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Rufus (introduction topic)

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#126 Akeo

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

I am trying to make educated guesses, based on my experience that polls can be biased (especially if the less computer-litterate users are unlikely to take the time to answer a poll, even more so one that would be hosted only on reboot.pro) and are highly dependent on the formulation of the question as well as a clear, concise and understandable presentation of all the factors, which may very much require educating users first.
Save goes with voting for a candidate in a democratic election. You're not supposed to vote for someone because "they belong to the party I always vote for". Instead, you're supposed to try to understand the impact of their proposed policies, with their pros and cons, and make an actual educated decision. Thus a poll on multiboot using G4D would at least need to indicate that, if going for multiboot, one would have to download newer versions on regular basis, that may or may not support the ISOs they want to use, and may even require them becoming knowledgeable about G4D options.

But if you want to create your poll, in whatever shape or form, knock yourself out.

#127 sambul61

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:47 PM

Akeo

It looks like the users are enough educated by this talk to make their choice, and they should be offered the Poll in this thread, so you can weight reality versus fallacy. As I said before, no-one is against Rufus or you in particular, just trying to improve your product, since you claim its free and open source, more important - "evidence" driven.

Speaking of which, using Grub4DOS may actually greatly simplify your task and shorten time - won't even talk about pesky users and their precious Thumbs. In fact, given today's trends, one can probably boot most similar distros with a similar or same G4D menu. All Rufus needs to do is for each new ISO add a folder to the Thumb that contains G4D menu section, the original ISO file, and in some rare cases a few extracted from it files. And for most DOS, Win and Linux incarnations menu samples are already given on the forum.

I was lucky enough yesterday, Sallie shown me how to use Grub4DOS. To tell the truth, she is an IT student, and having a lot of fun teaching me just like you. :lol: So, she told me to download and install EasyBCD (using Free edition link at the bottom), then add NeoGrub (which is renamed Grub4DOS adapted for use with the package) from EasyBCD GUI to my Win7 Boot Menu.

Posted Image

Once I did and clicked Configure, an empty Menu file opened, and she told me to paste this:

# NeoSmart NeoGrub Bootloader Configuration File

# This is the NeoGrub configuration file, and should be located at C:NSTmenu.lst

# Please see the EasyBCD Documentation for information on how to create/modify entries:

# http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBCD/



timeout 15

default 0



title Victoria FDD (Find...RAM)

find --set-root /Victoria4DOS.ima

map --mem /Victoria4DOS.ima (fd0)

map --hook

chainloader (fd0)+1

rootnoverify (fd0)

map --floppies=1

boot



title Seagate SeaTools (RAM)

map --mem (hd0,0)/SeaTools4DOS.ISO (hd32)

map --hook

chainloader (hd32)

boot



title WinPE 3.0 64-bit (Find...RAM)

find --set-root --ignore-floppies /WinPE3.0.iso

map --mem /WinPE3.0.iso (hd32)

map --hook

root (hd32)

chainloader /bootmgr || chainloader /BOOTMGR



title CommandLine

commandline



title Reboot

reboot



title Halt

halt

These are menu sections for 3 random images Sallie gave me from her recent downloads to copy to the disk: WinPE 3.0 and SeaTools for DOS ISOs, and Victoria for DOS 3.52 floppy. Basically, she wanted my advice, what image she needs to pick for Rufus once and for all (you know - the only ONE). :confused1: So, I saved the Menu file, rebooted the PC and...here we go... new Grub4DOS menu option shown up among these pesky Diff VHDs, I clicked on it and saw 3 menu entries for the images. Clicked on the 3rd one, and WinPE 7 shown up seemingly out of nowhere. Guess what, the first thing I started Diskpart from it and created a new VHD... :dubbio:

And then tried another two - revealing experience. If not Sallie, I'd keep mumbling forever "No need for multiboot", and wouldn't even suspect, there are still ISOs left around. These IT girls are getting smarter nowadays. :wub:

#128 Akeo

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:12 PM

It looks like the users are sufficiently educated by the above discussion to make their choice, and they should be offered ijn this thread. A I said before, no-one is against Rufus or you in particular, just trying to improve your product, since you claim its free and open source.

You don't seem to grasp what FOSS means. Especially, it doesn't mean that developers are at the service of whoever shouts the loudest at having their pet feature implemented...

Speaking of that, using Grub4DOS may actually greatly simplify your task and shorten time

Indeed. Get advanced users such as IT students to use EasyBCD for multiboot, since it requires some editing of boot options, and leave Rufus for the 99% of the population that isn't an IT specialist.
I didn't know that EasyBCD existed, so thanks for the info. Now I can redirect how these "pesky" multiboot/advanced-features users towards a commercial product that will suit them best.

I was lucky enough yesterday, Sallie shown me how to use Grub4DOS.

I'm not going to call you a liar, but that sounds an oddly convenient coincidence...

she told me to paste this:
<snip>

Exactly what I want to avoid requiring users to do in Rufus.

revealing experience.

Revealing and very specific experience indeed, that doesn't reflect at all a common usage scenario or even what I anticipate to be a significant usage portion of Rufus.
As I said very early on, people who need multiboot, should be able to handle themselves through existing tools rather than Rufus, and Sallie proved my point. Thank you Sallie!

#129 sambul61

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:17 PM

We are reusing the badblocks code...
Developers are at the service...

EasyBCD was designed specifically for home users like yourself, and its free for them and you. The users don't need to paste Grub4DOS menu anywhere. Instead, Rufus would need to generate a G4D menu section based on the user's ISO analogy with one of typical ISO types, for which Rufus have menu samples - that's your automation in action. In most cases it would be a standard menu, only the ISO file name would change.

I thought it was obvious enough, the Rufus author needs to learn how to walk (or use Grub4DOS) before offering prophecies to such broad audience. :hmm: Amazingly, he isn't brave enough to ask users what they want, but rather prefers to spell fallacy out of his mouse.

AND, especially so called "developers" would never waste their time on such primitive utility, like you said "We" meaning a huge company I guess. :lol:

#130 Akeo

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:23 PM

Well, if users don't need to paste anything, then the Rufus author needs to provide it one way or another, and we're back to the detection/DB/update problem that I already mentioned as a massive drawback for any G4D implementation in Rufus...
Currently, Rufus does not need to provide any scripts, which should ensures much greater genericity than any script based solution, and is a very beneficial feature for users.

#131 Akeo

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:47 PM

(Addon, since you apparently edited your post after I replied)

AND, especially so called "developers" would never waste their time on such primitive utility, like you said "We" meaning a huge company I guess.

If that's the best you have to offer as a counter argument, you may as well proceed with your earlier plan and leave this conversation.
Or am I now supposed to defend the many ways in which what one writes can be willingly misinterpreted?

I use "we" as I see fit. Sometimes, I don't like putting myself forward so much using "I" and therefore I use "we". If the use of "we" can only be associated with some deceptive motive, which apparently we are supposed to have, please don't hesitate to enlighten us, as your previous attempts at doing so were also very amusing to us.

#132 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 08:36 AM

For the record what Sambul61 got through Sallie and EasyBCD was NOT grub4dos, but rather the bastardised version "neogrub" that comes with EasyBCD.

:cheers:
Wonko

#133 Nuno Brito

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:37 AM

This thread is getting awfully monopolized with a grub4dos discussion that became a ping-pong talk.

The author already made his opinion clear. Sambul, would you please continue by personal message or open a new thread for discussing your request?

Thanks.

#134 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:25 AM

Diskette images seem to come in multiple versions:
*uncompressed
* compressed using ZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using GZIP format (supported by Memdisk and GRUB)
* compressed using 7Zip's LZMA format (nowhere supported yet I guess, maybe only in your own tool?)

For the record, there is also the .imz image format which is commonly the one used by Winimage, which is almost - but not quite - compatible with .zip.
A large number of image use however the .exe (SFX made with Winimage).
Just in case, some info is here:
http://reboot.pro/12255/

:cheers:
Wonko

#135 deroby

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:47 AM

For starters : Thanks for this great tool ! (small, user-friendly and (at first sight =) functional)

I had read about this tool in the newsletter and remembered about it when I needed to write the Seatools for DOS ISO to a USB stick this morning.
Sadly, it complains about the 'type' not being supported. Some investigation shows the .ISO contents is based on FreeDOS, so I naively created an 'empty' FreeDOS bootable stick and used 7zip to extract the files from the ISO onto it.
Seems the thing boots just fine, but when I try to run the sole .exe on it, it comes telling me the program cannot be run in DOS mode, weird.
Tips ? (as for now I'll simply burn the thing to an actual CD, it was time for a new coaster anyway =)

PS: I do feel I should chime in and have to say I agree with 99% of your (well formulated!) statements and vision. This program surely fills a gap in the market and I too see no reason to keep adding feature after feature simply because some niche-group might have a use for it. If anyone feels differently about that, let them put their money/coding skills where their mouth is, fork rufus and do it themselves instead of hijacking your (and mine) time repeating already debunked arguments over and over again.

Again, thanks!

#136 Akeo

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:55 AM

For the record, the .imz image format is commonly the one used by Winimage, which is almost - but not quite - compatible with .zip.
Just in case, some info is here:
http://reboot.pro/12255/

Thanks.

Right now, what I would like to find out is:
1) if I were to provide a single Rufus version that embeds FreeDOS always, would there still be much use for IMG -> USB support?
2) Do you guys anticipate much use for floppy creation? Do you see much demand for that still?

With regards to 1), the only advantage I see is that it would allow to use older versions of Rufus with newer FreeDOS releases, in case the embedded FreeDOS version is not up to date. However, I'm not really seeing people hanging to a version of Rufus for too long for various reasons, and with FreeDOS being fairly stable and not needing frequent releases, I also don't see many people requiring the very latest version of FreeDOS. Of course, this may depend on what new and exciting features FreeDOS may offer in the future!
I also plan to keep the Rufus embedded FreeDOS files updated as much as I can. Therefore, if 99% of the IMG -> USB anticipated usage would be with FreeDOS, I'd rather keep it simple and continue using embedded files.

Which leaves us with the matter of floppy creation (either from user provided IMG or embedded), and for which I'd like to find out if there exists a real user need.
Obviously, as time goes by, less and less people are expected to be using floppy drives, so providing such a feature has "planned obsolescence" written all over it. This is why I'd like to know if, from your experience, do you see that feature as an effective need that should be addressed, or more as a "nice to have" feature.

#137 Akeo

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:02 PM

Sadly, it complains about the 'type' not being supported. Some investigation shows the .ISO contents is based on FreeDOS, so I naively created an 'empty' FreeDOS bootable stick and used 7zip to extract the files from the ISO onto it.

OK. Since it didn't detect isolinux, this wasn't the FreeDOS installation ISO. If this was a public ISO, can you give more details, and where you obtained it?

My guess would be that the ISO probably boots into a DOS mode that then adds MSCDEX to access the content, but then, if the content is really DOS compatible, you shouldn't get a "cannot run in DOS mode".
It looks like the exe you tried to run may be a Windows application instead. What is it intended for? Have you tried running it from Windows?

#138 deroby

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:38 PM

OK. Since it didn't detect isolinux, this wasn't the FreeDOS installation ISO. If this was a public ISO, can you give more details, and where you obtained it?


You can find the .ISO file here (about 8Mb), in short it's a low-level disk diagnosis toolbox from Seagate meant to be run from a floppy but they also have a cd-version around.
Seems the .exe I tried is indeed a windows executable and has nothing to do with the actual SeaTools. Duh.

My best guess at this is that the thing somehow boots into an 'image'-file (??) The 'configuration' file in the [BOOT] folder seems to indicate this was created by
Bootable CD Wizard v1.50Z

Copyright (c)2004 by reanimatolog. http://bootcd.narod.ru

So we might already have another layer of 'emulation' going on.. The only 'other' relevant file then seems to be the .ima file in the root, and what do you know, 7zip seems to be able to open it and sure enough in there appear to be the DOS executables and .. oh yes, another .zip file : how many layers of compression can there be ? =)
So, I restarted Rufus, recreated an empty FreeDOS bootable stick, copied ALL the files from the .ima file onto the newly created drive (overwriting any existing files like command.com, just to make sure all files had the right version).

When I booted from the stick I had several error messages complaining the process was unable to read from drive A:. Oh well, I simply [I]gnored those a couple of times and lo and behold, the thing started copying files to its ramdisk, loads a mouse-driver and started the Seatools for DOS program.

Seems I had to dig that extra layer for getting it to work, most certainly not a rufus problem ! :yahoo:

#139 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

Seems I had to dig that extra layer for getting it to work, most certainly not a rufus problem ! :yahoo:

Yes.
You seemingly failed in the common error of mistaking your actual problem (booting that thingy from USB stick) with another one (booting that thingy from USB stick by using Rufus) :ph34r:.
Compare with:
http://homepage.ntlw...red-banana.html

I am pretty sure that if you start a new thread about your problem (as to not aggraviate this already lengthy "introduction" thread with troubleshooting) someone will be able to help you solve the problem (using Rufus or another tool/method). :)

Right now, what I would like to find out is:
1) if I were to provide a single Rufus version that embeds FreeDOS always, would there still be much use for IMG -> USB support?
2) Do you guys anticipate much use for floppy creation? Do you see much demand for that still?

As I see it, you can use a "softer" approach, not unlike many tools are made with embedded files:
provide *something* to detect if a new version of the thing that is already embedded is present in the same folder of the tool and - if yes - use the "new" non-embedded version instead of the embedded one.
Floppy support can be had through any of the already mentioned bootloaders/bootmanagers, I personally do not see it as within the specific Rufus paradigm, but yes, the floppy ("virtual", in the form of an image) is long from being declared death, still of course IMHO.

:cheers:
Wonko

#140 steve6375

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:56 PM

For grub4dos menu you need


title SeaTools ISO

map /SeaToolsDOS223ALL.ISO (0xff)

map --hook

map (0xff)/seatools.ima (fd0)

map --hook

root (fd0)

chainloader /kernel.sys



#141 Akeo

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

You can find the .ISO file here (about 8Mb), in short it's a low-level disk diagnosis toolbox from Seagate meant to be run from a floppy but they also have a cd-version around.

Thanks for the link - glad you solved it.

My best guess at this is that the thing somehow boots into an 'image'-file (??) The 'configuration' file in the [BOOT] folder seems to indicate this was created by

Bootable CD Wizard v1.50Z

Copyright (c)2004 by reanimatolog. http://bootcd.narod.ru

Indeed, the Bootable_NoEmulation is a custom one that runs the bin files from the /BCDW/ directory, and these reference an ini that itself references the \seatools.ima

If there are many BCDW based images floating around, I could probably detect them in Rufus, along with the .ima they reference, and perform automated extraction of the .ima on USB, after adding FreeDOS...

#142 Akeo

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:05 PM

As I see it, you can use a "softer" approach, not unlike many tools are made with embedded files:
provide *something* to detect if a new version of the thing that is already embedded is present in the same folder of the tool and - if yes - use the "new" non-embedded version instead of the embedded one.

One of the issues, as highlighted by the readme.txt here, is that I would prefer picking files from original FreeDOS release archives, and therefore I would have to check quite a few of them at once. Doable, but adds extra complexity and delays.
Else, if I just check the files from a separate repository I maintain, to have them all under one roof, I run the risk of running behind FreeDOS updates and the online check would not serve much purpose.
There's also the problem of ensuring that all these files work well together, which is OK with embedded as there's only possible one combination and I am obviously testing that one, in order to avoid problems such as the one we currently have with recent Syslinux, that broke compatibility with older vesamenu.c32.

Edit: realized that you are talking about current directory rather than online check, which is slightly better, but with quite a few files, it may be easy to have users miss some. 27 files are currently needed, or extra logic needs to be added to figure out if our locale setup can work with the files provided.

Floppy support can be had through any of the already mentioned bootloaders/bootmanagers, I personally do not see it as within the specific Rufus paradigm, but yes, the floppy ("virtual", in the form of an image) is long from being declared death, still of course IMHO.

I'm afraid you're right...

#143 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:07 PM

If there are many BCDW based images floating around ...

Not many. :(
BCDW is an abandoned project since many years and the Author :worship: Alex Kopylov a.k.a. Reanimatolog is seemingly MIA :( since 2004 at least :ph34r:
http://www.911cd.net...opic=18650&st=0
Right now the home page is marked "potentially dangerous" and Wolfgang Brinkmann (that used to keep a mirror) has discontinued it.
Should you need an integral copy let me know and I can provide it (before finally discontinuiong support Wolfgang Brinkmann kept for some time a rared version of the site):
Most files can be obtained through the Wayback Machine:
http://wayback.archi...kmann.de/bcdw/*

Best words ever spent on the death of floppies ;):
http://news.bbc.co.u...ews/2905953.stm

A:las poor floppy, I knew you well



:cheers:
Wonko

#144 Akeo

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:16 PM

Should you need an integral copy let me know and I can provide it

I'm starting to understand why they call you "The Finder"... ;)
If it's discontinued, I think I'll wait to see if there is demand for it. Also, I don't think detection will require, much apart from looking at a few existing BCDW images. The way I see it, it would probably be as simple as checking if a BCWDbcdw.ini exists, then read its content to locate the .ima.

#145 sambul61

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

if the reboot.pro community wants an advanced version of Rufus, I would very much prefer if they do it themselves.

fork rufus and do it themselves

Interesting match in phrases. :dubbio: I already stated its not productive to repeat the same arguments for everyone, and stand by it, so lets move on. The reason Sallie's mini-Tutorial was posted - to give users unfamiliar with the matter a chance to better understand what we're talking about, and may be empower to compare themselves. Besides, some already found downloaded by Sallie ISOs useful, like SeaTools. :)

As to the author's suggestion to our devs to fork Rufus by using our folks' non-destructive approach to original images, its a different subject that was never discussed as he invited, and IMHO is not a good idea. Looking at majority of Open Source projects, forks are usually made from some packages that are proven to be popular among broad user categories, downloaded in thousands, and overflown with new ideas, or abandoned. Rufus at this stage doesn't meet any of these criteria: its approach was not proven yet to be useful, the tool is not known today to be popular, the author arguments were never validated in practice, and the image extraction idea long outlived itself, being abused for years - given new non-destructive USB tools developed on this forum, it sounds DOA now. There seems to be really nothing to fork here from. I'm not bashing, its just plain reality, and of course there may be other views. :hmm:

Actually this forum filled with threads were people ask how to boot an image without destruction - many more. If there is a need for another ISO-to-USB converter that uses non-destructive approach to source images, it should be a brand new tool that would draw from experience of already existing similar tools presented even on this forum and quite popular. It doesn't have to be Grub4DOS based, it was just an example how it may work, but a similar purpose bootloader. No need for complex GUI or many features - simple to use, but employing more advanced techniques internally, and allowing user to grow. And if popular, it should make the name for its own developer, not the developer of Rufus - it sounds fare to me. :)

#146 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:10 PM

The word "squelch" has misterously disappeared from this page :w00t:, just as I had learned a new, interesting use for it. :dubbio:


:cheers:
Wonko

#147 sambul61

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:18 PM

EasyBCD (uses) NOT grub4dos, but rather the bastardised version "neogrub" that comes with EasyBCD.

There are numerous examples on this forum, where similar and more accurate words were correctly applied to YOU, but its now against forum rules. Need links - I wouldn't do it in this thread to be fare to readers, though I see familiar provocation targeting individuals you think depend on you. :thumbdown: And the fact you accused EasyBCD developer (who AFAIK is also a member and active contributor to this forum) in "bastardizing" Grub4DOS has no merit - he may elect to deal with you legally for damaging his business and would be right doing so, if they have private agreements with G4D devs. You don't hold any rights to these products, and interfere (troll publicly) illegally.

#148 AdmV0rl0n

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:32 PM

I think the tool is very nice indeed. The world is full of complex multi tool methods for just making things boot. Any tools that offer simplified methods are welcome, and I suspect that ideal is attractive no matter what technical level the end user might reside at.
My mailbox has been filled over the past days with the back and forth, some good, some adversarial. The signal to noise ratio is off putting - and makes me consider carefully participation if my mail box was to be flooed on a larger scale.
Therefore, I'd ask everyone to be considerate in their postings.

#149 sambul61

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:37 PM

I think I'm done with hot impressions part, and agree with you.

But that's me...of course if the author or someone like this guy wants to start all over again - I'll have to reply to be polite. :)

#150 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:51 PM

... he may elect to deal with you legally for damaging his business, if they have private agreements with G4D devs.

Sure he may well do that, no matter whether he has a private agreement with the good G4D guys or not.

You don't hold any rights to these products, and interfere illegally.

Never said to have any, and I am expressing an opinion, which is free.

There are as I see it two possibilities, either the EasyBCD Author :worship: created a new program on the base of grub4dos, and thus he should comply fully with:
http://www.gnu.org/l...odifiedVersions
http://www.gnu.org/l...rcePostedPublic

or, he uses an UNmodified Open Source project and does not change it's name, nor misrepresents it as a different program from the original:
http://neosmart.net/...ay/EBCD/NeoGrub

For the record current EasyBCD, version 2.1.2 includes the UNmodified binaries of grldr and grldr.mbr from grub4dos-0.4.5b-2011-11-27.
http://code.google.c...-27.7z&can=2&q=

:cheers:
Wonko





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