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#1 simonking

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 01:16 PM

As requested by jaclaz, I am opening a new thread here.

I've just sent the Wikipedia the following email:


Dear Wikipedia,

I have had an appalling experience with one of your administrators as I have described here:

http://www.zipmagic....ic.php?f=4&t=48

I am _not_ contacting you about the deletion of my content, which you allege is spam, and I maintain is not. But that is your domain to decide.

I *am* contacting you about the deletion of my objection on user ZIPmagic’s talk page. This is blatant censorship, pure and simple, and casts doubt on Kinu’s original decision.

As a past Wikipedia donator, I think I’ve sent the wrong people my money. As a current Wikipedia reader, I am saddened to see that it’s not what its advertised to be.

- Simon King.

 

 

Please don't hesitate to cast your own vote in the ballot.

Especially you, jaclaz :)



#2 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 01:25 PM

Well, actually as requested by Wonko the Sane (though they may be the same person, they are not the same character ;)).

Reference is here:

 

 


I'm going to go off-topic here with just one small question/voting poll:

http://www.zipmagic....ic.php?f=4&t=48

I thought I'd ask for the insight of jaclaz, most especially, before I make up my mind on this one...as he knows, I'm pretty touchy about censorship. I find it amazing that even my response on the Wikipedia talk page was not allowed to sit as-is, but censored entirely.

 

But if you want to make a poll, then you might need to actually "make a poll".

You should have the ability to set a poll question and answers to be chosen among, on the right side, when you start a new topic, you should see a tiny:

 

Poll
Manage Topic Poll

 

link, click on it, then follow the "wizard".

 

 

:duff:

Wonko



#3 simonking

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 01:30 PM

Seems like its too late for that option, I cannot seem to find that when I try to edit the thread. An admin is welcome to make the edit.

 

Anyways, what I am really more interested is in your opinion - given your background with past censorship that my product has encountered.

 

I am really quite curious as to what your reflections are on this case.

 

And of course, anyone else who'd care to comment, feedback welcome.



#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 02:03 PM


I'm going to go off-topic here with just one small question/voting poll:

http://www.zipmagic....ic.php?f=4&t=48

I thought I'd ask for the insight of jaclaz, most especially, before I make up my mind on this one...as he knows, I'm pretty touchy about censorship. I find it amazing that even my response on the Wikipedia talk page was not allowed to sit as-is, but censored entirely.

Well, jaclaz is also  pretty touchy on false or hidden advertisement, so not necessarily his view might be of any help for you.
 
The good guys at Wikipedia are notoriously very, very, very strict about what they allow to be published, and they have a set of rules that are very, very, very complex.
 
I tried reading and understanding them a couple of times and in both occasions gave up, partly because of the complexity of the rules, partly because of them not being compliant with my (traditional, obsolete, and prehistoric/dinosaurish) ideas on how an encyclopedia should be made. 
 
I dug a bit inside the way the Wikipedia is set when a good guy (Nanni Bassetti that makes a fully free AND open source Linux forensics distribution called CAINE http://www.caine-live.net/ ) has been treated much worse than you were.

 

Though in the specific case of zipmagic and your evidently commercially driven plug   :w00t: :ph34r: for it they were IMHO 100% right, this does not mean that I change my firm belief in the fact that among the many good guys at Wikipedia there is a not-so-trifling percentage of total morons or however people without the minimal idea of what is "right", what is "wrong" and how their own rules (which are in my perverted mind stupidly laid out and stupidly implemented/applied)  are to be interpreted and applied.

 

I have seen too many discussions on the "sex of angels" in the wikipedia "discuss" pages to have any faith in the actual "quality" of what you can find of Wikipedia, which BTW is fine, as long as one knows that info you find in there can be either accurate or completely wrong, and checks him/herself the actual matter once having peeked at the pages.

What I know is that almost everytime I "land" on a wikipedia page related to a field/specific topic on which I am knowledgeable (or "knowledgeable enough") I find lots of inaccuracies or simply "wrong" informations.

 

You can read (it is not that bad through google translate ;)) Nanni Bassetti's story here:

http://nannibassetti...sp?articolo=182

https://translate.go...sp?articolo=182

 

 

The differences are that in his case he was right (and the reported issues are relative to the Italian Wikipedia), while in your case, you are wrong (and you are talking of the "international" en.wikipedia). 

 

You might want anyway, to get familiar with what Wikipedia is NOT :

http://en.wikipedia....ikipedia_is_not

(and yes, it will take you some time :()

 
BTW you shouldn't IMHO put to much accent on the "collaborative effort", as it might seems that the "peers" are somehow connected with Zipmagic (which they are not, they simply helped you - for free, let this be clear - in solving a couple - or more - issues you were having).
 
 
:duff:
Wonko



#5 milindsmart

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 02:11 PM

I think that the words "one-click" set off alarms in his head, but still deleting the entire thing is NOT justifiable.

Deleting the comments from the talk page is unquestionably wrong.

Frankly, Wikipedia is virtually broken, but that doesn't mean there are too many alternatives. Nothing can be too much better than this unless the medium of communication changes. That's one of my long term aims, and I have a pretty good idea how that will work, but maybe later. For now, what you have done is quite appropriate. That guy seems like an officious rule-upholder with no grasp of the possibility that he might be a hypocrite.

#6 simonking

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 02:47 PM

Curious about your long term aim :)



#7 milindsmart

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 02:55 PM

I'm going to be tight-lipped about this : basically non-textual content. Instead of running text, have a traversable lexical tree.



#8 simonking

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 02:57 PM

Nice!



#9 synchronicity

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 03:31 PM

The fact is that Wikipedia is *not* a place to advertise commercial software, or any other software for that matter.

 
Software may be notable if it is covered by a sufficient number of *independent* sources (i.e. *not* sponsored by the person/organization responsible for selling them).  I don't believe DoubleSpace currently meets that criteria.
 
Statements like "literally doubles the storage of any Surface Pro tablet in a single-click" are written in an advertising tone and are not appropriate for Wikipedia.  (For that matter, why don't you see if DoubleSpace "literally doubles" the storage if you fill it up with incompressible data like JPEGs, MP3s, or movies first...)
 
Talk pages are routinely cleaned up, and their full history is maintained and publicly available, so it isn't necessarily "censorship" to have conversations deleted.  Especially after a user has been banned *and* attempted to circumvent that ban.
 
Just my $0.02.


#10 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 03:48 PM

 

Statements like "literally doubles the storage of any Surface Pro tablet in a single-click" are written in an advertising tone and are not appropriate for Wikipedia.  (For that matter, why don't you see if DoubleSpace "literally doubles" the storage if you fill it up with incompressible data like JPEGs, MP3s, or movies first...)

 

Yep :), most probably they are regarded (with actually some merit) as puffery :w00t: :ph34r: :

http://en.wikipedia....ns_of_promotion

http://en.wikipedia....o_watch#Puffery

 

Which BTW was more or less the same kind of issue discussed previously with some of Simon's claims about ZipMagic on his site (was MagicRAR).

The wording may be OK on a Commercial site and is actually a not too bad "sales pitch", but it is unsuitable for a "independent" article, let alone Wikipedia.

Example:

Three Transparent Full Disk Compression Tools
ZIPmagic includes not one, not two, but three full disk compression tools. From Tablet PCs to expensive SSDs, from virtual servers to private servers; ZIPmagic's full disk compression doubles or even triples your disk capacity. DriveSpace is the most versatile option, running on every Windows version, and compressing files and apps while they're still open! DoubleSpace is perfect for compressing your boot disks, and it easily doubles your disk capacity! Stacker can only be used on non-boot disks, but it achieves ratios nearing 4.0:1.

 

 

:duff:

Wonko



#11 simonking

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 05:43 PM

jaclaz, while predictably disagreeing with my being right in this case, actually provided some justification for my suspicions regarding Wikipedia.

 

Eric, your feedback is the kind I wish Wikipedia's editors had provided me with in the first place - as I had asked for it originally after the first negative edit they made - and never got.

 

milindsmart, you appear to understand me best in this scenario.

 

Thanks everyone very much for your input!



#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:59 PM

As I see it, you mistook the direction of the flow. :w00t:

 

The flow goes *like*:

  • become relevant -> eventually get cited on Wikipedia

 

and not:

  • cite oneself on Wikipedia -> become relevant

 

BTW, nice hijacking work you (and old and new friends ) did on http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/ :whistling:

 

:duff:

Wonko



#13 simonking

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 03:09 PM

Yes, that is why I'm disappointed with Wikipedia. You see, when the Internet was brand new, it was actually a real tool to empower MicroISVs such as ZIPmagic. Software was novel. Online sales were novel. Software consumers were educated. There was virtually no crapware. So you could actually get noticed through grassroots sites like Wikipedia. People would appreciate what you'd be doing, and not label you a spammer, just because you were trying to level the playing field with yourself and the mega-corporations.

 

You actually *could* use the Internet back then to level the playing field with the mega-corporations.

 

Fast forward to today, and you have the chicken-egg problem. You have to be real big to get mention on places like Wikipedia. Well, if I'm already that big, I don't need a mention on Wikipedia. And for the record, if you Google ZIPmagic, you'll already find outlets which have picked up my press releases, found them newsworthy, and published articles based on them. If that trigger happy American hadn't rushed to delete my entries and actually bothered to provide guidance, I'm sure he would have agreed. But he's getting hammered by tons of actually frivolous edits each day, that he's had it with it all, and his job success in fact depends on his trigger happiness. Sound familiar?

 

Same with respect to the people accusing me of hijacking threads on tabletpcreview. They're trying to solve a problem - WIMBoot'ing. I've got a solution that does it in one click, and in many ways much better than you could with WIMBoot; in fact I've grown to 11 reasons why you should use DoubleSpace, or 11 things you wish you could do with WIMBoot and can't:

 

http://www.zipmagic....oublespace.html

 

Now people could respond to this in a couple of ways. They could say you're shamelessly self-promoting (like wts here), or they could realize I've solved their problem in a much better way than they could ever hope for, and thank me for it. You get both kinds, it goes both ways. But in the past, you got more thanks than complaints for sure. Now, I consider myself lucky if I have a few appreciations for the work I've done, such as those shared on tabletpcreview.

 

I believe all the crapware publishers out there are casting serious doubt on the credibility of legitimate sites like my http://www.zipmagic.co. This is why people on some other forums like donationcoder go rabid and accuse me of being a snake oil salesman. Just like the Wikipedia editor, they've been hammered so many times with the junk, that they no longer recognize the diamond buried in the mud with the rest of it all. The non-educated consumer has simply been burnt too many times by crapware. Of course, crapware couldn't reasonably claim to be crapware, and it has to claim to be the best. For that matter, look at any archiver, they all claim to be the best. I attribute the current over-suspicion primarily to over-saturation of the market, and even more so, the rabid proliferation of utter junk software for the PC (in addition to, everything else Microsoft have been doing to bury their own platform, of course).

 

I've given ZIPmagic my best. It certainly was a great experience building the latest DoubleSpace technology of it. I very much enjoyed collaborating with Synchronicity, the level of technical support I received from him exceeds, without a doubt, the level of service one receives from allegedly professional, and commercially successful software component vendors. While only a masochist could enjoy the perpetual harassment of wts, I also found it very interesting that his idea actually helped me cross a huge chasm in building DoubleSpace: That of running Windows in exclusive processing mode; with Misty being a much more friendlier and compassionate help at that end. All of this has been great.

 

But when it comes down to marketing, its just a dead-end all around. The Internet is simply not what it used to be. The mega-corporations have all woken up. Like a decade ago. Heck, the governments have even woken up, and are using the Internet to spy on everyone and everything. This is certainly a very, very different world than it was just two decades ago.

 

I now see, truly, how naïve I was in my adherence to futurism.



#14 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 03:57 PM

Well, at the time Zipmagic (and seamless integration of zip files as folders) was actually "news" the Internet was very different (JFYI):

http://www.krollontr...ressRelease=115

http://www.amazon.co...c/dp/B00004XOKT

http://www.itreviews...k-zipmagic-4-0/

http://www.ontrack.c...roddesc0701.doc

 

 

:lol:

 

Seriously, noone has any doubt on the 100% legitimacy of your site, only Wikipedia is not the place to put self-promotion in, again check the given page:

http://en.wikipedia....ikipedia_is_not

 

Set aside if it is good or bad, it is simply not the suitable place (and they actually tell you in advance):

http://en.wikipedia....ns_of_promotion

and surely, though I am sure you are convinced about your statements, as Synchronicity pointed out, your writing style and attempt to promote the tool was not conforming with their policies.

 

On an "open forum", it is different, anyone can have his opinion on something else and state it (as long as this is not offensive or against the Board Rules), and obviously you will have a lot of positive comments, and a few negative ones (on the product).

 

My previous comment was about the "introduction" by member mimarsinan, swiftly followed by your nice contributions and "closing" by devadev recommendation:

http://forum.tabletp...html#post409085

 

and at the same time:

http://forum.tabletp...html#post409087

 

 

I like it when coincidences happen. :)

 

Now I am perfectly sure that all of you are in perfect good faith :), and you can really see nothing "queer" in it  but surely - given that mimarsinan is actually the Author of the comprexx and installaware thingies and that has connections with you, the "I have found ... " incipit, does sound "inappropriate" to me.

 

The normal convention is to provide "full disclosure" exactly to avoid the impression (or suspect) of being making a "plug" or doing some "astroturfing":

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Astroturfing

 

Example:

http://www.forensicf...wtopic/t=11008/

 

:duff:

Wonko



#15 milindsmart

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 05:59 PM

Simon, the thing that goes against you here, is that it's *Wikipedia*. To the extent that there are ads/plugs/promos of other companies' software on Wiki in similar positions, they are wrong, and I'd be happy to log on to my little used account and clean it up. The broadly shared vision, as well as stated purpose of Wiki, is to have the ultimate encyclopaedic content. ZipMagic is NOT directly related to the Surface Pro... It is related to the criticism of the space constraints in the surface pro. It merits a proportional mention...

 

To elaborate on how the relation is indirect : surface pro -> hardware specs -> criticism -> space constraints -> solutions -> zipmagic.

 

Hence I think a mention that will pass any mod's scrutiny is : "There has been criticism against the small storage provided (<64GB), out of which Windows itself occupies significant space. There are however, a few tools that recover a major portion of the space occupied, for example ZipMagic"



#16 simonking

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 10:14 PM

That is a very kind offer, thank you very much. Let me know how it goes :)



#17 milindsmart

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 02:01 PM

Can you point out a few examples of hypocritical moderation w.r.t advertising to get me started?



#18 simonking

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 02:17 PM

I believe any product article such as the Surface itself would count as an example.

 

I am going to try again in a week with a changed website URL (since they blocked my main one) and revised text per Eric's suggestions.

 

If that doesn't work, again, that'd be yet another example.



#19 Tripredacus

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 02:57 PM

Good luck on your quest. Wikipedia used to have multiple entries for various Digital Signage companies, some well designed and maintained. They are all gone. Relevent:

http://en.wikipedia....e#Advertisement



#20 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 03:00 PM

Hmmm.  :dubbio:

 

@Simon

 

You should check your next contributions to Wikipedia against these criteria (just in case):

 

http://en.wikipedia....a:Verifiability

http://en.wikipedia....pendent_sources

http://en.wikipedia....d-party_sources

http://en.wikipedia....eliable_sources

http://en.wikipedia....l_point_of_view

 

:duff:

Wonko



#21 simonking

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Posted 09 September 2014 - 08:04 PM

If they want to be consistent, they should just nuke all product information from their site, then :D



#22 simonking

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 05:31 PM

It warms my heart to see the appreciation and support for ZIPmagic here:

 

http://forum.tabletp...04/#post-413118

 

(Background: tabletpcreview have also started censoring ZIPmagic.)

 

Mikerman summarizes my feelings on the matter exactly with the following verbiage: At the very least, an avenue within the board for information and discussion like this would be beneficial, it seems to me, rather than relegating helpful information and products such as this to Internet obscurity. Isn't one of the purposes of this board to allow such useful discussion? Again, IM own HO.

 

And Wonko, I would hope that you no longer attempt to hijack, in your own words, any of my threads, with your out-of-context accusations and finger pointing on things as empty as product names. If you one day dare to touch ZIPmagic with or without a stick, you may find that I work in the best interests of the end-user and work tirelessly to improve the product, its stability, reliability, ease of use, etc. as publicly documented at the tabletpcreview forums - I have fixed absolutely all bugs reported by end-users, and continue to do so as reports come in, from my own use or others. Even WIMLIB has seen multiple bug fixes and enhancements as a result of ZIPmagic's exposure.



#23 simonking

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:25 PM

Wow, they have even censored Mikerman's post now!

 

This is getting absolutely disgusting. I did take a PDF printout of the post page before they locked the thread, and scrubbed my latest reply, as well as Mikerman's latest reply.

 

I've opened a new thread about this at my own forum:

 

http://www.zipmagic....ic.php?f=4&t=57

 

I do appreciate any and all support anyone can provide to fight the growing censorship against ZIPmagic. Some people are very scared, clearly.

 

I believe this merits a press release. At the very least. I'll have to write one up.

 

If anyone has other ideas on how to fight this censorship, I'd appreciate it very much.



#24 simonking

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:36 PM

All of you who may feel so inclined to help, please vote below to get the story on the Slashdot home page:

 

http://slashdot.org/...erging-products



#25 milindsmart

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 03:16 AM

The tabletpcreview forum thread is word-for-word identical to the web page as I saw just now. I cannot see any censorship.




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