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Little Rant (part2)


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#1 MedEvil

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:14 PM

Yep, it's that time again. ;)

I'm rather unhappy with a few developments on reboot.pro.

Firstly, reboot.pro is clearly no longer a developer board, but rather a support board. Which is not wrong in any way, just not what i signed up to. Many other seem to think so too and have already left.


Second, Though, to have any script can be considered better, than to have no script at all, i'm still rather upset about the general quality of the available scripts. Even the bare minimum, that it works, is not always given.


Third. Quantity over quality. :(
I have downloaded all app scripts, i could find last month. 2,7GB to be precise.
After removing all doublicates and older versions, there were still 1,8GB left.

After testing the scripts in builds, the number fell to just 570MB, when i deleted scripts, which did not work correctly or removed inferiror scripts for the same application.

When finally left with a build, with all working apps, i started to compare the different programs, which did the same job.
Though i cut the programs a lot of slack, when considering them, not to be designed for the same job and i'm a fan of deversity, there's just no reason to write scripts for way inferior programs, just to drive the count of scripts up!

Maybe i'm weird, but shouldn't the script developer have at least used / tested the program and consider it to be a good program, before he writes a script for it?

I'm not yet done with the testing, but already the scripts have droped to 317MB.

By just comparing the initial 1,8GB to the now 317MB, one can see, how much time and effort is wasted in development, but also, how much time of the enduser is wasted, who has to dig through that haystack in search of needles.

People don't need half a dozend or more programs, which all claim to do the same thing. They need one. One that works guaranteed.

:cheers:
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#2 sbaeder

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 02:59 PM

Firstly, reboot.pro is clearly no longer a developer board, but rather a support board. Which is not wrong in any way, just not what i signed up to. Many other seem to think so too and have already left.


Well, that is a part of "developement"...if you build it and make it available to others, they will always need support...But I don't totally disagree with where your going with this "rant"...

Second, Though, to have any script can be considered better, than to have no script at all, i'm still rather upset about the general quality of the available scripts. Even the bare minimum, that it works, is not always given.


yes, this is always a possible issue when things aren't properly "vetted" by someone, and is someting maybe we could work on with some sort of a ratings system...Afterall, just look at the market for "apps"...Lots of "chaff" just to find a few kernels of wheat.

Third. Quantity over quality. :(
I have downloaded all app scripts, i could find last month. 2,7GB to be precise.
After removing all doublicates and older versions, there were still 1,8GB left.

After testing the scripts in builds, the number fell to just 570MB, when i deleted scripts, which did not work correctly or removed inferiror scripts for the same application.

When finally left with a build, with all working apps, i started to compare the different programs, which did the same job.
Though i cut the programs a lot of slack, when considering them, not to be designed for the same job and i'm a fan of deversity, there's just no reason to write scripts for way inferior programs, just to drive the count of scripts up!

Maybe i'm weird, but shouldn't the script developer have at least used / tested the program and consider it to be a good program, before he writes a script for it?


I'm not sure anyone does this, so maybe the person writing the script felt it was "worth" the effort based on how they felt about that particular tool.

I'm not yet done with the testing, but already the scripts have droped to 317MB.

By just comparing the initial 1,8GB to the now 317MB, one can see, how much time and effort is wasted in development, but also, how much time of the enduser is wasted, who has to dig through that haystack in search of needles.

People don't need half a dozend or more programs, which all claim to do the same thing. They need one. One that works guaranteed.


Well, the tools that work for you may bother someone else, so having the "free market" dictate might be a better way...either ratings, or download counts, or any number of ways to help convey the "quality" and "suitability" of the tools would be a good thing.

I hope that you make all this effort you are putting in available to others. No need to provide yet another set of files to download, but at least some sort of a review or listing of the apps and your organization, etc would be a good way to give back tot he community.

And maybe this can also help drive a productive discussion on the ways we could organize the information better about what projects they work with or the tool categories or the "quality" (which is necessarily based on individual perception) of the tools/scripts, etc.

Bottom line is we all (I hope) want to help make things better...

:cheers:


and to you as well...

:cheers:
Scott

#3 MedEvil

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:53 PM

Scott, i mainly keep going, because i have already invested so much time.
But from an economic point of view, aside from a few real gems, one is far better off, to avoid all checking and testing of existing scripts and just write own ones instead.

I'm not sure anyone does this, so maybe the person writing the script felt it was "worth" the effort based on how they felt about that particular tool.

Some years ago, when first the idea of app-scripts was born, Nuno turned out an enormous number of those simple scripts. He couldn't possible have tested all those programs in that little time and he didn't.
He just harvested the web for free programs, which could run without requireing registry entries.

Judging from the scripts, i have seen, many still seem to work that way.

Well, the tools that work for you may bother someone else, so having the "free market" dictate might be a better

Like i said, there's nothing wrong with having 2 or even 3 good alternatives. But why have a dozend really bad ones, just so the one good one isn't so lonely?

:cheers:

#4 Guest_Boot_Monkey_*

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 01:03 AM

I feel that the script quality is a little low, but I also feel that I'm not in a position to complain since I've only written two good scripts myself and it's the good people here that gave me the advice on how to do stuff correctly, that I could get my scripts working to a point where I could release them.

My scripts are a little niche and so, wouldn't help this community much. One of the scripts has already been published by someone else, but didn't work for me because the author didn't consider differing scenarios and made assumptions. I'm trying to make mine more universal. (ie: they had hard coded some of the commands )

I've always wanted working AV scripts but find that they always fall short of working. It loads, but there is always some kind of issue where it fails to work correctly. Missing this, missing that. Updates don't work no proxy support etc. Also it would be very hard to write a good AV script because often the AV prog being used will change the way it works and loads, and then we are left having to find out what those changes are and make adjustments all over again.

Looking forward to seeing some great scripts, but a lot of us are still learning on how to do that so we can give back to the community. I'm certainly trying to do that but I don't want to submit something and then find out that I have to re-write it all over again because I failed to make considerations for this or that.

I'm using Winbuilder 82 and don't see the point in using 80. Maybe someone can point out the differences so I can possibly make sure my script suit using either version.

#5 pscEx

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 06:24 PM

I'm using Winbuilder 82 and don't see the point in using 80. Maybe someone can point out the differences so I can possibly make sure my script suit using either version.

The main point:
One of the advantages of WB 082 is the build speed. The build under 82 needs only 40% of the time of the 080 build.

In older projects, there are some unusual usages of syntax, which version 82 does not allow (e.g. a "Constant" is changed).

These incompatibilities are syntax formulations outside the official HELP. By whatever reason, in 080 they worked as intended, in 082 they are marked as warning or error, or they simply do not cause any processing.

BTW: When you have multiPE installed, it downloads (when not present) the nightly WinBuilder (083) version. This version is "200%" compatible to version 082, but it contains some important fixes:

[083]
date 2011-aug-16
fixed - bug in GetParam
changed - source editor line length increased from 1024 to 10240
fixed - "Invalid parameter count" warning in RegWrite 0x0
fixed - FILEZIZE and FOLDERSIZE to int64.
fixed - StrFormat,BYTES to int64
fixed - bug with Retrieve,FOLDERSIZE, when folder contains a file > 2 GB
changed - more meaningful error messages for RegMulti
added - language translation for download button
fixed - bug with unresolved nested variables like %setupfile_%SourceArch%%


Here again the possibility of an "incompatibility" revolution like it has been on 080 / 082:
Maybe some projects rely / depend on the wrong size results of 082. Sorry, the affected scripts / projects must be fixed.

Peter

@Medevil: Sorry to be a bit OFF TOPIC, but I think that the reply is important. :cheers:

#6 u2o

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 05:01 AM

I think from the point of view of someone who writes a script, is a bit difficult to prove in any version of WinBuilder, plus take a very long time which can be used to improve the availability of options for the application or script code improvement to ensure faster integration.

But consider also that aesthetics is not the strength of many. It is often difficult show in a friendly interface the settings for an application when it has many options. Not to mention that this can take about the same time that maybe you've done all the basic code. And more than once forces us to re-do all the work from scratch.

----

I think everyone should use the latest WinBuilder version available. Since there are major improvements with each new version and it shows. And normally he does a script is compatible with the latest version, otherwise it could not be used in the latest WinBuilder.

----

Also would be good, that who download a script, at least vote scoring ... I have created 4 scripts, and no one has voted neither. I not want all of you vote my scripts, but I think the system that can serve as guidance for anyone who intends to download these scripts and actually not being used...
So... I think there should be a voting system for the scripts. But also enable the negative vote to users who already have some time on the forum.
Thus, if the system is used consciously, the script with about 5 negative votes should be warned as doubtful.
Or offer, after some time, to who download a script, to make a statement commenting on whether you liked or not, if it works or not, etc.

Always, without these actions affect the position of the script in the download list ...

#7 paraglider

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:31 PM

Why do we have to download the multipe project to get the latest development version of winbuilder?

#8 DarkPhoeniX

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:45 PM

Maby whe need somthing like a reboot seal of aproval or a editors choice for the scripts and apps...
Btw i would like to see the list of apps you deem good...

#9 MedEvil

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:06 PM

Btw i would like to see the list of apps you deem good...

Guess this was meant for me.

Do you mean a list of scripts, i consider good as in 'usable' or do you mean a list of scripts whose programs, i consider good or a list of scripts, which i consider good examples, of what a good script should be like?

:cheers:

#10 DarkPhoeniX

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:25 PM

Um the First one ,iow the left 317MB after you sieved thrue the 2.7 GB

#11 MedEvil

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

Yes, can post the list, just not today.
If i havn't done so till sunday, feel free to remind me. ;)

:cheers:

#12 pscEx

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:12 PM

Why do we have to download the multipe project to get the latest development version of winbuilder?

Sorry, Paraglider, I have to contradict / explain.

There is an official released version 82 of WinBuilder here.
The latest development version of winbuilder is allways internal and published when ready.

Current projects use either older WinBuilder versions or run well under 082.
There are no known current issues with 082 in the projects published here.

In multiPE, when adding some new features, I found several 082 glitches, mainly due to integer / int64, e.g. in FILESIZE.

For multiPE I ifixed these glitches, and added a function to multiPE to download my latest development version.

my latest development version is not the latest WinBuilder version.

my version is not needed in any actual project besides multiPE!

Peter

#13 DarkPhoeniX

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:33 AM

I make my own scripts for my own use.the good ones i share here @reboot.pro
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