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Grub4DOS on NTFS Partition ?


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#1 posbis

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:52 PM

Hello

 

Maybe this question has been asked many times but after some twohours googling I didn't find a clea answer.

 

Q1 : Can G4D be installed on a NTFS partition ?

 

I have an external USB 3.0 disk with a single NTFS partition on it (it must be NTFS: FACT; FAT32/exFAT is out of question).

 

Q2: Is it able to boot ISO Images of the NTFS Partition same asa on FAT32 partitions?

 

I use XBOOT to prepare my USB Sticks/Drives but the XBOOT seems to be an orphaned product which is no longer developed.

Therefore I would like to use Grub4DOS directly.

 

Sorry in advance if the information I am asking is written in BIG letters somewhere but I was unable to find it.

 

Regards,

Oliver

 



#2 tinybit

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

Q1 : Can G4D be installed on a NTFS partition ?

 

A1 : Yes. It can.

 

Q2 : Is it able to boot ISO Images of the NTFS Partition same as on FAT32 partitions?

 

A2 : Yes. It is.


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#3 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Q2 : Is it able to boot ISO Images of the NTFS Partition same as on FAT32 partitions?
 
A2 : Yes. It is.

A small clarification needed.

If for any reason the booted OS needs to re-access the .iso AND it does not support NTFS natively, no.
This may happen - as an example - with some Linux .iso's that need besides the actual .iso loaded to RAM a few files "flat" on the stick or for .iso's not mapped to memory, of course if the OS inside the iso supports NTFS there are no such problems.

Do have a look at:

http://reboot.pro/to...all-iso-images/

 


As a matter of fact there is an "advanced" way out for some of these, detailed on this post by cdob:

http://reboot.pro/to...brided/?p=88531

Of course the issue (if any) is not connected to grub4dos, but rather to the OS inside the .iso.

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#4 paraglider

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:15 AM

I would say maybe not yes. I have a USB stick that on one machine will boot windows iso from g4d when formatted as fat32. Using the same isos when its formatted using NTFS as soon as I select anything from the g4d menu it hangs. On other machines the same USB stick works ok if formatted in FAT32 or NTFS.



#5 Sha0

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 04:05 AM

I would say maybe not yes. I have a USB stick that on one machine will boot windows iso from g4d when formatted as fat32. Using the same isos when its formatted using NTFS as soon as I select anything from the g4d menu it hangs. On other machines the same USB stick works ok if formatted in FAT32 or NTFS.

You could use ntfstest.exe to find out which range of sectors the .ISO occupies on the failing NTFS. It might be the case that the file is "too high" on the disk for the BIOS' INT 0x13.
 ntfssect.tar.gz   38.17K   16

#6 steve6375

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

You could also try the blocklist command from the grub4dos shell to see which sectors the ISO occupies

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#7 posbis

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:59 AM

http://www.zalman.co...ead.php?Idx=674A small clarification needed.

If for any reason the booted OS needs to re-access the .iso AND it does not support NTFS natively, no.
This may happen - as an example - with some Linux .iso's that need besides the actual .iso loaded to RAM a few files "flat" on the stick or for .iso's not mapped to memory, of course if the OS inside the iso supports NTFS there are no such problems.

Do have a look at:

http://reboot.pro/to...all-iso-images/

 


As a matter of fact there is an "advanced" way out for some of these, detailed on this post by cdob:

http://reboot.pro/to...brided/?p=88531

Of course the issue (if any) is not connected to grub4dos, but rather to the OS inside the .iso.

 

:cheers:

Wonko

 

Hi Wonko

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I mostly use ISOs that are fully loaded into memory such as Acronis TrueImage, DiskDirector, PartedMagic, ...

 

I have bought an IODD Device from Zalman (ZM-VE300 http://www.zalman.co...ead.php?Idx=674 ) which works fine

expect that some BIOS don't support USB-CDROM but do support USB-HDD. Therefore I would like to install Grub4Dos in addition, so if

USB-CDROM fails through the IODD I can still using USB-HDD and G4D to launch an ISO image.

 

BTW, Zalman has a new grat device the ZM-VE400 (http://www.zalman.co...ead.php?Idx=750)

 

Q: What is the easisest way to install the G4D into the MBR of an NTFS Partition ?

 

Regards,

Oliver



#8 steve6375

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:10 AM

Try RMPrepUSB for installing grub4dos to either MBR or PBR.



#9 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

Q: What is the easisest way to install the G4D into the MBR of an NTFS Partition ?

 

There is NO way on earth to install grub4dos grldr.mbr to the MBR of a NTFS partition.

 

The MBR is NOT part of the partition or volume, it is OUTSIDE them and part of the disk.

 

You can install grldr.mbr to the MBR (and few hidden sectors) of a disk (and with which filesystems it is actually partitioned/formatted is completely irrelevant) in several ways including using bootlace.com bootice, grubinst and the grub4dos toolbox, besides RMBREPUSB.

 

You can alternatively install a "normal" MBR code to the MBR of the disk and then install the grub4dos PBR to the PBR of the partition/volume

 

Yet alternatively - if you use a standard NT based system - change the name of the invoked loader in the standard PBR, see:

http://reboot.pro/to...-alpha-release/

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#10 posbis

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:54 AM

Try RMPrepUSB for installing grub4dos to either MBR or PBR.

 

Hi Steve

 

RMPrepUSB worked like a charm. G4D starts and ISOs are successfully booted.

 

What I like is that G4D (gldr) is very up to date (0.4.5.c 2012-11-17) in RMPrepUSB

 

Regards,

Oliver



#11 posbis

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

There is NO way on earth to install grub4dos grldr.mbr to the MBR of a NTFS partition.

 

The MBR is NOT part of the partition or volume, it is OUTSIDE them and part of the disk.

 

You can install grldr.mbr to the MBR (and few hidden sectors) of a disk (and with which filesystems it is actually partitioned/formatted is completely irrelevant) in several ways including using bootlace.com bootice, grubinst and the grub4dos toolbox, besides RMBREPUSB.

 

You can alternatively install a "normal" MBR code to the MBR of the disk and then install the grub4dos PBR to the PBR of the partition/volume

 

Yet alternatively - if you use a standard NT based system - change the name of the invoked loader in the standard PBR, see:

http://reboot.pro/to...-alpha-release/

 

:cheers:

Wonko

 

Yeah, sorry,

 

was a typo. I meant into the MBR of the disk not the partition.... :cold:

 

Regards,

Oliver



#12 steve6375

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

RMPrepUSB also includes a specially modified version of grubinst.exe which I recompiled. This makes the resulting drive bootable on a wider range of systems, so I suggest you use RMPrepUSB to install grub4dos rather than any other utility (or even the standard grubinst.exe).

cheers

Steve



#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

RMPrepUSB also includes a specially modified version of grubinst.exe which I recompiled. This makes the resulting drive bootable on a wider range of systems, so I suggest you use RMPrepUSB to install grub4dos rather than any other utility (or even the standard grubinst.exe).

but then it doesn't install the grub4dos grldr.mbr to the MBR, it installs a MODIFIED version of it. (and yes, I know I am picky ;)) and BOTH are anyway installed to the MBR and to a few hidden sectors after it (mind you this is not "bad" nor "good", it is just a matter of being accurate)

 

@posbis

Generally speaking, since what grldr.mbr does  is to pre-load a minimal grldr that finds and loads the "real" grldr, you can normally update the grldr file without changing the grldr.mbr code.

Using the partition/volume PBR to load grldr gives a "total" compatibility to *any* grldr version as all the PBR does is to load the grldr file.

:cheers:
Wonko



#14 posbis

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

RMPrepUSB also includes a specially modified version of grubinst.exe which I recompiled. This makes the resulting drive bootable on a wider range of systems, so I suggest you use RMPrepUSB to install grub4dos rather than any other utility (or even the standard grubinst.exe).

cheers

Steve

Hi Steve

 

I did use the latest Beta for the installation.

 

BTW, what about "exFAT" support as file system (format) in RMPrepUSB. I always wondered why it is not available. Any technical limitations ?

 

Regards,

Oliver



#15 steve6375

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

I have no plans for exFAT. Many bootable OS's do not understand exFAT and so many would not boot from an exFAT USB drive or be able to access it if they could boot. So it is not really suitable to use for a multiboot drive.



#16 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

Just for the record, and limited to XP/2003 and PE 1.x, exFAT booting is possible using the "XP Kansas City Shuffle" as cdob reported here:

http://www.msfn.org/...d-on-usb-stick/

http://www.msfn.org/...post__p__831866

(the news since then are that now grub4dos should have no issues with exFAT):

http://reboot.pro/to...-exfat-volumes/

 

The BOOTMGR from Windows 8 can actually boot from exFAT, so it should be possible to use it for PE 2.x, 3.x and Vista :ph34r: and 7 besides 8 and PE 4.0:

http://reboot.pro/to...l-boot-install/

 

What is strangely enough seemingly lagging is wide support in Linux distro's. :(

 

 

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#17 Sha0

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:49 PM

as soon as I select anything from the g4d menu it hangs.

You could also try the blocklist command from the grub4dos shell to see which sectors the ISO occupies

So I guess you'd need to figure out a way to the shell without using the menu.
 

...BOTH are anyway installed to the MBR and to a few hidden sectors after it (mind you this is not "bad" nor "good", it is just a matter of being accurate)

It is bad. You cannot make it hybrid with either GPT or APM if this space is used.

#18 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

So I guess you'd need to figure out a way to the shell without using the menu.
 

That is considered a "very advanced" task ;), you know, like renaming menu.lst to mynu.lst  :whistling:

(if grub4dos does not find a menu.lst it falbacks to command prompt)

 

It is bad. You cannot make it hybrid with either GPT or APM if this space is used.

NO, it is bad IF you want to do a hybrid GPT or APM (whatever APM is) and as well it is "bad" IF you have on the disk some (usually from the DOS era) Commercial programs that use the hidden sectors to validate their license of whatever, in itself it not good nor bad. 

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#19 Sha0

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:55 PM

That is considered a "very advanced" task :whistling:
(if grub4dos does not find a menu.lst it falbacks to command prompt)

Since when? Do you mean the internal menu's timeout choice? If so, once again:

as soon as I select anything from the g4d menu it hangs.

You and steve6375 are assuming that paraglider is giving an incomplete story and is mistaken about what "anything" means. Even if you're right, please note the flaw in the logic.
 

NO, it is bad IF you want to do a hybrid GPT or APM (whatever APM is) and as well it is "bad" IF you have on the disk some (usually from the DOS era) Commercial programs that use the hidden sectors to validate their license of whatever, in itself it not good nor bad.

No, it's bad all around. It was a non-exhaustive list of examples containing a single element.

#20 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:29 PM

Since when? Do you mean the internal menu's timeout choice? If so, once again:You and steve6375 are assuming that paraglider is giving an incomplete story and is mistaken about what "anything" 

 

Sure :whistling:

To me a menu with non-selectable menu entries - the normal "embedded" menu.lst - does not count as the grub4dos cannot lock after the user has made a selection in it, because this selection is not possible.....

 

JFYI, using 14" wheels on a number of cars is bad :w00t: because if it snows you cannot mount snow chains and you need to replace the tires with snow tires.

The relevance of this fact is different for someone who lives in Canada when compared to someone who lives in southern California.

 

:cheers:

Wonko



#21 steve6375

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:33 PM

 as soon as I select anything from the g4d menu it hangs. 

To run the shell you do not select anything once in the menu, you just hit the C key.



#22 Sha0

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

Sure :whistling:
To me a menu with non-selectable menu entries - the normal "embedded" menu.lst - does not count as the grub4dos cannot lock after the user has made a selection in it, because this selection is not possible.....

Why isn't selecting at the internal menu possible? I thought there was a timeout of 1 second. Also, isn't having the timeout invoke the default option the same as selecting the menu item? If it results in a hang, then that's of no use.

JFYI, using 14" wheels on a number of cars is bad :w00t: because if it snows you cannot mount snow chains and you need to replace the tires with snow tires.
The relevance of this fact is different for someone who lives in Canada when compared to someone who lives in southern California.

I don't think that's analogous enough. It's a bad idea to get into the habit of assuming that you own something that appears to be unclaimed, because others can have the same assumption and this scenario can lead to conflict. That "it's worked for me so far" isn't really the best excuse for doing it when it turns out to be the Wrong Thing To Do, some day.

If you have a never-changing USB stick (or HDD image) with the GRUB4DOS "master boot track" followed by a FAT partition, you'll be happy for a long time... Until the day comes that you plug it (or image it) into a computer that doesn't have a 512-byte sector and cannot do unaligned sector-reads and it turns out that the code really should've been fit into the 440 bytes, after all. (Just another example.)

To run the shell you do not select anything once in the menu, you just hit the C key.

I understand that we have different definitions, then. I would still call that "selecting the command-line from the menu." I'm not trying to subtract value from your great suggestion [thumbsup that I can't insert] to use the blocklist command, but it doesn't help if one cannot get out of the menu, which one will always have. I'm sure we could agree that it's unlikely that paraglider cannot access the CLI. I found it odd that paraglider should say "anything" rather than "my entry for booting the .ISO," if paraglider really didn't mean "anything." [smiley that I can't insert]

Similarly, my suggestion doesn't help if you don't have 32-bit Windows. [wink that I can't insert]

P. S. Can't insert lots of emoticons, today.

#23 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

I guess you should sue paraglider for "non exhaustive and foolproof enough statement" and both steve6375 and Wonko the Sane for "misrepresenting as obvious a very complex procedure".
 
Wonko the Sane can well be additionally sued for "excessive neutrality about potential damages coming from improper use of hidden sectors"
 
Instead of assuming that there is a timeout of 1 second in the embedded menu.lst, you could however have actually checked it's contents ( this is from grub4dos-0.4.5c-2012-12-05 )
 
configfile
default 0
timeout 0
title find /menu.lst, /boot/grub/menu.lst, /grub/menu.lst
errorcheck off
configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst
configfile /grub/menu.lst
if "%@root%"=="(ud)" && calc *0x82A0=*0x82b9&0xff
if "%@root:~1,1%"=="f" && find --set-root --devices=f /menu.lst && configfile /menu.lst
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /menu.lst && configfile /menu.lst
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /boot/grub/menu.lst && configfile /boot/grub/menu.lst
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /grub/menu.lst && configfile /grub/menu.lst
errorcheck on
commandline
title commandline
commandline
title reboot
reboot
title halt
halt
 
:cheers:
Wonko

#24 tinybit

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:48 PM

I personally feel bad that timeout=0 have been there in the preset-menu.

 

I guess chenall had changed "timeout 1" to "timeout 0". The change is bad IMHO.



#25 paraglider

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 04:47 AM

My NTFS formatted USB stick would boot ok on some machines. On one machine it hangs every time. On that same machine using the ezboot boot loader would also hang when selecting anything from its menu regardless of how the USB stick was formatted. For the moment I am using FAT32 + g4d menus. However I am very close to the file size limits of FAT32. Several of my fully patched windows isos are > 4GB so cannot be copied to fat32 so I went with an iso that contains the boot folder + boot.wim with external sourcesxxxx folders containing the original sources contents. That way I avoid having to patch bootmgr. My fully patched win8.x64 install.wim is already 3.82GB so there is not much expansion room.






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