorry, ptr727, I'm feeling a little bit angry.

There have been two simple questions:
To answer questions with statements and suggestions, will not help to solve an issue.

It is well known that serious meant questions are never stupid, only answers can be stupid.

Peter


Peter, I am sorry that my reply angered you.
At the time asking me if the machine has internet conectivity seemed inconsequential.

Yes, the Vista x64 machine is connected to a network that has internet access.
No, no proxies are used.
No, there are no other problems on the machine.
Yes, I tried running the app as admin, i.e. elevated.
Yes, I tried running the app from a path without spaces.
Yes, I ran the app in a debugger to look for obvious errors.
Yes, I ran registry monitor and file monitor to look for obvious errors.


I still feel that the best way to find out what is wrong is for the developers to actually debug on a Vista x64 machine.


Regards
P.

#14 pscEx

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 06:43 AM

I still feel that the best way to find out what is wrong is for the developers to actually debug on a Vista x64 machine.


Currently at least for me that is an issue of equipment (having the X64 machine).

Can you make a test:
Switch the firewall off for some seconds and then start winbuilder.

Peter

#15 Nuno Brito

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 09:05 AM

I also disabled both Firewall and UAC on Vista - load hive function didn't worked even when running wb with elevated privileges.

Unfortunatelly I don't have any x64 version of Vista to debug this matter.. :confused1:

#16 Holger

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:38 AM

@Nuno: how do you check if a computer is connected to the internet or not?
Maybe in these internal function calls is a problem (do you also read some registry values out or are these only network-API-calls?)
I'm just programming in C++ so I have not much knowing about Delphi (TurboPascal-programming is about 10years ago :confused1:) but maybe I could help you a little bit.

(Maybe at the end of the month I will upgrade my PC (new board, cpu, etc) and I wanted to buy also 64Bit OS...we will see...)

Greets :confused1:
Holger

#17 Nuno Brito

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 10:56 AM

Hi Holger!

You can read the wb's initial network detection details here:
http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=13760

No registry values are read - at least to my knowledge.

Previously I was using an win32 API to ping, but it was faulty on some machines - medevil complained a lot because it wasn't supported on XP SP1 (never figured out the reason why), but replacing with a built-in ping has solved this matter.

I really appreciate your help - networking is always a troublesome area and your experience is very welcome to debug this issue.

If needed I can completely hide/disable any network dependency and make wb completely aware when it is offline - I just haven't done it yet because I am in doubt on how to do it..

Holger, do you happen to know if windows send any message when a computers gets online?

It would be an efficient way to enable/disable the web tab and download center - at least a better option that adding a timer to ping the host and check the response since this event would be fired up when the computer starts an active network connection.

The main goal of network support is working on both Internet and Intranet.

Wouldn't solve the matter - but at least it would still make wb usuable and users would only need to manually add projects to proceed.


Happy shopping for a new computer - a 64 bit CPU seems fun! :confused1:

#18 ptr727

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 05:58 PM

Running a WIN32 app on on a WIN64 OS only needs special code when doing special things.

The two most common situations are when the 32bit app is trying to open registry keys or files that are redirected for 32bit apps. E.g. HKLM\Software is actually HKLM\Software\Wow6432Node, System32 is actually SysWoW64.

This requires the use of Wow64DisableWow64FsRedirection() to disable filesystem redirection, and using the KEY_WOW64_64KEY or KEY_WOW64_32KEY flags when opening registry keys.
See:
http://msdn2.microso...y/aa365743.aspx
http://msdn2.microso...y/ms724072.aspx

And obviously never use hardcoded paths, always query the OS for paths using SHGetFolderPath().

There are multiple ways to determine if a machine has an active network connection, there are also multiple ways to be notified when the connection state changes, some of the notification techniques however only work for drivers and services. The simplest technique may just be to try and connect to the server of interest, e.g. connect to the web server using WinHTTP.

For more advanced IP and network functionality the IP Helper APIs are one of the easier ways to accomplish this, but only support on XP SP2+.
See:
http://msdn2.microso...y/aa366073.aspx

Maybe this helps.

#19 Holger

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:35 PM

@Nuno: how do you use a ping over a proxy?
Did you implemented into the internal ping-function a proxy-using (however this could be done)?
Otherwise thisone would explain why this isn't working at my workplace.
It's difficult.
Maybe you should add an option to disable this internal ping.
@ptr727: some functions of IPHelper work since 98 :confused1:
However, I tried that good sounding function "InternetGetConnectedState(Ex)" - which is horrorable bad :confused1:
My computer is connected over WLan/DSL-Modem with the internet.
And this function returns that my "LAN-Connection" (which is completely disabled) does this connection... :confused1:

#20 Nuno Brito

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:11 PM

Ping shares the same settings as the download center from the same set of components - when ping works, the download works.. :confused1:

Back to the testings! :confused1:

#21 Holger

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:52 PM

Ah, OK.
I'm asking cause (I read) that the most (like the default from Windows) Ping's don't support proxies (using ICMP.dll, IcmpSendEcho...).

#22 Nuno Brito

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:14 PM

Yes, I agree with you. I was first using windows API - but it proven very unstable results as you've mentioned, on most machines it would work but on some it just didn't..

MedEvil helped out debugging this out from a XP SP1 based OS.

:confused1:

#23 Holger

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:49 PM

Hi Nuno :confused1:

I got my 64Bit system running (for testing only at the moment cause I do not have all the new devices completely here - old HD, Videocard).
It's running now with Vista64(RC1).
At the moment I'm also downloading Windows2003x64 SP2 Trial.
So I will do some tests later/tomorrow and give you some results again...

Greets and many thanks for PM-infos and friend-adding :confused1:
Holger

#24 Nuno Brito

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 03:52 PM

Happy testing!! :confused1:

#25 Holger

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Posted 18 May 2007 - 08:06 PM

Hi Nuno :confused1:

some pretest results:
- Downloading works here - both, in W2003X64 and VistaX64RC1

At the moment I have some problems to build a LiveXP-CD.
There is the error message that I have to "... select a Window XP Install CD or Windows 2003 Install CD".
I selected the path to the W2K3x64 install files.
I think here is an error in the source checking.
Do you have an idea - maybe also a workaround for this?
How do you check if it is a correct source?
Greets
Holger

Edit got it (I think) - script is running now.
What I did:
- copied AMD64 to another folder
- renamed AMD64 to I386
- copied all files until the letter "W" from original I386 folder to the new 'I386'-folder




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