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XP.WIM at bootmgr


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#1 genetix

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:05 AM

XP CD D1(VM) -> root2 (VM) -> map -> XP.wim -> bootmgr(USB) or syslinux

Is this actually possible to be build?

I've gone so far quite lenghts to try to boot it with FILE=[boot]xp.wim to ramdisk solutions without modifying a single XP file.

Reproduce:
1. VMWare
2. HD1 (IDE) - C: (NTFS), HD2(IDE) - D:(NTFS)
3. XP install D:
4. from D: XP installation ->
5. XP Install C:
6. Map C: on reboot
7. Capture C: -> XP.WIM
8. build bootmgr:
- boot<vista/7files>
- bootmgr
- XP.WIM
9. boot ramdisk=[boot]xp.wim,{ramdiskoptions} (makes bootmgr errors no matter how I build it) or directly FILE=[boot]xp.wim (boot.ini errors no matte how I build it)
10. build basic ISO with Vista bootcode

So, is there anyway to use WIM as XP installation disk without WinPE enviroment or destroying the whole disk with some none sense ?

-edit-

Fail to mention, this method is tested to be fully functional with anykind of VHD or IMG with simply mounting the 'vhd' to X: or any drive and directing boot to it. However, I cannot understand why neither bootmgr or syslinux memdisk can do that clean mount WIM -> D: -> boot D:..

Edited by genetix, 04 October 2012 - 02:11 AM.


#2 joakim

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:52 PM

Don't know what the content of xp.wim is, but bootmgr certainly can mount a wim and pass on execution to winload.exe inside it. There may be version issues depending on how old you bootmgr is, and which wim version it can handle correctly, but any newer version should do. Note that XP is not natively supported with wimbooting. However nikzzz made a patch to facilitate nt5.x WinPE booting from wim (search wimboot script here), whereas a full XP in WIM with some old notes from me (based on the work of nikzzz) can be found here; http://sanbarrow.com...opic.php?t=1695

What is the complete content of the configuration file that bootmgr find the necessary information in order to boot?

#3 genetix

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:33 AM

Don't know what the content of xp.wim is, but bootmgr certainly can mount a wim and pass on execution to winload.exe inside it.


Wonder, if here is my mistake believing that WIM works as an compressed partition while mounted and instead needs a bit kick start. I know I can A. integrate imagex/dism to 'boot.wim' -> run basic 'boot.wim' (even with general regedit to launch auto extraction of XP.WIM to root) and this way do the job. (However, this will also fail, follow up below)

There may be version issues depending on how old you bootmgr is, and which wim version it can handle correctly, but any newer version should do.


Yep, Microsoft did everything in their booth to prevent people utilizing old wimfltr and imagex to actually make it possible to capture second stage of Windows XP installation at WAIK 2.0, heh. Only thing you can use is original 2 first WAIK files to unscrew what they did to prevent XP installations. No one should never ever use WAIK 2.0 to any purpose on my opinion.

Note that XP is not natively supported with wimbooting. However nikzzz made a patch to facilitate nt5.x WinPE booting from wim (search wimboot script here), whereas a full XP in WIM with some old notes from me (based on the work of nikzzz) can be found here; http://sanbarrow.com...opic.php?t=1695


heh, you know I've read that url probably hundred times in past 2 weeks. Basically I got over 20 builds standing on my HDs from those notions build separate memdisk styles, vdisks you name it simply to prove own own theories incorrect.

What is the complete content of the configuration file that bootmgr find the necessary information in order to boot?


I am running WIM, atm, build from second stage of XP installation and bootmgr simply has 3 entries:
* bootsector style (Direct load of xp.wim as bootable image)
- Fails to start the setup from $WINNT$.~LS currently and fails to boot to NTLDR giving me boot.ini issues (which is directed to: $WINNT.~btbootsect.dat)
* osloader style ('winload.exe' inside the .WIM similar location than on Vista/7/8 boot.wim and regs and execution on registry turned to ntldr which in current test build I have here is hex'ed setupldr.bin)
- fails currrently to locate command I am giving it under registry.
* osloader style WinPE boot.wim loaded patched with different compression styles and Disk Signature and/or MBR backup/restore utilities to patch the disk if nessessary (my ultimate conclusion of XP.WIM - clone the empty disk with MBR/signatures -> apply the WIM directly to the disk -> boot) -> which in this stage I could use much much more improved compression methods like 7-zip LZMA2 or similar with about 512MB to direct extract.

I am currently considering minimal compressed ISO image at ramdisk methods. Something similar to linux initrd.gz load up from syslinux. Doesn't really matter if the image itself takes 1GB of RAM, but the fact of it's size on media is a killer.


--edit--

Had to come back and say that ideally, if an idea that XP could resident in WIM at any form to execute an installation you could make 1 DVD WIM file which would include every NT 5.x system in this earth even incredimentally with service releases it would not take in size more than 1 x 8GB DVD media or a very small USB stick these days.

Edited by genetix, 05 October 2012 - 05:46 AM.


#4 joakim

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying, or how your wim is constructed. Please post the exact error message you receive at what you try, and it will be easier to figure out when in the boot process you fail.

#5 genetix

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:26 AM

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying, or how your wim is constructed. Please post the exact error message you receive at what you try, and it will be easier to figure out when in the boot process you fail.


I am working clean XP x86 atm inside the WIM as explained on first topic.

1. Virtual Machine
2. Part 1 "C:", Part 2 "D:"
3. Installed XP to D: drive first and then ran setup mode from XP at D: drive
(to get boot + XP install only to drive C: and include options that CD is never asked at rest of install.)
4. mount and imagex capture the C:

That is the state of XP.WIM.

#6 joakim

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

The install XP from WIM variant was something I personally never tried, so cannot say. However, runing both WinPE and non-WinPE from XP works, so why not also the "install from" stunt too. But of course it's a bit tricky cause it's not natively supported. I think I remember something related over at msfn forums (search there).

It's still confusing when you use terms like "XP.WIM" instead of boot.wim or install.wim, and "build bootmgr" instead of setting the configuration for bootmgr (boot.ini or BCD?). And, as far as I know, syslinux/memdisk can't do anything with a wim, whereas bootmgr definetely can.

Sorry, but I still don't understand at what stage your boot fails. Is it in winpe or after you have applied something to local disk and attempted booting from it?

Btw, we have still not seen the exact error message you are facing..

#7 genetix

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

The install XP from WIM variant was something I personally never tried, so cannot say. However, runing both WinPE and non-WinPE from XP works, so why not also the "install from" stunt too. But of course it's a bit tricky cause it's not natively supported. I think I remember something related over at msfn forums (search there).


Yeah, I've been reading hours after hours on web and also MSDN forums. I'm sure I can dig up something new there still, but takes time to read all related topics everywhere.

It's still confusing when you use terms like "XP.WIM" instead of boot.wim or install.wim, and "build bootmgr" instead of setting the configuration for bootmgr (boot.ini or BCD?). And, as far as I know, syslinux/memdisk can't do anything with a wim, whereas bootmgr definetely can.


There would not be any 'boot.wim' which is why I am referring as 'xp.wim' which doesn't include any bootmgr inside the actual WIM image. Instead it's an Windows XP with NTLDR, inside that wim:
* $WINNT$.~BT
* $WINNT$.~LS
* $LDR$
* NTLDR
* boot.ini
* ntdetect.com

and that is whole content of the 'xp.wim' which is then added to boot from modified formation:
* BOOT<BCD>
* BOOTMGR
* XP.WIM

Loaded either to RAMDISK by BOOTMGR or which I've found much more successful loaded as 'FILE=[boot]xp.wim' which directly boots to XP partition.

Sorry, but I still don't understand at what stage your boot fails. Is it in winpe or after you have applied something to local disk and attempted booting from it?

Btw, we have still not seen the exact error message you are facing..


Well, I'm sorry it would be easier to record a video of error messages. I'm testing so many setups with different launch styles (FILE= or RAMDISK= at BOOTMGR) the errors are different while RAMDISK fails to load the image and fails to Vista/7/8 BOOTMGR the FILE= command fails to NTLDR, BOOT.INI (where the bootsect.dat checks disks signatures or hardware setup I believe and that is why it fails to load).

Doing my best to explain heck, if it would be possible to VNC or remote connection would be easier to explain as this section is only 1 part of whole project I am working on and it's simply consideration of my that, if it would be possible to load / compress incredimentally an functional NT5.x installation it would be pretty incredible step forward of storing history.

#8 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

If I understand correctly, what is inside the WIM is nothing but the result of:
D:i386winnt32.exe /syspart:C: /tempdrive:C: /makelocalsource /noreboot
right? :unsure:
I.e. you are trying to replicate (and possibly introduce some betterings) something *like* what was discussed here:
http://reboot.pro/4729/
http://reboot.pro/?showtopic=3549

The actual:
http://pantherxp.net/
is not available anymore, but the project should be here:
http://thuun.boot-land.net/PantherXP/

The above might contain some useful info (though it is not - as it seems to me - *exactly* the same approach)

If you could post the EXACT BCDEDIT command line you use to create the BCD entries (or the actual output of the BCDEDIT command on the BCD you are using), this would help.

Additionally we do have the knowledge/tools to "correct" either the "target" hard disk disk signature in the MBR and/or create/modify a bootsect.dat, so, if you can describe the issues we may be able to help, but right now (and I do understand :) the confusion created by testing various "semi-random" approach) what you provided is more like a "rant" expressing your delusion in failing at it then a "proper" request for assistance/discussion topic.

As always happen the standard litany applies:
http://homepage.ntlw...ard-litany.html
and also a few words illustrating the "general idea", the reasons why, etc. may help in inspiring other/new ideas (and conversely avoiding unwanted/unneeded ones), remember that there is always the risk of slipping on a chocolate-covered banana :ph34r: :
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html

As an example, any reason why it is needed to deploy an actual "XP setup" and not a "sysprepped" image?
Related to this latter approach:
http://www.911cd.net...hp?showforum=43
https://sites.google...stem-deployment


Please also note that MSFN (suggested by joakim) is NOT MSDN:
http://www.msfn.org/board/




:cheers:
Wonko

#9 genetix

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:04 PM

If I understand correctly, what is inside the WIM is nothing but the result of:

D:i386winnt32.exe /syspart:C: /tempdrive:C: /makelocalsource /noreboot
right? :unsure:


Correct

I.e. you are trying to replicate (and possibly introduce some betterings) something *like* what was discussed here:
http://reboot.pro/4729/
http://reboot.pro/?showtopic=3549

The actual:
http://pantherxp.net/
is not available anymore, but the project should be here:
http://thuun.boot-land.net/PantherXP/

The above might contain some useful info (though it is not - as it seems to me - *exactly* the same approach)


Yeah, this sounds curious odd never stepped on those project before taking a look on it, if nothing else at least will be interesting reading indeed.

If you could post the EXACT BCDEDIT command line you use to create the BCD entries (or the actual output of the BCDEDIT command on the BCD you are using, this would help.


Will, be adding this later, if needed on to topic..I am currently testing completely other kinda of setup where original image is kept intact booted off currently on partitions which are incredimentally packed with my own tools and then mounted as drive 4th primary partition (anyway more on this later on also).

Additionally we do have the knowledge/tools to "correct" either the "target" hard disk disk signature in the MBR and/or create/modify a bootsect.dat, so, if you can describe the issues we may be able to help, but right now (and I do understand :) the confusion created by testing various "semi-random" approach) what you provided is more like a "rant" expressing your delusion in failing at it then a "proper" request for assistance/discussion topic.

As always happen the standard litany applies:
http://homepage.ntlw...ard-litany.html
and also a few words illustrating the "general idea", the reasons why, etc. may help in inspiring other/new ideas (and conversely avoiding unwanted/unneeded ones), remember that there is always the risk of slipping on a chocolate-covered banana :ph34r: :
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html


I don't think MBR / signature restoration in technical sense is hard for me either, was just making a point how I might of been thinking wrong on concept, mount WIM, run WIM that the installation source was simply checking the MBR / Signatures and that was the reason why I was failing where I was wrong which I tested yesterday.

As for rest of that I don't think I've 'rant' anything. I simply made topic of what I was building, considering and hoped that there might be simpler way out (which I think I found today morning).

As an example, any reason why it is needed to deploy an actual "XP setup" and not a "sysprepped" image?
Related to this latter approach:
http://www.911cd.net...hp?showforum=43
https://sites.google...stem-deployment


Well, not really was just hoping it wouldn't come to this as this is 50 times more work to build as "impossible" to automate and that is why it is extremely bad approach in the first place. Ideally loading disk to RAM is better approach than this one considering hours work it takes to be build and yet being narrative choise to build than actual installation, but you are correct it does the job.

---

Currently working on a bit another style of system patch..

#10 pscEx

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:11 PM

I do not have a good feeling, when reading your response.

Why not make it "Simply"?

When you have an unsolved question, put this question here as clear and complete as possible and add all information, doubts, questions you have.

I'm sure that several members try to help you.

The method "I tell only as much as in my opinion is necessesary now" will propably bring no success. In the opposite, it will frustrate the "asker" as well as the "responder".

(The first post has a lot of info, questions etc. But at least for me the explanation of some steps does not really explain what is your final intention.)

Peter

#11 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

When you have an unsolved question, put this question here as clear and complete as possible and add all information, doubts, questions you have.

I'm sure that several members try to help you.

The method "I tell only as much as in my opinion is necessesary now" will propably bring no success. In the opposite, it will frustrate the "asker" as well as the "responder".

(The first post has a lot of info, questions etc. But at least for me the explanation of some steps does not really explain what is your final intention.)

Yep :), this is EXACTLY what should be conveyed by the given:
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html
particularly:

State the actual thing that you are trying to achieve. State what your actual problem is. Stop focussing on the minutiae of a particular solution. Stop forcing people to guess what it is that you are actually trying to do.

Forcing people to guess is wasting your time. More importantly, it is wasting their time. Many people will choose not to waste their time on you.


More loosely, this is a Community where a lot of different people, with different levels of knowledge but also with knowledge in different "fields", tend to gather:
if a topic/request/whatever is clear, exact, documented, easily reproduceable. it is much more likely that more people - even those with a lesser knowledge of the specifics - might chime in, providing some new ideas or "lateral thinking" that in some cases has been proved to play a "key role" in solving issues/finding new ways. :thumbsup:



:cheers:
Wonko
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#12 genetix

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:01 AM

Well, actually I was successful (in another build style) as I said there was no need to explainatory while I was testing just a theory of 'Windows XP' possibly being inside WIM image, .WIM mounted from Windows Vista installer. Honestly guys/gals I cannot think anything more clearly explained than that, if someone would tell me that you have XP CD and you have Vista DVD and they would be creating Vista DVD bootmgr boot to Windows XP CD I wouldn't have any difficulties understanding what the fellow is trying to do. Take 2 ISOs and drop them together clean installable, if this would mean that either of the end sources would be modified by any means or temps would be left behind or that there is even removed features from installation(in this case Stage 1 XP setup failure) it is a fail attempt.

I was as clear as person could possible be on the subject.

----

Further more I now believe only way to actually do a clean result is the usage of RAM and minimalizing installation source from compressable CD format.

Edited by genetix, 11 October 2012 - 11:05 AM.


#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:45 PM

I was as clear as person could possible be on the subject.

Good :), then we are evidently too d@mn dumb to understand your clear explanation, you might want to find some board with more intelligent members. :unsure:

Further more I now believe only way to actually do a clean result is the usage of RAM and minimalizing installation source from compressable CD format.

Yes :thumbsup:, though if I were you I would flabbergast the cache by inserting a native kernel driver before the uncompressing stage, just below the upper filter. :dubbio:

:cheers:
Wonko

#14 genetix

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

@Winko the Sane

Don't understand what's your problem?

If I have to solve a problem of anykind that usually means I have to clone it or rebuild it and then debug it and then I will be able to help on subject, which I clearly gave on first post of this topic how to replicate the concept I was trying to build. Doesn't take a genious to understand that.

No one asked anyone to build what I asked, but someone could of understand why Windows NT6 cannot boot from WIM to install, which as partition it works after finishing 1st stage of installation. Simply answer to the question is that the WIM does not mount from bootmgr as hard drive to install and so without modification to original source installer it's not possible to build the scenario I was attempting to build.

and yes I will need linux to boot the compressed image, although, it wouldn't have to be native for your sarcasm....

Edited by genetix, 11 October 2012 - 04:21 PM.


#15 Sha0

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 04:52 PM

...
Don't understand what's your problem?
...
and yes I will need linux to boot the compressed image, although, it wouldn't have to be native for your sarcasm....

I think it is easier for discussants in these forums to work with observations, rather than conclusions.

Conclusion:

It didn't work.

Observation:

The last thing on my screen says "$WINNT.~bttxtsetup.sif not found. Press any key to reboot your computer."

Conclusion:

It's much slower from HTTP than from a Windows share.

Observation:

I typed in wget http://foo/bar and after a minute, I saw the command prompt again. I typed copy foosharebar . and after 10 seconds, I saw the command prompt again.

Conclusion:

NTLDR can't boot a .WIM file with XP in it.

Observation:

I have an HDD with a single partition formatted with NTFS with the following files: xxx, yyy, zzz, ... I used Disk Management to make the partition active. When I turn on the computer and the HDD boots, all the messages go by pretty quickly, but what I end up with is a message saying "No active partition"

Conclusion:

Since I installed the video driver, the display doesn't work

Observation:

I turn on the computer, see BIOS POST messages, see the Windows splash screen, then the display goes blank and stays that way until I reboot the computer with the reset switch on the tower

et cetera. :)

Please let me share some of the things that I enjoy: If someone mentions an image file (not a picure file) of any kind, they include the contents of the image file. If someone is using config-files, they share the contents of those config-files. If they used any special commands to build image-files or boot or connect to a server, they share those commands.

You have done some of these things. Personally, I am just having a tough time following if you have one specific goal or not, and if you are trying to resolve a problem you've encountered on your way to achieving that goal. Member joakim certainly has done a lot of XP .WIM thoughts, so maybe something you conclude as impossible actually isn't. I don't know. :suda:

#16 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:31 AM

@Winko the Sane

Don't understand what's your problem?

Now, none. :)

Before, I was unable to understand you (and your problem) and tried to do so :frusty: - BTW in order to hopefully try and help you solve it.

Since I failed :ph34r:, I asked for clarifications, and since you stated that you had been as clear as possible (and still I could not make head or tail of the problem :w00t:) I had to conclude that your problem (whatever it is :unsure:) is too difficult for my level of knowledge/experience/intelligence. :ph34r:

What you wrote appeared to me like Vogon Poetry:
http://hitchhikers.w...ki/Vogon_Poetry
and since I am (thankfully) NOT strapped on a Vogon poetry appreciation chair I can walk away allright.

I just posted a line to show how I can also compose that kind of stuff, and of course I never talked of linux, which means that you also cannot understand me, which makes for a nice, symmetrical situation:
Spoiler


:cheers:
Wonko

#17 halikus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:49 AM

Wonko, out of your 7,173 posts, how many do you think you belittle people? Your sarcastic aura of superiority is one of the most annoying things on the whole internet for me. I'm 99% sure you are not married.

For the OP, i do the same approach with XP, how we capture the wim. You can even have multiple indexes saving alot of space, and it copies much faster than the individual files of the i386 directory. How i deploy it is to boot to a Winbuilder PE, format the target drive, set it active, deploy it with imagex, and then run the bootsect /nt52 command to get it to boot.

If you understand autoit, i just use a simple gui like this...


#Region ;**** Directives created by AutoIt3Wrapper_GUI ****

#AutoIt3Wrapper_Icon=XPXP.ico

#AutoIt3Wrapper_Compression=4

#AutoIt3Wrapper_UseX64=n

#AutoIt3Wrapper_Res_requestedExecutionLevel=asInvoker

#AutoIt3Wrapper_Add_Constants=n

#EndRegion ;**** Directives created by AutoIt3Wrapper_GUI ****

#include <ButtonConstants.au3>

#include <GUIConstantsEx.au3>

#include <StaticConstants.au3>

#include <WindowsConstants.au3>

FileInstall("XPMBR_bootsect_XP.cmd", @WindowsDir & "system32", 0)

#region ### START Koda GUI section ### Form=xp wim.kxf

$Form4_2 = GUICreate("XP Wim Installer", 324, 117, 192, 124)

$Button1 = GUICtrlCreateButton("Capture Wim", 16, 16, 115, 57)

$Button2 = GUICtrlCreateButton("Deploy Wim", 192, 16, 115, 57)

$Label1 = GUICtrlCreateLabel("   OR?", 144, 48, 36, 17)

$Button3 = GUICtrlCreateButton("NT Wim Installer", 32, 80, 115, 25)

$Button4 = GUICtrlCreateButton("Gimagex", 176, 80, 115, 25)

GUISetState(@SW_SHOW)

#endregion ### END Koda GUI section ###

While 1

$nMsg = GUIGetMsg()

Switch $nMsg

  Case $GUI_EVENT_CLOSE

   Exit

  Case $Button1 ;Capture Wim (Advanced)

   $TargetAA = FileSelectFolder("Select HDD Sorce drive for WIM", "")

   ;imagex /compress max /capture %_Target%: "%_Target%:XP.wim" "XP Sp3 x86 (Unattended) (Sept 2011)"

   RunWait(@WindowsDir & "system32IMAGEX.EXE /compress max /capture " & $TargetAA & " " & $TargetAA & 'XP.wim  "XP Sp3 x86"')

  Case $Button2 ;Deploy XP Wim (Advanced)

   $WIM = FileOpenDialog("Chooe the XP WIM file", @ScriptDir, "wim (*.wim)", 2)

   $TargetBB = FileSelectFolder("Select XP HDD Target drive", "")

   RunWait(@WindowsDir & "system32IMAGEX.EXE /apply " & $WIM & " 1 " & $TargetBB)

   ;RunWait(@WindowsDir & "system32MBR_bootsect_XP.cmd")

   ;$Targetnt52 = FileSelectFolder("Select XP drive", "")

   $szFile = "x:windowssystem32MBR_bootsect_XP.cmd"

   $szText = FileRead($szFile, FileGetSize($szFile))

   $szText = StringReplace($szText, "DRIVE", $TargetBB)

   FileDelete($szFile)

   FileWrite($szFile, $szText)

   $szFile = "x:windowssystem32MBR_bootsect_XP.cmd"

   $szText = FileRead($szFile, FileGetSize($szFile))

   $szText = StringReplace($szText, "::", ":")

   FileDelete($szFile)

   FileWrite($szFile, $szText)

   RunWait(@ComSpec & " /k" & ' ' & "x:windowssystem32MBR_bootsect_XP.cmd", "")

  Case $Button3

   Run(@TempDir & "WinNTSetup2.exe")

  Case $Button4

   Run(@WindowsDir & "system32gimagex.exe")



EndSwitch

WEnd


and the MBR_bootsect_XP.cmd...


%~dp0bootsect /nt52 DRIVE: /force /mbr



#18 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

Wonko, out of your 7,173 posts, how many do you think you belittle people? Your sarcastic aura of superiority is one of the most annoying things on the whole internet for me. I'm 99% sure you are not married.

Well, you can ignore my posts allright, if they disturb you, that's a good thing about freedom :worship:, one is free to write and another one is free to avoid reading :smiling9:.
And no, unfortunately you are 100% wrong on the specific notion, I am actually (happily) married :).

However, UNlike the OP, you provide a clear, detailed, exhaustive example of what you do, this is IMHO very good (and nice) of you :thumbsup:.


:cheers:
Wonko




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