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Designing the perfect Winbuilder

winbuilder delphi java architecture

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#51 pscEx

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:22 PM

... and you leave project maintainers out of the quote ...

Project maintainers / developers / programmers / users have no correllationship to the quality of the tools they use, independent from WinBuilder or C++ resp.

Peter

#52 patpat

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

@wonko
I strongly disagree with your explanations now. Too long to enumerate.

@IceBlackIce
I understand what you mean. Design contributes to make a mess or to come out with a neater product.
Wimbuilder vitually encourages bad coding practices from its conception. (and I do not care about its history leading to this fact)

@pscEx
>I ask who's fault is that? The developer who doesn't know any better? The program who lets people do it in a bad way?
The program has to be always in control; if you are about to load a field with a sequence of dotted decimal IPs separated by commas and you as the program coder do not provide the tools for validating that field (regular expressions, range validator, etc) then you are responsible and not the one that in that field writes the path to a file…

Edited by patpat, 27 May 2012 - 08:47 PM.


#53 pscEx

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 08:55 PM

@pscEx
>I ask who's fault is that? The developer who doesn't know any better? The program who lets people do it in a bad way?
The program has to be always in control; if you are about to load a field with a sequence of dotted decimal IPs separated by commas and you as the program coder do not provide the tools for validating that field (regular expressions, range validator, etc) then you are responsible and not the one that in that filed writes the path to a file…


That's what I wanted to explain in several previous posts!
WinBuilder as batcher always does EXACTLY what the project / script author tells to do.

In your example the script / project misses the verification of the commands.

In Ice-Age of WinBuilder I published some programs "Verify", "Depends", "ScanScripts" which can check the most important possible user / developer failures.
But nobody tried to use them ...
And not using these checks inside a project, is in responsibility of the author, not of WinBuilder.

Peter

#54 IceBlackIce

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 09:52 PM

What about the validation of a .script file? Should that be responsibility of the .script file author or the program that tries to read it?
Because i just created an empty txt file renamed to .script and voila...Winbuilder loads it...and even when i run the script, it has absolutely no error

#55 paraglider

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:34 AM

I would much prefer to have a script that works as opposed to one that passes script validation.

#56 pscEx

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 08:14 AM

What about the validation of a .script file? Should that be responsibility of the .script file author or the program that tries to read it?
Because i just created an empty txt file renamed to .script and voila...Winbuilder loads it...and even when i run the script, it has absolutely no error

Just the name *.script does not cause that a script is processed.
1st it must be visible in the build tree. That is done by defining the level in [Main]
2nd it must be selected for process.

When it is selected, the section [Process] is processed line by line. When there is no section [Process] Winbuilder does nothing.

Maybe you read the help.

Peter

#57 paraglider

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:58 AM

The biggest problem winbuilder has is its stuck in the past with an antiquated buggy compiler. There are several ways to fix this:

1) Spend some money and buy the latest borland compiler.
2) Switch to an alternate pascal compiler like lazerus. Total commander file manager used this approach so that a 64 bit version could be produced.
3) Switch to an alternate language. Many choices here - there is the ms visual studio express to name one. Unfortunately MS decided with vs2011 express that only Metro apps would be supported. So developers of desktop apps will have to buy the paid pro version. Java would seem to be a reasonable choice as long as winbuilder is split into a UI and an engine. Java is not suitable for computing intensive tasks. That still leaves a need to compile the engine with a more modern compiler.

Yes winbuilder script language can be hard to learn. That's true of most script languages. However with the current language its possible to produce scripts that work and that are reasonably easy to understand. Just like any language it is possible to abuse the language and produce scripts that are almost impossible to understand and have user interfaces that are so complicated that most people cannot workout what options to choose.

The biggest problem with the script language is that the script state is maintained in the script which makes it hard to upgrade to later versions. There are ways round this - utility scripts are usually included to save and restore script state. This should not be necessary.

Another problem with the script language is the escape sequences. In most languages I have seen an escape sequence is just a prefix character to the character that has meaning in the language. So you would have something like % using the c mechanism to escape %. However winbuilder uses #$p. This makes the scripts much harder to understand than is necessary.

It should be a goal of any winbuilder project that a working project can be produced using options specified on just the start script of the project. Unfortunately winbuilder makes this hard as the windows source has to be specified elsewhere on the source tab.

#58 IceBlackIce

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:58 PM

I would much prefer to have a script that works as opposed to one that passes script validation.

Any reason why they should be only one of the options?


btw... i love how some posts are edited without getting tagged :D

#59 pscEx

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:26 PM

btw... i love how some posts are edited without getting tagged :D

Unwritten, but used rule:
Editorial changes (correcting typos etc.) can be made untagged.
Logical changes should be tagged, after a quote has been made to the original post.
(Some users need several minutes and some edits until they have their "final" post as html)
The forum's software does not provide an automatic tagging.

Peter

#60 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 06:26 PM

The forum's software does not provide an automatic tagging.

For the record it does allright, it is a setting that currently is evidently NOT set.

:cheers:
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#61 homes32

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

And the projects is another issue...why isnt there an easy way to create a project? To make people come in the site and register and upload it somewhere? Why cant i offline create a project inside the program with such and such script and make it work?

There is. You don't have to register or upload anything anywhere. you can do exactly as you want and create an offline project with any scripts you choose. The download center in winbuilder is simply a easy way for mainstream project to distribute updates without users having to download large archives containing an entire project when only 2 or 3 scripts have changed. you are in no way, shape, or form required to use it or even acknowledges its existence.
  • create a folder in the project dir
  • create an file called script.project in created folder
  • add the following info in script.project
  • 
    						[Main]
    
    						Title=My Project
    
    						Type=script
    
    						Author=Myself
    
    						Description=My New Project
    
    						Credits=
    
    						Version=0
    
    						Download_Level=0
    
    						Level=5
    
    						Selected=True
    
    						Mandatory=False
    
    						NoWarning=False
    
    						Contact=
    
    						Date=
    
    						Depend=
    
    						Disable=
    
    						TargetDir=
    
    						ISOfile=
    
    						AttachDir=
    
    						SourceDir=
    
    
  • have fun adding scripts.

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#62 pscEx

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:54 PM

Thanks homes32! :good:

Allow me one remark:

All the empty variables can be omitted in the new project.
Also the "mandatory" and "NoWarning" lines can be omitted.

But there is one misinformation: level=5 should be level=1
Depending on WinBuilder version, maybe the project with level=5 is not shown in the project tree.

Peter

#63 catfish182

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:17 PM

If i may put in my half cent. the question of designing a perfect winbuilder can not be answered until you answer the question of what is the intent of the app? what kind of person are you trying to help with this? are you trying to get more people to use it and bring more people into the site or are you trying to allow for a select amount of people (that understand the intent) to create anything they want?

I hope my questions are not to "off the beaten path" as it seems the replies are from people that have a lot of passion for this and wish to learn and evolve. it would seem a lot of history is coming into this conversation which is helpful but i dont know if its answering the question.

i apologize if i am not getting what i have been reading.
I am still very much a rookie at this.

I was using XPE from bart's PE for a live cd. i used it for two reasons. one for a recovery tool to work on computers. two so that i can killdisk, and image via ghost onto computers that were going out or coming in.

I needed to move to something that is more updated and i felt this would be the right option.
I have been able to duplicate what i did with bart's here and i see there is much more to learn but the learning curve is a bit high (not a issue with me as it gives me a challenge).

so for me i do not think i can comment on winbuilder. i do use it but do not have the experience or ability to speak on it in relation to improvements.

mine input would be for the projects but that is not what this is about correct?

once again please take what i say with respect towards the effort that everyone has put in.

#64 homes32

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:30 PM

@psc - just noticed there is nothing in the official docs about this. I'll get a section on creating a project from scratch in there today. Hopefully that will help others that want to create a personal project.

@catfish182

no worries. I also came here years ago after a long history working with UBCD4Win (a BartPE based project). It was a bit of a learning curve, but Winbuilder had everything I wanted in a replacement: Active development, advanced scripting/logic, and a graphical interface to make customizing the script easy and a wealth of knowledge and friendly community. Sure it isn't perfect, neither was Bart's or any other program I have come across for that matter, it just means that we get a chance to make it better.

#65 patpat

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:39 PM

About tagging edited entries; I think the best method is tagging a message only when there’s some other message posted after the edited one.


@paraglider
Even when I consider some of your ways to “fix the thing” non-practicable
I think your “WB problem depicting” is crystal clear.

@pscEx, @homes32
Why the project creation method is so weird? The project file can only be called script.project ???


@ catfish182
>If i may put in my half cent. the question of designing a perfect winbuilder can not be answered until you answer the question of what is the intent of the app?
I think everybody here knows at least a bit what WB does..

>what kind of person are you trying to help with this? are you trying to get more people to use it and bring more people into the site or are you trying to allow for a select amount of people (that understand the intent) to create anything they want?
I just wanted to get an educated opinion from users and developers about their WB experiences

>mine input would be for the projects but that is not what this is about correct?
Exactly; projects running under WB are not analyzed here... we just talk about the tool itself



This thread so far has been very informative, I started to play with some ideas for a prototype, let see if I can put them together.

Best

#66 vvurat

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:59 PM

Patpat.

I can not send pm to you. So i write to here.

i do not know if you know about this topic. if you want to code A NEW builder i am willing to help.

http://www.msfn.org/...-winpe-builder/

#67 patpat

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:16 PM

@vvurat
the funny thing about MSFN people is that I have written some innocent post talking about Serva and I have been immediately banned as spammer ;-)
Now I cannot see anything from that web site, Yes I know I have to erase the cookie, I will .

You can find my e-mail address on Serva's website contact page.

Best

#68 pscEx

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:18 PM

@pscEx, @homes32
Why the project creation method is so weird? The project file can only be called script.project ???

I thought you are a programmer.
In the windows world file extentions are associated with <contents>, <format>, <apps> etc.

I get the feeling that there is no constructive intention, only (IMO partly bullsh**) critics.

Topic becomes boring for me. In my mind I closed it.

Peter

#69 patpat

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 04:07 PM

@pscEx
if you tell me the project file has to be within a directory and being called
script.project is one thing if you tell me it has to be called<script>.project or
ScripName.project means a different thing..

>I get the feeling that there is no constructive intention, only (IMO partly bullsh**) critics.
well, while we discuss “bullsh** critics” here there's some Java coder feverishly punching his keyboard
on a project called “Winbuilder Reloaded”…Do you still think this is only about “bullsh** critics”?

Edited by patpat, 29 May 2012 - 04:11 PM.


#70 pscEx

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:34 PM

@patpat

Topic becomes boring for me. In my mind I closed it.

A gratification for you:
I mean (besides some possible language trouble) what I post.
Therefore no more replies by me in this topic.

Peter

#71 Nuno Brito

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:30 PM

the funny thing about MSFN people is that I have written some innocent post talking about Serva and I have been immediately banned as spammer ;-)
Now I cannot see anything from that web site, Yes I know I have to erase the cookie, I will .


Serva violates several licenses as thoroughly described and warned to you at http://reboot.pro/16873/#entry154471 that you "innocently" decided to ignore instead of moving towards a solution for this situation as mentioned by other forum members.


The "MSFN people" already banned you and after reading a topic like this one then I can really understand why: http://reboot.pro/16947/#entry155251

I'm quite sure that one day you will find a community which enjoys your psychopathic tendencies, personally I don't find them amusing and I'm quite sure that many other members on this community feel the same way. You decided to continue breaching the site policies and therefore you can now consider yourself restricted from participating on this community as well.


As a final note. One day you might end up learning that not even perfection is ever "perfect", sometimes it takes years to understand this fact of reality.

This topic is now closed.

Edited by Nuno Brito, 31 May 2012 - 03:06 PM.
My sincere apologies for the comment in regards to the mental state of the topic author. The banning comes as result from previous events in past weeks in this forum, by email and personal blog.






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