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PE for blind people


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#26 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 09:48 AM

OT digression inside the spoiler.
Please ignore.

Spoiler

:duff:
Wonko

#27 pscEx

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

Pre-scan (as part of the "main" accessibility-enabled-project) all the "checked for inclusion .scripts" and *somehow* create on-the-fly a .ini file with all the files required, whenever such a "choose file" or "choose folder" is present in the .script interface.

I added the AccessibilityIni.Script which can be found in the GUI project tree as Tools > AccessibilityIni.
It uses a modified version of the good old myOptions application.
accessibility.gif
On click on "Create" myOptions scans all scripts having the Accessibility=True definition in the [Main] section and writes the needed information into %ProjectDir%\Accessibility.txt
This looks like:
Spoiler

The user can modify Accessibility.txt and then click "Save" to update the scripts with the modified contents.
At the end of Accessibility.exe you can define the SourceDir.

I added the Accessibility=True filter, because without the filter there would be a mass of files in Accessibility.txt, and most of them have standard definitions without the need of modifying by the user. Searching a certain file in Accessibility.txt would be difficult for the blind user.

When the user wants to include a new script in the list, he just has to write the flag into [Main]

There is a way provided to fill file boxes for individual scripts.
Some scripts, especially myNVDA, have now in the very bottom

A key "Create"
A check box "Automatically save changes on exiting the text editor"

"Create" builds Accessibilty.txt and opens it in the standard text editor.
BTW: Do not forget to save changes in the editor before exiting.
When the check box is checked, changes are automatically applied after leaving the editor.

Peter

#28 pscEx

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 10:08 AM

A new version of the multiPE project is available for download.

 

It realises the content of this topic.

 

Peter :)



#29 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

Dear Peter,

I Am ddeply appreciating Yours work for blind users like I Am.

Very, very well done.

 

But i would like to tell You that You are triing to solve somethink by very complex way and i do not think that it is necessary.

MultiPE from 1.6.2014 did not displaied notepad to confirm The NVDA path.

The very big issue is the think, that somebody may be that also You are triing to import drivers from host installed system.

If You would disable hostdriver.exe and PE would only use USB audio driver, it would be much more easier.

 

Why do You try to import drivers from offline host operating system so much?

Hostdriver is The problem, not The unsigned drivers.

 

Hostdriver display The dialog window so user must choose The driver.

Win 8 and WIn7 PE project have not been depend on hostdriver, scripts contained build in drivers, for example, for Realtech high definition audio and USB audio support.

So if internal chip have not been detected, Microsoft Windows sound mapper have used USB audio device or internal Realtec high definition audio compatible chip.

 

I know, that You think it well, but really, hostdriver is The problem.

And because Hostdriver start nvda.exe, Multipe is very probably depend on it.

I know, that The sinchronization of The time, when sound work is not easy.

Every computer work by other speed.

The task is to find other way than hhostdriver to run NVDA.

Windows sound service is executed from the netstart.cmd script if XP source have been selected.

What do You think about my opinion?



#30 pscEx

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:50 PM

Thanks for your comments, Janusz!

 

You mentioned hostdriver alreaydy some time ago.

 

And following your suggestion in multiPE version 75 NVDA is started independent from hostdriver by the multiPE central boot loader easyDriveLetter:

 

 

Peter



#31 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

Dear Peter,

I Am very sorry, but i must inform You about bug inside Yours Multipe75 project.

When I have chosen Windows Xp as source and if i try to run The project.

Resulted .iso image have only little above 80 MB.

But to be correct, i will try to choose Windows 7 as a installation source.

I must find Windows 7 SP0 direct download link.

And something about sound drivers.

It is fact, that many notebooks contain sound chips ATI high definition audio. Those chips are really compatible with ATI integrated drivers which are The part of many Winbuilder based scripts for Windows 7 and 8.

We do not have The chance to find or even develop universal sound driver, it is computer utopia. But if we will incorporate driver usbaudio.sys and ATI drivers, we have The chance to support many notebooks.

USB audio sound chips are cheap and i think, that thanks to Yours project, blind users will be able to repair many software problems.

 

I have repaired a notebook software problem thanks to Windows PE of my friend.

Icould backup partition.

The very accessible backup software for blind us raw copy.

This little C++ program is able to raw copy data.

Partition guru and AOMEI Partition Assistant Standard Edition is also very usable.

I like The possibility to choose partition type while working with AOME Partition assistant.

So when i use partition copy wizard, i can choose to copy partition from logical to target disk and i can specify, that The target partition will be primary, even while copying from logical source partition.

There are not many free and accessible partition managers, if blind user do not love command line and diskpart, but dkskpart can not be used for copying wholedisks by raw copy, ETC.Some partitioners are based on QT dlls, so it is not possible to read The names of partitions, and this is not very pleasant in this kind of programs.

Some tools are based even on GTK C++ libraries, but there is no special complex bridge between GTK and MSAA.

IN many cases, those special bridges are causing application stability problems.

Best tools for blind users are tools written by using standard Windows controls writeen in C++ or in Borland Delphi, but not all Delphi units are producing accessible GUIS.

I think, that very big potential is runscanner.

There are so many command line switches, not all documented.

Thanks to this program, user is able to use programs to access WIndows offline installations. I had to accept The fact, that i will never be able to run WIndows XP system restore offline without buy expensive tools.

So Peter, thank You very much.

Here is direct download link with log.

 

https://dl.dropboxus...867972/log.html

May be, that I have made something wrong.



#32 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 08:47 PM

Dear Peter,

Unfortunately, even when i have chosen Windows 7 SP0 installation source and i have worked according to Yours instructions, resulted project do not contain NVDA and sound support.

 

The log when Windows 7 source have been selected as source is here.

 

https://dl.dropboxus...7972/logW7.html

 

Would You look at this please?

 

What about building NVDA directly to The script to avoid issues related to path and project track changes ETC.

NVDA 2013.1 is good and stable and would be used as a screen reader for long time.

Thank You for Yours future repair if it would be possible.

I know, that YOu do YOurs best to make reliable project and YOu have even create this amazing discussion topic.

 

And because we are debugging and developing to gether, i Am very patient and i hope, that our work will bring wanted results.

With kindness regards.

Janusz Chmiel



#33 pscEx

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:22 AM

Thanks for the log.

 

It is a synchronisation issue. I'm working on solving.

 

I think that I'll upload version 76 soon.

 

Peter



#34 pscEx

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:31 AM

Before official upload the current mutiPE 76 is available at http://multipe.exec-.../multiPE_76.zip

Peter

#35 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 11:28 AM

Dear Peter,

I have tried The MULTIPE76 yesterday. It was The version without script which recall notepad and user checking The path inside .txt file.

I have god amazing results.

XP with USB audio support finally work for me even when harddisk is empty or contain Linux OS instead of Windows, so driver is build inside The project, no host OS is needed at all and this is what i have ever wanted.

Multi PE WIn7 worked. But i have also tried older MULTIPE project from may this year and WIn 7 and USB audio have been automatically detected.

Yours attempt to use arrow keys to choose The audio device is good, because i host driver find more sound drivers, user can confirm.

But if i would be The MULTIPE developer, i would rather make approach without hostdriver, USB audio driver would be supported and later, if YOu would have some time to make .exe program to copy .drivers from running system which would generate The Winbuilder script with this driver, this would be ideal solution.

Because WIn7 PE project based on Chrisers techniques supported ATI high definition audio, so many chips from Real tec were supported out of The box. And Usbaudio driver have been presentedas a second possible sound device.

Hostdriver is perfect, but only when blind user run it with active screen reader from The desktop.

Projects without hostdriver.exe can start USB audio or ATI high definition audio automatically, it is not necessary to press arrow keys to choose The right device.

So user have two possibilities.

1. Buy USB sound cart or USB headset

2. Use desktop or notebook, which support driver from ATI.

Such as Toshiba Satellite, Acer travelmate and many others.

Host driver can be used later, if user want to install some other device drivers from offline host.

 

So i do not have problems with hostdriver, it is really perfect and even free tool, I have used it for many times successfully to add support for other sound or even other devices when NVDA have spoken in live system.

 

I also understand, that You think every think very, very well with blind users. Please do not think about me, that  i do not appreciate YOurs complex work.

I have project, which support WIn 7 and XP without issues.

As a compromise, i suggest You, if You would add button, which would enable users to choose, if they want to have hostdriver.exe started automatically or no.

If it is possible, if hostdriver.exe do not make somethink magic to enable sound support at all, so it is necessary to start it.

 

I will try Yours official upload for blind today, ihave many of YOurs projects from this three months as a backup to find The best alternative for future use.

 

I will also try Yours .exe to make script file with driver for sound cart for XP, it is amazing idea, but i have received crasch of Windows when triing to use it.

May be, that .inf file for sound cart is not standard so program crasches for any reasons.

Thank You for yours time and patience.



#36 pscEx

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 12:13 PM

...

 if YOu would have some time to make .exe program to copy .drivers from running system which would generate The Winbuilder script with this driver, this would be ideal solution.

 

...

if You would add button, which would enable users to choose, if they want to have hostdriver.exe started automatically or no.

If it is possible, if hostdriver.exe do not make somethink magic to enable sound support at all, so it is necessary to start it.

 

To number one: There already exists a tool LocalDriver which creates a script by catching the host's driver.

 

To number two: A good suggestion. I'll implement.

 

Generally: Many thanks for yout tests and suggestions.

 

Peter



#37 pscEx

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 01:13 PM

Depending on my age, I seem to become forgetful.

 

Number two is already implemented.

 

In the hostAud, hostNIC and hostVID scripts there are checkboxes AUTOSTART.

 

When you uncheck them, hostDriver has to be started manually, when wanted.

 

I will change the shortcuts to be all in Startmenu System.

 

Peter



#38 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 06:55 PM

Dear Peter,

I Am very sorry, but i can not get latest official project to support sound at all.

It is very strange issue, even VIrtual box driver not work.

I did not uncheck hostaud driver checkbox, i let everythink on The default values.

I will try to remove Yours approach with automatic sound point switching.

But we are very near to The smallest possible MUltipe Project for blind users. Patience is our biggest capital.

But Pe normally boot, i can read desktop icons by NVDA OCR feature.

So no hydden severe error.

 

 

I have downloaded from

 

http://multipe.exec-...tiPE_latest.zip

ANd i use Nvda 2011.3.

I will experiment with sound point auto switching tomorrow, i will try to remove the script.

How complex would be for You to add NVDA link to The desktop, so CTRL+ALT+n would be used.

You would use Windows Explorer link properties to add this hod key.

Because i Am afraid, that we do not have chance to sinchronize sound service.

I have firstly thought, that i do some bug that i have tried to disable all host related .exe modules by using checkboxes inside Winbuilder.

But it was not because of this.



#39 pscEx

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:00 PM

I do not understand the troubles.

Before upload I expanded the whole version 76 package into an empy directory, and it worked well.

 

I'll re-upload. perhaps something is brokem in the uploaded file.

 

Do not waste time with removing something from the project. The project "As Is" should work well and run into VirtualBox

 

Peter



#40 pscEx

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:29 PM

I did a test:

 

I downloaded multiPE 076 from the download center and expanded into the empty directory C:\scratch\multipe

Started C:\scratch\multipe\winbuilder.exe, and followed EXACTLY the desription in post #2.

 

My entries are local paths, would propably be different for you:

SourceDir="Q:\CDs Standard\W7_32_DE_ENT_SP1" Attention: Path enclosed in quotes because of space in the path

Entry1=PortableNVDA=C:\Scratch\NVDA_Port\NVDA2013.3

 

Started the build, restarted, etc. as requested. Successful result: Run into VirtualBox with working NVDA

 

When you do the same and do not have success, we have to find the difference between our systems, an I have to do some changes which respect the differences.

 

Peter



#41 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:12 PM

Dear Peter,

I Am very sorry. But it can not work for me.

Here is log file.

 

https://dl.dropboxus...867972/log.html

I have tested it on virtual box and on real computer.

May be, that log file will tell us more.

It is really interesting but believe me, that I do not do it to make You sad.

Thank You very very much for Yours patience.



#42 pscEx

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 06:58 AM

There are two differences between your and my configuration:

 

First: You appearently defined a physical CD drive as source. I did the same and it worked with me:

 

Second: Your host is Win7 x64, mine is XP x86. I'm going to check

 

Peter



#43 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:17 AM

Dear Peter,

Do You really thinka as A experienced developer, as A author of MULTIPE, that it is The issue if i will use IMDISK virtual disk driver to mount .iso image with Windows installation instad of extracting .iso to separate folder?

BUt I know, We are thinking together.

So i will try to extract Windows 7 SP0 installation .iso image to separate folder firstly.

I can also run Winbuilder and this project from X86 version of XP.

I will try this and I will let You know The results.

Thank You again for YOurs patience.



#44 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:53 AM

Dear Peter,

I have some news for You.

Latest project work for me perfectly if I select Windows XP as installation source.

Previous projects supported Windows 7, so i will use this newest for running live system based on XP and Yours project from end of May to launch Windows 7 live project.

Thank You for Yours time and help.

XP is supported, Win7 works well and I think, that there is some hydden issue.

I will test YOurs SATA added supported for Xp based project during this afternoon.

It is really not because i run Windows 7 X64, because older project supported USB audio in Windows 7 well.

But Yours idea to use fast automatic sound devices auto switch is excellent. So thank You for Yours complex programmers work, for Yours patience, concentration.



#45 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:57 AM

Dear Peter,

Would You try to repair Yours scripts so mountstorpe.exe will be addded to The X:\i386\system32 when Windows XP have been selected as The installation source?

Mountstorpe is very important .exe program, without it new USB flash drives and SB harddisks are not automatically detected by Windows Explorer. Thank You very much.



#46 pscEx

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

I'll tell the project to include it automatically when Screen Reader Support is installed.

 

For now you can add it manually by selecting multiPE > Apps > System > MountStorePE

 

Peter



#47 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:53 PM

Dear Peter,

Very very good job.

Project is working perfectly.

Sound support is enabled and i can even turn off host aud and other host .exe tools.

 

I have only one big plea to You.

 

How complex would be for You to give user possibility to include all available SATA drivers from driverpacks archive to Yours project? If it would be a choice when XP source is selected.

I know, that You ave included many SATA drivers, but sata chip which is The part of Toshiba satellite L650 D notebook model is not supported by none of included sata driver, which are The part of Yours sata driver script.

I know, that The best would be to use project based on Windows 7, which support many SATA chips. BUt XP is so fast and memory allocation is so small.

What do You think about it?

 

Here are some information about SATA chip.

 

PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4391&SUBSYS_FF1E1179&REV_00
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4391&SUBSYS_FF1E1179
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4391&CC_010601
PCI\VEN_1002&DEV_4391&CC_0106
 

Do You think, that You would find latest XP driver for it and that You would make a script to incorporate to The resulted live image based on XP installation source?

Thank You very much dear Peter.



#48 JanuszChmiel

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 06:47 PM

Dear Peter,

I would like to discuss with You about new live project development.

The aim of this project will be to make bootable live .iso image, which would be based strictly only on WAIK or on Windows assessment and development kit.

 

What would this project enable to blind users?

1. use Pstart.exe to run NVDA but preconfigured to work with Brltty for Windows.

Winbuilder script would enable blind user to choose between Brltty or .sys driver for supporting USB external speech synthesizers.

For now, lets start with Brltty for Windows.

My goal is to make live platform, which would be used by blind administrators who own Braille devices.

In some cases, it is more practice to have tactile feetback than audio feetback.

And because Brltty for Windows support so many Braille displays, we can help many blind users from Europe.

 

Project would use Pstart to launch NVDA, Brltty is Windows service and must be started by using command to launch services for Windows.

 

Because Braille device is expensive and it is not possible to simply borrow it, i will debug with You by using VIrtual machine to fetch error messages if it will happen.

To work effectively, it is necessary to register .inf and .sys X86 drivers to work like a driver, not as a filter.

Filter drive mode is used if blind user have original Braille device driver and driver mode is used, if user do not own original Braille device driver.

 

WIn32 lib uSB driver is The part of Brltty for Windows installation.

May be, that Nvda can be start from .cmd script not from Pstart, but our biggest issue will be how to incorporate Visual C++ libraries support if project is only based on Waik source for example.

 

So Brltty for Windows installation package direct download link is:

 

http://mielke.cc/brl...y-win-4.5-1.exe

 

 

Winbuilder will work by finding WAIK from The default WAIk installation folder, so user can not change The WAIK target location.

 

The biggest issue will be to find out, how Brltty for Windows installer register driver as a driver to get it installed in live environment.

 

The Explorer file manager would be used as a replacement for WIndows Explorer.exe

 

https://explorerplus... _1.3.5_x86.zip

 

Because Winbuilder scripts are complex, You can use autohodkey or .cmd script if You want to use it.

The resulted project would allocate very less RAM.

And may be, that we will be able to incorporate Visual C++ support libraries.

 

Thank You very much for Yours discussion.






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