30 replies to this topic

[Wonko the Sane]

Service post: Topic split from this discussion: http://reboot.pro/topic/18481-win7pe/

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Nuno , 

would you mind if I call both you and Peter "Billy-Bob" in this new, altered perception, reality?

 

I will then refer to all the "old" Win7PE projects as "Billy-Bob's PE" as well to the new one as  "Billy-Bob's PE", or BBPE OK?

http://www.huffingto...a_b_694206.html

 

Billy-Bob

Edited by Nuno Brito, 30 April 2013 - 12:18 PM.
Added header explaining the origin of this topic

[MedEvil]

I'm with Wonko Billy-Bob on this one.

I could say more, but it wouldn't sound as nice as what Billy-Bob already said.

Billy-Bob

[Brito]

Heck, y'all might as well just call'em "win7pe" like us folks back on the south like to see it called.

Trolling high today?

[Wonko the Sane]

I'm with Wonko Billy-Bob on this one.

I could say more, but it wouldn't sound as nice as what Billy-Bob already said.

Billy-Bob

Thank you Billy-Bob for confirming the foolishness of Billy-Bob and Billy-Bob. 

It's good to see that I am not the only Billy-Bob with this opinion.

 

Billy-Bob

[MedEvil]

Of course not Billy-Bob.

The new naming convention of Billy-Bob is to rename things that don't change like this forum for instance, while not renaming things that do change.

It's all part of Billy-Bobs evil scheme to take over the world, by confusing every Billy-Bob and Billy-Sue until their brains blow out.

Billy-Bob

[Brito]

The new naming convention of Billy-Bob is to rename things that don't change like this forum for instance, while not renaming things that do change.

 

Well, I can say you certainly don't change as years pass but the forum has certainly changed over the years. The same thing with winbuilder, I don't know why this obsession in keeping so many things unchangeable when they are not stable nor unchangeable to start with.

 

You're probably not looking at how turbulent the changes on winbuilder have been during the initial years. In recent years the tendency was to avoid any changes on the engine. Now, it is necessary to refresh these concepts and bring them up to date with more recent experience and technologies.

 

If you want to cling on to old names/products that never change and then give a brand new name for each new project that surfaces with the idea that this brings benefit to end-users, then do proceed with that approach for your works and we'll see which approach makes users understand what you are making available. 

 

The concept, spirit and purpose of Winbuilder don't change. Win7PE describes exactly what it does and what users get as a result.

 

 

Go complain at the car manufacturers. Some of them release a new Audi A3 or a new VW Golf every year or so. 

 

Go ask them if the engine from a car that these guys released back in the eighties is still compatible with the engines of the cars with the same name that are released nowadays.

 

 

Maybe these are all Bobs, but they belong to different generations and one of these days we (old guys) need to either live with these kids or just go back and play word-scramble on reboot.

 

[MedEvil]

Now, it is necessary to refresh these concepts and bring them up to date with more recent experience and technologies.

Java wasn't a new technology even back in 2006 when Winbuilder started out.

Win7PE describes exactly what it does and what users get as a result.

No it does not.
I have about a dozend different "Win7PE", they are the same only by the fact, that they are a PE and were build from a Win7 source.
The resulting "Win7PE" are miles apart and not recognizing this by not giving them different names is stupid, no matter how you try to spin it.

Go complain at the car manufacturers. Some of them release a new Audi A3 or a new VW Golf every year or so.

I did complain for years about their cars getting uglier and uglier, with each new generation less reliable.
Especialy the envogue tank look is terrible!
But just like you, they're stubborn bastards and go ahead anyway.

So i stoped complaining and stoped buying and happily drive my Oldtimers.

[Brito]

I did complain for years about their cars getting uglier and uglier, with each new generation less reliable.

 

 

 

Java wasn't a new technology even back in 2006 when Winbuilder started out.

 

You should take into account the other part of my sentence on that quote: "experience". After 2006 we saw Delphi Pascal vanishing completely from the masses as a programming platform. This makes it very difficult to add expansions and get access to recent libraries/development conditions.

 

A choice had to be made in regards to a new platform, out of them all I fancy Java best.

 

Like or hate it, the new builder runs with the same compiled binary on Linux, Windows and MacOS with the possibility of expansion to Android in the future where Java is a first class citizen. If you don't want to install Java on your machine, heck it is even possible to compile this project to .NET (mono compiler) or native Windows binary with GCJ (haven't tested this GCJ option myself): http://paranoid-engi...-to-native.html

 

Here exist no worries about x86, x64, x128, ARM or whatever mainstream CPU architecture/OS is available today or within many years.

 

I'm happy with it, be nice..

[Tripredacus]

This is some strange case of synchronicity which reminds me of another situation of the "same name" AND also concerns both names being "billybob."

 

On another forum I am on, there was a user named Billybob. It was found out that he would routinely buy things from people and resell them to other people. This is normally frowned upon as collector communities typically dislike those who are in the community for business reasons. To make matters worse, Billybob then let it slip out he would buy things, then put them on ebay before having the item in his possession. Then he then resorted to having the person he bought the item from keep the item at their house before selling it! Well its all sort of shadiness and some troll/flame war errupted.

 

Poor Billybob said some things he shouldn't have and got banned. Nearly 2 days later, his "wife" apparently registered on the forum and posted a thread on his behalf. It was never determined if it was really Billybob's wife or him...

 

Now we can discuss naming methods of creating user accounts. Some people try to be unique, some people try to be lazy. Well it was merely a coincidence that the forum had another user (the lazy type that adds numbers to a name if it is taken) named Billybob, who once was revealed, many people thought he was the original one and made his forum life miserable for a couple days.

 

Moral of the story: come up with your own name!

 

Spoiler

I am not in some exclusive club, apparently on some sites people want to be me too.

[Wonko the Sane]

It's all part of Billy-Bobs evil scheme to take over the world, by confusing every Billy-Bob and Billy-Sue until their brains blow out.

Billy-Bob

Of course there are NO Billy-Sues , ONLY Billy-Bobs and Billie-Bobs (which are pronounced exactly the same in order to INCREASE possible confusion).
http://www.huffingto...a_b_694206.html
 

.... where every single inhabitant is named Billy-Bob - even the women. The women's names, however, are spelled "Billie-Bob."

 
 
 
@Billy-Bob
Please understand that unlike Billy-Bob, I have nothing against the new Billy-Bob builder, nor against the new Billy-Bob project, I am only forecasting the amount of confusion that naming the new Billy-Bob like the old Billy-Bob is likely to produce in the new, poor, innocent Billy-Bobs (and also in the old-time Billy-Bobs).
JFYI:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/name
 

 
name (nm)
n.
1. A word or words by which an entity is designated and distinguished from others.

Billy-Bob

[carloscape]

How about the Billy-Bob 2013 Edition? To distinguish this Billy-Bob from the other Billy-Bob's around.

[pscEx]

 

Peter

[Brito]

Can we please end this Billy-Bobness?

 

Would be good if we could Billy-Bob back to action.

 

For the sake of Bob, please behave like grown-up Billies.

 

Thanks.

[pscEx]

One of the forum's rules says something like "have fun".

 

I really did have fun with this discussion. But unlike other members having time to perform 'endless' discussions, I want to concentrate on technical work with functional enhancements. So, I'm going to continue adding plugins to the Win7PE project.

 

@Billy-Bob: Can you offer a download URL inside the WinBuilder world for a project / script / tutorial / ?? with the same title?

Similar titles are not asked!

 

Peter

[Wonko the Sane]

Can we please end this Billy-Bobness?

Hi Billy-Bob,
if you prefer we can migrate to Fronkesteen-Eyegor:
http://www.imdb.com/...?item=qt0484647

No issue whatever : by now all interested Billy-Bobs will know the issues they will face when a new Billy-Bob will post asking for help, after all it's only a matter of two added questions:

• Which EXACT Billy-Bob builder did you use?
• Which EXACT Billy-Bob project did you use?

 
What will be tougher for everyone will be finding information relevant to the new builder and new project by searching (on the board or through Google and similar)
 
You know , IF there hadn't been so recently the worldwide issue with GRUB (GRUB legacy ) and GRUB (GRUB2 ) (leaving alone the confusion that grub4dos creates by having a grub> prompt )  I would have considered the originator of this mis-naming as being simply superficial or falling for a simple mistake.
 
But thanks to the well known precedent and to the obstinacy with which this senseless mis-naming is defended/insisted upon, I cannot but conclude that it was done on purpose.
 
Now the tricky part is if the purpose was to harass half the internet or to commit seppuku.
 
(not that it matters in the least, something foolish was done, I pointed out the relevance of it's foolishness, I kept up to the standards I myself set for my self-appointed role of Wonko Weenko, everyone is - hopefully - happy) 


Weenko (the Seine)

[dog]

Seems to me that there's no point targetting other platforms, when it needs windows media to build win pe.

I'd go for c++

Billy Bob

[pscEx]

Wrong!

What when you are working on a ???X, mac or android host and want to create a PE3?

 

Peter

[Wonko the Sane]

Wrong!

Billy-Bob, sometimes I think at the succesful career you could have had in diplomacy and you missed by becoming a programmer....

 

What when you are working on a ???X, mac or android host and want to create a PE3?

I am sure that it will additionally soon become download #2 from the Apple Store after Angry Birds, the amount of Billy-Bobs wanting to buiild a PE3 on their iPad is undoubtedly impressive.

 

And surely it will replace Ruzzle on most android based tablets/smartphones.

 

Just imagine the sheer fun of  building Billy-Bob's Projects in competition and having the possibility to chat between the three rounds...

 

Weenko (the Seine)

[paraglider]

In general people that live in the unix world are there because they are not interested in windows. It thus seems likely that the number of such people that would want to build a windows based pe is rather small compared to the number of people running windows computers that want to build a windows based pe. I see no problems in writing a new builder engine in Java or any other language. That does not preclude such a builder supporting the current scripting language. Evolution is always better than revolution. MS ignored that when they created windows 8. Many companies around the world are suffering downturns in revenue because of that decision.

[Brito]

The goal is not just running on unix machines. The goal is also to ensure that we run well on future Windows releases. Remember how the introduction of the UAC in Vista complicated access to registry and other functions? Right now we are independent from Windows to build a Windows PE, just that.

If someone wants to build a Windows PE from a Linux server or MacOS, it is possible and not something fancy.

As for the criticism about building a Windows PE from a tablet, you'd be surprised but Android already replaces much of what people normally do with PC laptops. If winbuilder runs on android as well, so much the better.

As for changing to a different scripting language, it would be possible to add support for the old scripting language but focus will be given to other parts that need more attention. If someone wants to volunteer and help, great.

[paraglider]

However the problem with reverse engineering of undocumented or partly documented windows features like wim files or the registry is that you are chasing a moving target. MS continuously evolves or changes the internal workings of such features.

 

UAC has always been a minor annoyance for most people since win 7. They either turn it off or live with it. Me I live with it at its default setting in win7 or win 8. Its never caused a problem with winbuilder for me.

 

As you well know porting the existing winbuilder to a new language or even a different version of the same language is a long project. if it wasn't it would already have been done. Main problem is its written in a language that has long fallen out of favor - pascal is really a dead language.

[Brito]

However the problem with reverse engineering of undocumented or partly documented windows features like wim files or the registry is that you are chasing a moving target. 

 

Winbuilder will never be perfect in handling closed-formats, however, it is independent from whatever changes on the host platform and gets work done faster than anything else that ever existed on this field. I couldn't care less about perfection or changes, I care about ensuring that end-users repeat good results back home on their own machines. Removing the host platform as source of interference/annoyance is major factor to achieve this goal.

 

Now exists only a relationship between winbuilder and the source used for the bootdisk.

[Wonko the Sane]

@Billy-Bob (and @Billy-Bob and @Billy-Bob)

 

But still the issue originating this thread has nothing to do with the choice of the programming language (java is as good as anything else, after all, and with no offence intended, winbuilder is nothing but a .script interpreter).

If portability is an objective, Java is a good choice.

 

Still naming the new builder like the old one and much worse than that a completely new project with the old name of an existing project, already criticized (the name) for being coincident with the  "generic" term used to call the "result" remains - besides not smart - an unneeded cause of confusion.

 

This thread is about that IMHO senseless decision and ONLY about that and not about any other decision (including the programming language choice) the Authors and Developers may have taken, no matter how right or wrong they are.

 

If you have comments, ideas and what not on the choice of Java, instead of hijacking this thread it would be appreciated that you start a new, dedicated one.

 

Weenko (the Seine)

[Brito]

If you have comments, ideas and what not on the choice of Java, instead of hijacking this thread it would be appreciated that you start a new, dedicated one.

 

So mean.. My apologies, back to topic then.

 

The new works represent a new generation of builder and projects. As mentioned before, this has analogy to car manufacturers adopting the same naming convention for their car models and to the cinematographic environment where it is commonly called "reboot".

 

On this case we find a peculiar sense of reboot, very much suited to the theme of this site.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

The new works represent a new generation of builder and projects. As mentioned before, this has analogy to car manufacturers adopting the same naming convention for their car models ...

Sure, and if you want to get even a trifling spare part such a windshield wiper you need to provide not only the car name/model but also the year of manufacture, more often than not the actual month of production, and nowadays also in some case the chassis number.

 

This is OK, because spare parts dealer are professionals in the field and have  (private) databases and know how to search in them (and they simply refuse to even attempt a search without the needed identifying data).

 

Having the Billi-Bob builder and (as said MUCH worse than that) a "generic name" Billy-Bob project have the same name of the previous Billy-Bob builder and Billy-Bob project as being part of *something* for which the only form of support, knowledge and "previous art" is represented by the Internet, i.e. a mindboggingly vast, already terribly indexed and accessed by a "generic tool" such as an "all purpose Search Engine" like google is form of database is ALREADY (with "unique names") particularly inefficient and challenging.

 

Even searching for knowledge on the limitedly indexed (thanks to the past senseless rename of the domain) board through google (forget about the JOKE that the in-built search represents) is daunting.

 

Having (say) a good 3/4 to 4/5 (optimistic estimation) once the Billy-Bob's WILL become "public" and hopefully "popular" (initially expect between  499/500 and 999/1000) results being relative to ANOTHER, completely unrelated, Billy-Bob can be expected.

 

This is not smart, but more than that is one of the least user friendly way to manage information.

 

Of course if the objective is to make both  the new Billy-Bob's and the old Billy-Bob's less easy to use and make related information and support/knowledge less accessible to both new and old users (and members of the board) this is a very good way. 

 

Weenko (the Seine)