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Discussion about new site policies and Hiren related topics


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#1 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:21 AM

Steve,
I guess you missed this (new policies :ph34r:):
http://reboot.pro/about/policies

or may be Hiren's is an exception? :dubbio:

:cheers:
Wonko

--- Edit by Nuno ---
The first comments on this topic up to the reply by Sambul were split from this discussion: http://reboot.pro/16521/
My apologies if the current text seems out of context, we here are discussing the application of the site policies in regards to the specific matter of Hiren.

Edited by Nuno Brito, 13 March 2012 - 03:45 PM.
Added context information and link to original discussion


#2 steve6375

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

or may be Hiren's is an exception? :dubbio:

Not sure?? Hirens is openly downloadable and is openly sold on eBay as Rescue CDs, etc. MS seem to be able to block XP ISO downloads but don't seem to be bothered about Hirens (or maybe they cannot stop it). We have projects on this site for WinPE - but you still need a licence to use WinPE legally on a different PC. If you have a licence to use WinPE or XP, why is it illegal to download Hirens but not illegal to download a Win 7 ISO from Digital River or make a PE to boot on another system?

#3 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:51 AM

Not sure?? Hirens is openly downloadable and is openly sold on eBay as Rescue CDs, etc. MS seem to be able to block XP ISO downloads but don't seem to be bothered about Hirens (or maybe they cannot stop it). We have projects on this site for WinPE - but you still need a licence to use WinPE legally on a different PC. If you have a licence to use WinPE or XP, why is it illegal to download Hirens but not illegal to download a Win 7 ISO from Digital River or make a PE to boot on another system?

It is not AFAIK illegal to download *anything*, if not - in many western countries - Child Pornography :ph34r:.
Use of what you download may or may not be illegal.
Providing the download (redistributing) non-redistributable software certainly is.
Providing a link to a site that links to the download is - as I read and understand them - against Policies.

Contributions to the Forum must not:

• be defamatory (a defamatory comment is one that may damage the reputation of a person or organisation);
• be in contempt of Court (i.e. your contribution must not contain anything that risks prejudicing current or forthcoming Court proceedings);
• be threatening, abusive, harassing or invasive of a person's privacy;
• be sexist, racist, profane, blasphemous, homophobic or otherwise discriminatory and/or offensive;
• promote violence or advocate, condone or assist any unlawful act;
• describe violent intentions towards other people or organisations;
• be pornographic , sexually explicit, obscene or lewd;
• be used to impersonate any person or to misrepresent your identity;
• infringe any copyright, database right, trade mark or any other intellectual property, confidentiality or privacy rights of any person or organisation; or
• otherwise violate any law. In addition, your contribution must not post a link to a website that contains, or directly links to, material that contravenes any of these standards. In particular, you must not post a link to:
• offensive material (pornographic, discriminatory or gratuitously violent); or
unlawful material (such as material that condones or encourages unlawful acts, breaches intellectual property law or encourages others to do so, hacks or causes technical disruption to online services or describes how to conduct an unlawful act).
By submitting your contribution to our site you warrant that such contribution fulfils the above Content Standards. You also agree to indemnify us against all legal fees, damages and other expenses that may be named by us as a result of your breach of this warranty.


:cheers:
Wonko

#4 steve6375

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:32 PM

Providing a link to a site that links to the download is - as I read and understand them - against Policies.
:cheers:
Wonko

So is providing a link to a Google search URL for Hirens against policy?

#5 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:41 PM

So is providing a link to a Google search URL for Hirens against policy?

Who knows?

Your site page:
http://www.rmprepusb.../tutorials/hbcd
however, seems to me like:

material that condones or encourages unlawful acts, breaches intellectual property law or encourages others to do so

and doesn't seem to me like being susceptible of misunderstanding:

Hiren's Boot CD is a heavily modified and illegal version of Microsoft Windows XP.
.....
This tutorial describes how you can make any USB Flash memory drive (aka pen drive or thumb drive or UFD) or USB hard drive into a bootable drive that will boot and run Hiren's Boot CD.
......
Step 1 - Download Hiren's Boot CD
Download the ZIP file for HBCD v13.2 or v15.1 from here.
....


:cheers:
Wonko

#6 steve6375

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

The second sentence is:

If you have a licence to run Windows XP on your computer (e.g. if your computer has a Windows XP, Windows Vista Business or Ultimate or Windows 7 Professional or Ultimate Certificate Of Authenticity label on it) then you can legally run XP (but only on that computer - but not dual boot!).

Is this encouraging illegal acts?

#7 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:57 PM

I created a forum section under the Project forge section: http://reboot.pro/forum/137/ and some rules to be reminded were placed on the header of the new section.

The hiren related topics (including this one) are now placed on the new section. If one day Microsoft decides to take action against the talks of this section then it will be closed, otherwise remains as the placeholder of hirens discussions.

Being a controversial situation, Hiren is tolerated given its defacto acceptance by the majority of the community. Don't understand this tolerance as a leeway to discuss ISO images of "Windows 7 elite edition" and the such.

From my understanding, it is not legal to host or otherwise make available files from Microsoft and/or other companies without their express consent and the EULA wish is fulfilled to its extent. My goal is to ensure that people have access to information and can also learn about alternatives other than a ready-made ISO image.

If Hiren is popular, is because people nowadays still don't see the current building processes available as intuitive or simple that can be done in two or three clicks without fuss. This means that our own works need to be made simpler, and not just "elite".

With my regards,
Nuno Brito

#8 steve6375

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:11 PM

I created a forum section under the Project forge section: http://reboot.pro/forum/137/ and some rules to be reminded were placed on the header of the new section.

The hiren related topics (including this one) are now placed on the new section. If one day Microsoft decides to take action against the talks of this section then it will be closed, otherwise remains as the placeholder of hirens discussions.

Being a controversial situation, Hiren is tolerated given its defacto acceptance by the majority of the community. Don't understand this tolerance as a leeway to discuss ISO images of "Windows 7 elite edition" and the such.

From my understanding, it is not legal to host or otherwise make available files from Microsoft and/or other companies without their express consent and the EULA wish is fulfilled to its extent. My goal is to ensure that people have access to information and can also learn about alternatives other than a ready-made ISO image.

If Hiren is popular, is because people nowadays still don't see the current building processes available as intuitive or simple that can be done in two or three clicks without fuss. This means that our own works need to be made simpler, and not just "elite".

With my regards,
Nuno Brito

The heading to this topic does not make much sense?
Discussions about the improvement and boot of Hiren's project from CD, DVD or USB. More details about this project are available at Hiren's homepage. In order to conform with our site policies, please refrain from posting links or information in regards to the download of Hiren's ISO image.
Surely this is what you have just done - posted a link where it can be downloaded?

#9 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:14 PM

The heading text is correct, the link displays details about his project. Look inside the site for any downloads of software that is not allowed and then let me know what you find.

#10 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:28 PM

Being a controversial situation, Hiren is tolerated given its defacto acceptance by the majority of the community.

I am missing two things :dubbio::
  • the actual results of the voting about this particular item where the majority of the community expressed this acceptance of the specific item
  • the results of the voting about other similar - though less "famous" - items, which AFAICT could be equally accepted by the "majority" (or equally "not accepted") :unsure:

If Hiren is popular, is because people nowadays still don't see the current building processes available as intuitive or simple that can be done in two or three clicks without fuss. This means that our own works need to be made simpler, and not just "elite".

Well, this is a very interesting point, it should be put in "News", as it is an entirely revolutionary concept:
http://reboot.pro/10906/

:cheers:
Wonko

#11 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:55 PM

We can opt by:

1) Ignore and/or do nothing
2) Complain and/or advert members and developers
3) Regulate

Options 1) and 2)have both been in practice for years and both failed to derive a satisfactory answer to this problem.

I am making available option 3).

Acknowledging the current problems and making available a discussion place is the first step to achieve a non-ambiguous legal position for this project.

#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:22 PM

Acknowledging the current problems and making available a discussion place is the first step to achieve a non-ambiguous legal position for this project.

Actually all would be needed would be a clear, non-ambiguous, set of Policies, and have members follow them.

Just as a reminder, in the past there were:
  • for a given period clear, easily understandable rules AND these rules were enforced EXACTLY as declared AND always interèpreted in the same manner.
  • for a given period rules did not change BUT they were NOT enforced by anyone or - worst then that - were applied here and there in a casual way along everchanging and vague interpretations.
Now there is a whole new set of Policies, very exhaustive and much more correct (from a legal standpoint) than the previous rules, but worded in such a way that most people will have the greatest difficulty in understanding them.

The point is now is HOW EXACTLY these new Policies are to be interpreted and will be applied, like:
  • as they are written
  • along a particular interpretation of them (at the moment not clearly stated) that will be used in a constant manner
  • along particular interpretations of them, with this interpretation changing from day to day, from member to member and case by case

Some time will be needed (since the Policies were changed recently) to understand whether approach #2 or #3 will be used (it is already clear that #1 won't be applied), and, in the case the choice will be on approach #2, if this (with regards to this particular topic) could be summed up in three clear statements:
  • You can talk of Warez
  • You can help other people in using Warez, but not ALL of them, ONLY Hiren's CD (because it's popular) and you should only facilitate it's use (because we feel guilty that Winbuilder is not as easy as it could be)
  • You can NOT tell other people where to get Warez, and this includes the popular Hiren's CD
:cheers:
Wonko

#13 sambul61

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

Several posts in this thread entitled Hiren's v15.1 via USB Won't Boot are definitely off topic here in violation of Policies, but well suited in Forum Policies discussion thread. May I kindly ask the mods to move these posts to that thread and demonstrate that Policies are in fact enforced.

#14 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:02 PM

Hi,

The topic was split from its original location so that we can focus, reflect and discuss this matter if/when deemed necessary.

Unfortunately it is not possible to merge the current discussion onto the other topic created previously by Wonko and referenced by Sambul.


The site policies are evaluated, adapted and decided on a case per case basis when deemed necessary by the administration.

#15 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

The site policies are evaluated, adapted and decided on a case per case basis when deemed necessary by the administration.


Good. :thumbsup:

Just in case of need, I still have a few of these decision dices available ;):
http://reboot.pro/5753/page__st__13
I will gladly send you a complimentary one :), though NO way you can have my crystal ball, constantly out of tune as it might happen to be.

:cheers:
Wonko
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#16 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:20 PM

though NO way you can have my crystal ball, constantly out of tune as it might happen to be.

Hmmm... That crystal ball would surely be handy.. :lol:

#17 sambul61

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:23 PM

I will gladly send you a complimentary one...

So, as usual you failed to manipulate public opinion on the forum, and turned to familiar tactics to manipulate its administration "privately" playing a "Dedicated user" category. :crazy: :lol: I wonder who will carry responsibility for your "crystal balls" - probably "suffusion of blue"?

#18 MedEvil

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Being a controversial situation, Hiren is tolerated given its defacto acceptance by the majority of the community. Don't understand this tolerance as a leeway to discuss ISO images of "Windows 7 elite edition" and the such.

What nonsense is that?
It's illegal, unless the majority uses it anyway? :confused1:
What target group were you probing to determine that the majority uses Hirens?
I did a quicj survey around my family and friends. Noone uses Hirens CD. They don't even know, what the heck a Hiren is!

And if we have such a rule now, give the number of people, who have to be interested in discussing/using a certain Warez, before it becomes Ok to talk about it here.

:cheers:

#19 sambul61

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

I don't really see any Policies inviting to discuss warez here. If you look at the thread dynamics, one girl re-interpreted the topic that way, and then started criticize it. It's called public opinion manipulation. Why - because her own flashed out of nowhere but eagerly enforced (until public requested to remove the girl from the Throne) Rules were abandoned. And of course, in such rush questionable statements may follow that can be easily corrected later.

For example, I edited some of my Tutorials up to hundred times, and keep doing so, because users ask new questions that need to be reflected, and new developments in VHD field happen often prompting to add new material, as well some typos and mistakes are identified in feedback, and some phrases can be shorten or clarified.

#20 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:52 PM

So, as usual you failed to manipulate public opinion on the forum, and turned to familiar attempts to manipulate its administration "privately" playing a "Dedicated user" category. :crazy: :lol: I wonder who will carry responsibility for your "crystal balls" - probably "suffusion of blue"?

I would find quite normal failing to manipulate public opinion, since I didn't even attempt doing it, but maybe it would be possible. :dubbio:

I doubt that manipulating the board Admin would be, or are you hinting that Nuno:
  • is corruptible?
  • additionally that he is so gullible as to be manipulated by offering him such a trifling thing as a decision dice?

Now, IF I had offered him my (priceless) crystal ball, he might have been tempted, but a simple decision dice? :w00t: Comeon .... :)

For the record I did not - in any way - criticize the new policies regarding the topic at hand (though I did express my opinion on other parts of them and in another thread, besides criticizing the particular legalese jargon used), I simply warned a friend about this change and asked publicly how exactly these new Policies will be applied by the Administration of the Board, with particular regards to the quoted underlined parts and to the specific "Hiren's" and more generally "Warez" topic.

Evidently the issue was not completely marginal, as it created - long before the presumed attempt to buy him :whistling: - some reaction from our Board Administrator :worship:.

I did a quicj survey around my family and friends. Noone uses Hirens CD. They don't even know, what the heck a Hiren is!

But are your friends and family also members of the board? :unsure:


:cheers:
Wonko

#21 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:09 PM

Hi MedEvil,

What target group were you probing to determine that the majority uses Hirens? I did a quicj survey around my family and friends.

With due respect to your family, I do not consider them as a target group for our community talks.



And if we have such a rule now, give the number of people, who have to be interested in discussing/using a certain Warez, before it becomes Ok to talk about it here.

There is no formula for such scenario. Senior developers and users keep supporting/requesting this topic in specific, while other topics seem to raise no objection in quick moderation to hide from public sight and suspend involved parties.

This specific subject does not raise a consensus and at the moment there exist no perfect answers. However, Hiren is a unique WindowsPE project by its own merit. Providing a regulated space for discussions helps project supporters to brainstorm and work to find a solution for pending issues.

:cheers:

#22 MedEvil

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

But are your friends and family also members of the board? :unsure:

Are you suggesting that the majority off the mebers of this board, are involved in any illegal activity?
That we have 'organized crime' here?


:cheers:

PS: legal disclaimer
I do not and have never used Hires CD and am not part of the criminal scene at reboot.pro calling themselfs 'The MAJORITY'.

#23 sambul61

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:21 PM

I didn't even attempt doing it, but maybe it would be possible.

I think the problem you try to hide, when offering "privately" your crystal balls, is in the face - you remain "suffusion of blue", while others take hit for your "dices", and it affects them and many users of this forum.

Btw, the majority is AFAIK silent about Hiren.

#24 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:43 PM

PS: legal disclaimer
I do not and have never used Hires CD and am not part of the criminal scene at reboot.pro calling themselfs 'The MAJORITY'.

And it is defamatory to call "criminal" to other members on this community when there is no such legally enforced penalty for discussing this matter (or is wikipedia involved too?).

Since defamation is punishable by law and paraphrasing the previous comment, I deduct you sir inadvertently belong to "The MAJORITY".. :lol: Let's get back to reality.

Chit-chat is nice, however if I see hasty accusations moving around this way, I'm afraid this topic will soon be closed for comments.

#25 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:46 PM

Are you suggesting that the majority off the mebers of this board, are involved in any illegal activity?

No, I guess you misunderstood me.

I have NO idea about what the majority thinks, nor what they are involved in (legal or illegal), Nuno stated that:

Being a controversial situation, Hiren is tolerated given its defacto acceptance by the majority of the community.


But, though I cannot remember - as said - to have ever seen any explicit vote results on the matter, it is clear to me that the talked about majority is relative to the reboot.pro community, hence my question about your family and friends belonging to it.

BTW, if there is crime on this board :dubbio:, it is obviously a "highly disorganized" kind of crime ;) ......

Since I cannot understand Sambul61's comments on my actions (or non-actions), let alone the reasons that originate this continuous flow of senseless hostile remarks, I think it's time to:
Spoiler


:cheers:
Wonko