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#1 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 02:35 PM

Imdisk is not working properly, at least with Windows 7 64bit (that's what I am using, also for testing).

The drive characteristics (capacity) are returned incorrect, test it with the size of 1.2MB or 360KB.

For more infos, take a look at http://www.z80.eu/bl...ry130210-130000

 

Regards

 Peter



#2 Olof Lagerkvist

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

Imdisk is not working properly, at least with Windows 7 64bit (that's what I am using, also for testing).

The drive characteristics (capacity) are returned incorrect, test it with the size of 1.2MB or 360KB.

For more infos, take a look at http://www.z80.eu/bl...ry130210-130000

 

You have not told how you created your virtual disk. Exactly what did you enter in the Control Panel boxes? What happens if you try from command line?

 

I just tried:

imdisk -a -s 1200K -m #: -p "/T:80 /N:15 /y"

 

...on Windows XP and Windows 8 and in both cases it seems to work correctly.

 

(Moving to new topic.)



#3 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

You have not told how you created your virtual disk. Exactly what did you enter in the Control Panel boxes? What happens if you try from command line?

 

I just tried:

 

imdisk -a -s 1200K -m #: -p "/T:80 /N:15 /y"

 

 

...on Windows XP and Windows 8 and in both cases it seems to work correctly.

 

(Moving to new topic.)

See also http://www.z80.eu/im...ount_imdisk.jpg and http://www.z80.eu/im.../imdisk_cpl.jpg (in that order) for a hint how I used imdisk/created the virtual drive.

I was using an floppy disk image file (of course with the right size) always, created by the program "winimage"...

 

You should not format a new disk (in the created virtual floppy drive) by using imdisk itself, you should try to format a new floppy by using other software (like the standard format.exe from Windows 7).

 

Regards

 Peter


Edited by z80eu, 10 February 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

To translate ;), you are saying that when you re-format an image (correctly created and formatted by Winimage) mounted in Imdisk without specifying "/T:80 /N:15" the result is a smaller size formatted?

 

:cheers:
Wonko



#5 Olof Lagerkvist

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:08 PM

I see. Could you download my devioctl tool and run:

 

devioctl geometry B:

(Replace B: with your virtual floppy disk device.)

 

Please post the output here.

 

For a 1200K floppy image I get this:

 

Disk CHS geometry:
Media type    : 1
Cylinders     : 80
Tracks per cyl: 2
Sectors per tr: 15
Bytes per sect: 512
Total CHS size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)
LBA length    : 1228800 (1.172 MB)
Partition information:
Start offset  : 7680
Partition size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)
Hidden sectors: 1
Partition no  : 1
Partition type: 0x06
Boot indicator: 0
Recognized par: 0
Volume boot record values:
OEM name      : MSDOS5.0
Bytes per sect: 512
Sectors per cl: 1
Reserved sect : 1
FAT count     : 2
FAT root entr : 224
Total sectors : 2400
Media descript: 0xF9
Sectors pr FAT: 7
Sect per track: 15
Number of head: 2
Physicl drv no: 216

 

 

See if you get something else. It could be something that causes format.com to behave a little unexpected. Happens sometimes.



#6 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:17 PM

To translate ;), you are saying that when you re-format an image (correctly created and formatted by Winimage) mounted in Imdisk without specifying "/T:80 /N:15" the result is a smaller size formatted?

 

:cheers:
Wonko

 

Don't know what you're meaning with "translate" :-(

First, I mounted a correct (proper) 1.2MB floppy disk image, created by WinImage (from Gilles Vollant).

I got a response form imdisk.cpl that an 1.2MB floppy disk was mounted, size was still correct.

I was starting cmd.exe and format the "mounted" floppy image. The result can be seen here: http://www.z80.eu/im...mat12faulty.jpg

Same procedure was used to test "vfd.sys" (as described at http://www.z80.eu/blog/index.php , entry from today).

Guess what was the result - Virtual Floppy Drive didn't gave that strange result using format.exe (original command from Windows 7).



#7 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

I see. Could you download my devioctl tool and run:

 

devioctl geometry B:

(Replace B: with your virtual floppy disk device.)

 

Please post the output here.

 

For a 1200K floppy image I get this:

 

Disk CHS geometry:
Media type    : 1
Cylinders     : 80
Tracks per cyl: 2
Sectors per tr: 15
Bytes per sect: 512
Total CHS size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)
LBA length    : 1228800 (1.172 MB)
Partition information:
Start offset  : 7680
Partition size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)
Hidden sectors: 1
Partition no  : 1
Partition type: 0x06
Boot indicator: 0
Recognized par: 0
Volume boot record values:
OEM name      : MSDOS5.0
Bytes per sect: 512
Sectors per cl: 1
Reserved sect : 1
FAT count     : 2
FAT root entr : 224
Total sectors : 2400
Media descript: 0xF9
Sectors pr FAT: 7
Sect per track: 15
Number of head: 2
Physicl drv no: 216

 

 

See if you get something else. It could be something that causes format.com to behave a little unexpected. Happens sometimes.

 

Please look at http://www.z80.eu/im...d_vs_imdisk.jpg

 

It looks that even when I am selecting "floppy" in imdisk.cpl, I still get a "partition". But the correct media descriptor for a floppy is 0xF9, not 0xF8.


Edited by z80eu, 10 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#8 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

I was trying to make sure in order to replicate :).

 

Confirmed. :thumbsup:

 

Olof, I can reproduce in XP allright.

The issue is seemingly due to the different number of Root entries AND reserved sectors.

A 1,200 Kb floppy has 224 of them (and Winimage correctly uses this value) and 1 reserved sector.

The standard Windows format defaults seemingly to 512 root entries and 2 reserved sectors. (this is probably connected with the *whatever* way IMDISK uses to map/mount the image :dubbio:)

512-224=288

288*32=9,216 bytes.

9,216+512=9,728

 

Free space (formatted/created with Winimage) 1213952

Free space (formatted with format within Windows)1204224

1213952-1204224=9,728

 

About F8 and F9, things have seemingly changed.

In the good ol' days each floppy size/format had it's own "number".

Lately it seems like windows thinks that *any* floppy is F8. (or possibly this applies as well only to the above mentioned *whatever* connected to IMDISK :unsure:)

 

These might be of use:
http://reboot.pro/to...ff-topic-notes/

http://www.msfn.org/...d-their-images/

http://www.msfn.org/...post__p__988732

 

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#9 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

I was trying to make sure in order to replicate :).

 

Confirmed. :thumbsup:

 

Olof, I can reproduce in XP allright.

The issue is seemingly due to the different number of Root entries AND reserved sectors.

A 1,200 Kb floppy has 224 of them (and Winimage correctly uses this value) and 1 reserved sector.

The standard Windows format defaults seemingly to 512 root entries and 2 reserved sectors.

512-224=288

288*32=9,216 bytes.

9,216+512=9,728

 

Free space (formatted/created with Winimage) 1213952

Free space (formatted with format within Windows)1204224

1213952-1204224=9,728

 

 

:cheers:

Wonko

Wonko, it's not only related with different directory entries. It's also related (and I guess that's why it happened) with creating a partition (imdisk does this, direct or indirect giving wrong drive parameters back) instead of a "floppy".


Edited by z80eu, 10 February 2013 - 04:56 PM.


#10 Olof Lagerkvist

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

Please look at http://www.z80.eu/im...d_vs_imdisk.jpg

 

It looks that even when I am selecting "floppy" in imdisk.cpl, I still get a "partition". But the correct media descriptor for a floppy is 0xF9, not 0xF8.

 

No, it will be reported as a "floppy drive", not a "fixed disk partition", to the operating system. The reason that devioctl geometry shows "partition information" is just because ImDisk responds with emulated values to IOCTL_DISK_GET_PARTITION_INFO and IOCTL_DISK_GET_LENGTH_INFO in all cases. But that should not affect how operating system treats the drive. Windows does not even attempt to send such IOCTL requests to floppy disks at all.

 

About 0xF9 vs 0xF8, that is the media descriptor read from image data. This does not come from the virtual disk drivers, it is written there by the application that formatted the filesystem.

 

I was trying to make sure in order to replicate :).

 

Confirmed. :thumbsup:

 

Olof, I can reproduce in XP allright.

The issue is seemingly due to the different number of Root entries AND reserved sectors.

A 1,200 Kb floppy has 224 of them (and Winimage correctly uses this value) and 1 reserved sector.

The standard Windows format defaults seemingly to 512 root entries and 2 reserved sectors.

512-224=288

288*32=9,216 bytes.

9,216+512=9,728

 

Free space (formatted/created with Winimage) 1213952

Free space (formatted with format within Windows)1204224

1213952-1204224=9,728

 

Okay, some "issue" with format.com in modern Windows version then? Could there be some way to report something differently to make format.com behave in some other way here, or is another formatting tool needed?



#11 v77

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:05 PM

What I get with a Win 7:

C:\Windows\system32>imdisk -a -s 1200K -m #: -p "/T:80 /N:15 /y"
Creating device...
Created device 0: E: -> VM image
Formatting disk...
Le type du système de fichiers est RAW.
Le nouveau type de système de fichiers est FAT.
Vérification de 1,2 Mo
Initialisation de table d'allocation des fichiers (FAT) en cours...
Formatage terminé.
       1,2 Mo d'espace disque total.
       1,2 Mo sont disponibles.

          512 octets dans chaque unité d'allocation.
        2 371 unités d'allocation disponibles sur le disque.

           12 bits dans chaque entrée FAT.

Le numéro de série du volume est 1C50-26F7
Notifying applications...
Done.

I cannot reproduce the issue... :dubbio:



#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:09 PM

I have to do some tests with other drivers (I have the advantage of working on 32 bit system so I can use what I want ;)).

I do suspect that it is not "format alone" and not "imdisk alone" but a "combination of the two".

Give me some time to test and I will report.

 

OT, but not much, the format tool as it is delivered in later NT based systems is so dumb that it cannot even format properly a floppy (a real one, I mean) in some cases, Olof might remember this thread:

http://reboot.pro/to...sk-with-floppy/

and particularly post #3 where a suggestion was made....:whistling:

 

:cheers:
Wonko



#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

I cannot reproduce the issue...  :dubbio:

You are doing ANOTHER thing from the OP (and from me).

Try mounting the attached image in IMDISK and in Explorer check properties.

Jolt down the numbers.

Try using format without parameters on the mounted drive letter and in Explorer check properties..

Jolt down the numbers.

Compare the two notes.

 

:cheers:

Wonko

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#14 v77

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

I tried devioctl:

Disk CHS geometry:
Media type    : 1
Cylinders     : 80
Tracks per cyl: 2
Sectors per tr: 15
Bytes per sect: 512
Total CHS size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)

LBA length    : 1228800 (1.172 MB)

Partition information:
Start offset  : 7680
Partition size: 1228800 (1.172 MB)
Hidden sectors: 1
Partition no  : 1
Partition type: 0x06
Boot indicator: 0
Recognized par: 0

Volume boot record values:
OEM name      : MSDOS5.0
Bytes per sect: 512
Sectors per cl: 1
Reserved sect : 1
FAT count     : 2
FAT root entr : 224
Total sectors : 2400
Media descript: 0xF9
Sectors pr FAT: 7
Sect per track: 15
Number of head: 2
Physicl drv no: 206

A:: L'opération a réussi.

Here, the media descriptor is 0xF9...



#15 v77

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:35 PM

You are doing ANOTHER thing from the OP (and from me).

Try mounting the attached image in IMDISK and in Explorer check properties.

Jolt down the numbers.

Try using format without parameters on the mounted drive letter and in Explorer check properties..

Jolt down the numbers.

Compare the two notes.

 

:cheers:

Wonko

Ah, yes, you are right...



#16 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:06 PM

What I get with a Win 7:
C:\Windows\system32>imdisk -a -s 1200K -m #: -p "/T:80 /N:15 /y"Creating device...Created device 0: E: -> VM imageFormatting disk...Le type du système de fichiers est RAW.Le nouveau type de système de fichiers est FAT.Vérification de 1,2 MoInitialisation de table d'allocation des fichiers (FAT) en cours...Formatage terminé.       1,2 Mo d'espace disque total.       1,2 Mo sont disponibles.          512 octets dans chaque unité d'allocation.        2 371 unités d'allocation disponibles sur le disque.           12 bits dans chaque entrée FAT.Le numéro de série du volume est 1C50-26F7Notifying applications...Done.
I cannot reproduce the issue... :dubbio:

You can't reproduce that, because you made totally different steps to create the floppy image file.
Try using imdisk.cpl, select floppy, use a correct 1.2MB floppy image for mount, then try to format the mounted image.

#17 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

No, it will be reported as a "floppy drive", not a "fixed disk partition", to the operating system. The reason that devioctl geometry shows "partition information" is just because ImDisk responds with emulated values to IOCTL_DISK_GET_PARTITION_INFO and IOCTL_DISK_GET_LENGTH_INFO in all cases. But that should not affect how operating system treats the drive. Windows does not even attempt to send such IOCTL requests to floppy disks at all.
 
About 0xF9 vs 0xF8, that is the media descriptor read from image data. This does not come from the virtual disk drivers, it is written there by the application that formatted the filesystem.
 
 
Okay, some "issue" with format.com in modern Windows version then? Could there be some way to report something differently to make format.com behave in some other way here, or is another formatting tool needed?


Olof, there is nothing wrong with format.exe (NOT format.com, it's not DOS!!!).
There is also a "starting offset" shown by your devioctl tool. I do NOT expect any offset for a floppy.
Just take a look at my screenshot ( http://www.z80.eu/im...d_vs_imdisk.jpg ) again.
You can't see any difference ???


Edited by z80eu, 10 February 2013 - 06:12 PM.


#18 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

Just take a look at my screenshot ( http://www.z80.eu/im...d_vs_imdisk.jpg ) again.

Fake (temporarily) that there is NOT such offset, imagine that it is just a glitch in the matrix and that it bears no consequences.

 

Can you see in the above image how the differences are the number of reserved sectors and the number of root entries?

THAT is the issue.

WHAT is causing it is to be found.

There is NO real offset in the image once mounted and formatted through IMDISK, the PBR is still FIRST sector of the image BUT it contains different values that limit the available size in the filesystem.

 

There is ANOTHER difference in your screenshot (that may actually carry some consequences) which is media type: your A: drive is type 1 and your I: drive is type 12 (whatever this means).

 

JFYI on 32 bit NT systems (at least up to XP) the Windows tool is called FORMAT.COM (and they are as well NOT DOS). 

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#19 v77

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

JFYI on 32 bit NT systems (at least up to XP) the Windows tool is called FORMAT.COM (and they are as well NOT DOS).

 

The same on Win 8 64 bits. Probably to keep compatibility with some batch scripts...



#20 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:13 PM

The same on Win 8 64 bits. Probably to keep compatibility with some batch scripts...

 

You're right if you just refer to the filename. It's still named format.com, but it's really an "EXE" executable ( http://en.wikipedia....S_MZ_executable ), not a command file ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COM_file ) - proof it by viewing it with a hex viewer, you can find "MZ" at the very first two bytes.... typical for .EXE files, not for .COM

 

But anyway, that's not the problem, format.com (or format.exe) works perfectly with virtual floppies made with vfd.sys ...


Edited by z80eu, 10 February 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#21 Olof Lagerkvist

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:34 PM


Olof, there is nothing wrong with format.exe (NOT format.com, it's not DOS!!!).

 

Like others have already pointed out, the file is called format.com. That is why I wrote that. It is also correct that it rather actually is a perfectly 32-bit Windows exe in reality.

 


There is also a "starting offset" shown by your devioctl tool. I do NOT expect any offset for a floppy.
Just take a look at my screenshot ( http://www.z80.eu/im...d_vs_imdisk.jpg ) again.
You can't see any difference ???

 

Again, for virtual floppy drives you should just ignore what is said under "Partition information:" in devioctl output. It has no relevance for floppies and is just ignored in reality. I have also just confirmed, by attaching a kernel debugger, that this information is not requested by format.com. (IOCTL_GET_PARTITION_INFO is not requested.)



#22 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:37 PM

@z80eu

You talked about it being format.exe (and not format.com) and (adding a number of perfectly unneeded exclamation points) you highlighted how this was not DOS.

And sure it is a .exe (as internal format, if I am allowed the pun), but it is named format.com.

 

On my system (which is 32 bit and XP) if I type on command prompt:

 

 

 

format.exe /?

 

I get an error about "format.exe is not recognized as internal or external command, operable program or batch file".

 

If I type EITHER of:

 

 

 

format /?

 

 

 

format.com /?

 

I see the help for FORMAT, so I am led to believe that the file is named format.com.

 

I will go further, stating that on my system there is no file called format.exe anywhere in PATH (and though it's still not DOS, the PATH environment variable still exists).

 

If you open an open document file (such as .docx or .xlsx) you will see that it is actually a .zip file (as internal format) but still it's filename is something.docx or somethingelse.xlsx.

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#23 z80eu

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:00 PM

@z80eu

You talked about it being format.exe (and not format.com) and (adding a number of perfectly unneeded exclamation points) you highlighted how this was not DOS.

And sure it is a .exe (as internal format, if I am allowed the pun), but it is named format.com.

 

On my system (which is 32 bit and XP) if I type on command prompt:

 

 

 

format.exe /?

 

I get an error about "format.exe is not recognized as internal or external command, operable program or batch file".

 

If I type EITHER of:

 

 

 

format /?

 

 

 

format.com /?

 

I see the help for FORMAT, so I am led to believe that the file is named format.com.

 

I will go further, stating that on my system there is no file called format.exe anywhere in PATH (and though it's still not DOS, the PATH environment variable still exists).

 

If you open an open document file (such as .docx or .xlsx) you will see that it is actually a .zip file (as internal format) but still it's filename is something.docx or somethingelse.xlsx.

 

:cheers:

Wonko

 

So this is your main problem ?

Listen, I was wrong with "format.exe", that happened because I knew it's not a real ".com" file (real .com files do only exist for DOS and can't be executed with Windows 7 64bit for sure).

But because talking about less important things is easier, it seems nobody is interested in finding a solution for a real compatibility problem of imdisk.

So I will be satisfied with 100% compatibility using vfd.sys (regardless of that driver signature problem it has), which works - as I already stated here - with the original format command without problems.

Good luck for you all anyway.



#24 Olof Lagerkvist

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

... it seems nobody is interested in finding a solution for a real compatibility problem of imdisk.

 

Well, I spent quite some time to start kernel debuggers, analyzing communication with driver when format.com was called, read a few other forums about similar problems, etc etc. So, thanks for the "nobody is interested" part. :dubbio:

 

So I will be satisfied with 100% compatibility using vfd.sys (regardless of that driver signature problem it has), which works - as I already stated here - with the original format command without problems.

 

What surprises me somewhat, is that that there is a difference between vfd and ImDisk in this case. The entire floppy logic in ImDisk comes from vfd. So, there needs to be something wrong somewhere in ImDisk, i think. The only thing I can think of is that, just like Wonko said, the reported media type is different. I don't know why it has happened to be that way, though.

 

Media types in WIndows are documented here:

http://msdn.microsof...p/aa365231.aspx

ImDisk uses 1 in this case, which from what I can see looks perfectly valid for that particular floppy type. I could try and see what happens if I change to 12.



#25 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 11:35 PM

So this is your main problem ?
Listen, I was wrong with "format.exe", that happened because I knew it's not a real ".com" file (real .com files do only exist for DOS and can't be executed with Windows 7 64bit for sure).
But because talking about less important things is easier, it seems nobody is interested in finding a solution for a real compatibility problem of imdisk.
So I will be satisfied with 100% compatibility using vfd.sys (regardless of that driver signature problem it has), which works - as I already stated here - with the original format command without problems.
Good luck for you all anyway.

Listen, I have no problems, I can format properly a floppy disk image with Excel or even with a disk editor and a pocket calculator.
You had a problem.
You found a bug :thumbsup: (we don't know yet if this bug is in IMDISK or in FORMAT.COM or - as said - in a "strange" combination of the two)

I managed to reproduce the issue and found WHAT this problem actually is. (and detailed what actually happens, with a precision up to the byte).

Your first reply to this was about my report being wrong (it is not).

Wonko, it's not only related with different directory entries. It's also related (and I guess that's why it happened) with creating a partition (imdisk does this, direct or indirect giving wrong drive parameters back) instead of a "floppy".

 
Then you introduced  UNneededly on post #17 the side issue of FORMAT.COM/:EXE by gratuitiously correcting Olof on something on which he was perfectly right.
That still remains a side issue, you insisted on it on post #20, again UNneededly.

I simply pointed out how what you posted was wrong, everything is now cool, fine and dandy :), BUT I still have to find what CAUSES the issue (and remember that I am doing it to help you solve your problem - and of course all IMDISK's users) .
 
To do that I need to carry some experiments:

 Give me some time to test and I will report.

 
I am sorry that I am not fast enough for your standards. :(
 
:cheers:
Wonko

P.S.: Should you by pure chance happen to come back again, you might find of interest the "Common Sense Advice" that you can find here:
http://reboot.pro/to...rd-rules/?p=330
mind you the Common Sense Advice is not part of the Rules, and the Rules are anyway obsolete, but this thread is a good example of why points #f. were originally written.






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