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why clone ok, restore fails?


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#1 dianedebuda

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:20 AM

Have the original drive from my HP box with the preloaded Win7 Home + crapware.  It has never been booted and is MBR.  I cloned it years ago & went from there - an alternative to building restore cds.  Now wanting to "start over" using another drive. If I clone the original drive, the cloned copy will boot & all is well.  If I use Acronis WD edition to backup the orig drive, then restore to another drive, the boot fails - IIRC, with a hardware change message.  Any reason this should be happening?  Suggestions of what to look for/tools to use?  This all happened a couple of weeks ago; now I've got an Easy2boot usb built with a few tools & ready to tackle the problem again. 



#2 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

I am not understanding.
Can you detail:
 
 
I cloned it years ago & went from there - an alternative to building restore cds.
OK :)
 
 
Now wanting to "start over" using another drive. If I clone the original drive, the cloned copy will boot & all is well.
Cloning it HOW (I mean with which program/tool/apporach)? WHERE does it work (I presume same hardware, right?)
 
 
  
If I use Acronis WD edition to backup the orig drive, then restore to another drive, the boot fails - IIRC, with a hardware change message.
Well, if you are backing up and restoring, you are NOT cloning.
WHICH EXACT message do you get, and WHEN exactly? (BSOD, full GUI, Activation related, etc.)
Any reason this should be happening? Suggestions of what to look for/tools to use?
The backup copy you made is a backup copy and not a clone or a "forensic sound" or "dd-like" image.
Any dd-like or forensic like tool will do.

See here:
http://www.msfn.org/...inside-windows/
(just in order to disambiguate between clone and non-clone)

:cheers:
Wonko

#3 dianedebuda

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:54 AM

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I am using the same Acronis WD software in both the clone (using CLONE option) and the backup/restore situations. Using another computer to clone/backup/restore the drives.  Yes, the cloned drive works on the same computer that fails with the restored drive.  Don't remember exactly what the message was - something like "there's been a hardware change and Windows cannot load" - but it was almost immediately after POST.  Just trying to get a handle on differences between clone and backup/restore that might explain a boot failure so I'll know what to look for when I dive into it again today.


Edited by dianedebuda, 09 March 2013 - 12:17 PM.


#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I am using the same Acronis WD software in both the clone (CLONE option) and backup/restore situations.  Yes, all of this is to the same machine.

Well, read the given thread, seemingly:

  1. If you choose to clone you get a clone.
  2. If you choose to backup you get a backup.

Pretty much "linear" I might say.

 

I will try again :whistling::

 

 

WHICH EXACT message do you get, and WHEN exactly? (BSOD, full GUI, Activation related, etc.)

 

(knowing what happens may help in finding which part(s) are missing in the backup)

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#5 dianedebuda

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:36 PM

Wonko, apparently I was editing while you answered.  Sorry to be vague about the failure message, but it happened a couple of weeks ago & I've been working on my new UEFI machine in the meantime.  I'm concerned there just might a basic difference between the clone image and the restored image that just might not be "fixable" boot-wise.  On the other hand, I'm looking for pointers on exactly what info to post so I can list what's needed (and not waste your time - like I've done already :(  ) 



#6 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 01:59 PM

Yes, but I gave you a (good by definition since I wrote it ;)) basic reference:

http://www.msfn.org/...58#entry1007158

and here are links to some of the "gory details":

http://www.msfn.org/...ost__p__1008963

in a nutshell:

  1. A clone (or dd-like or "forensic sound" image) will contain EVERYTHING needed
  2. An image may be a clone (see above) or may be missing a number of needed items
  3. A backup UNDOUBTEDLY will miss a number of needed items

If you prefer, you need to "add" (using other tools) "nothing to #1", "something to #2" and "a lot of things to #3", a generic list of things that might prevent a restored backup to represent a clone is present in the mentioned thread/posts, I cannot be more precise unless I have more details from you.

 

The generic reference to what kind of details to post is the "standard litany" :whistling::

http://homepage.ntlw...ard-litany.html

 

Just as an example (which is NOT necessarily connected to the issue at hand) quite a few HP and namely some of those that have an OS installed and make you create restore CD's/DVD's use a "proprietary" MBR CODE which you won't find anywhere and won't be able to restore properly unless you made a dd-like copy of that sector.

As well some computers (mostly Lenovo's and coincidentally ;) a few HP's) have a "queer" BIOS that use a 240 heads geometry instead of a 255 one, and often this will result in an unbootable system (if backed up and restored to new disk) example:

http://www.911cd.net...topic=23408&hl=

(but this again doesn't seem to me being your case) 

 

I can guess that your problem is not entirely unlike the ones referenced here:

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=22563

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=23680

http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=22984

(links already present in the given http://www.msfn.org/...63#entry1008963 )

i.e. your backup solution does not provide a copy of the Disk Signature in the MBR and this makes you get the error (but it still remains a guess :ph34r:):

http://www.911cd.net...ndpost&p=156788

 

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#7 steve6375

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 08:18 PM

Was it a drive clone (i.e. same MBR, same partition sizes, same partitions) or a partition clone (i.e. identical sized new partition created and image restored into the new partition) or was it a restore to a new partition of a different size from the original?

Did you wipe the original disk before you restored to it - or did you leave the original MBR and partitions on it?

My guess is the disk signatures are not the same between the two drives. You can read and change the disk signature using a disk editor (or RMPrepUSB - Ctrl+F5 - Ctrl+T).



#8 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:07 PM

Was it a drive clone

Please NO, not again! :frusty:

Let's try NOT to perpetuate this confusion between disk drive (or disk) and drive (the *whatever* has a drive letter assigned to it, which is in reality a partition or volume).

 

DIsk = WHOLE THING

Drive = the thing that gets a drive letter, or partition or volume

 

A drive has NOT a disk signature, a disk has it.

The tool you use is called disk editor, not drive editor.

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#9 saddlejib

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:35 PM

maybe,

http://forum.acronis.com/forum/22258



#10 steve6375

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:12 PM

Please NO, not again! :frusty:

Let's try NOT to perpetuate this confusion between disk drive (or disk) and drive (the *whatever* has a drive letter assigned to it, which is in reality a partition or volume).

 

DIsk = WHOLE THING

Drive = the thing that gets a drive letter, or partition or volume

 

A drive has NOT a disk signature, a disk has it.

The tool you use is called disk editor, not drive editor.

 

:cheers:

Wonko

 

Well that is your definition of drive, but not mine and not Seagate's either.

 

In my world, a 'drive' is a storage device, a 'disk drive' is a storage device that consists of disks, a 'flash drive' is a storage device consisting of flash memory, a 'solid state drive' is a drive consisting of solid state memory.

A volume is something that can be mounted as a filesystem and assigned a drive letter. A 'drive letter' is NOT the same thing as a 'drive'.



#11 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

A 'drive letter' is NOT the same thing as a 'drive'.

I know. :)
The issue is that say 95% of people do not :w00t: and make mistakes about this.


They read "drive" and think (and you cannot really say that it is illogical) that drive is the thing that gets a drive letter.

 

The origin is obviously the lousy way the things have been called historically (by MS) but I would guess that the few people that know about the matter should be very exact about the terminology used as to avoid further mixups

You should call MS and tell them them that Disk Management and diskpart have been named wrongly.

 

I would then call telling them that while they were right in calling something \\.\LogicalDrive, they were completely wrong when they called something else \\.\PhysicalDrive.

 

The "mixup" is already there, and cannot be anymore "solved", the only hope is to be careful in NOT inducing in the error other people, see the given referenced threads on 911CD mainly about people that thought that a reknown tool called DriveImageXML would actually image what you call "Drive".

 

:cheers:

Wonko






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