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Hosting a PE to run over the internet - legal?


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#26 sambul61

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:31 PM

For the record, I prefer pears. :)

Even if some code is downloaded, the host server doesn't aim or offer means to distribute it, but rather assists in its remote use from the host. :mega_shok:

#27 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:41 PM

OT :ph34r:, but not much ;), a nice quote from the Megaupload indictment:

On or about July 9, 2008, VAN DER KOLK sent an e-mail to a third- party, entitled “funny chat-log.” In the e-mail, VAN DER KOLK copied the text of a previous online conversation between himself and ORTMANN, in which VAN DER KOLK had stated, “we have a funny business . . . modern days pirates :)” ORTMANN responded, “we’re not pirates, we’re just providing shipping services to pirates :)


:1st:

:cheers:
Wonko

#28 Icecube

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:45 PM

Sites that allow booting Linux distros straight from the internet:

http://www.netboot.me/
http://boot.kernel.org/ ==> not operational atm, but will hopefully be back soon ==> mirror of the site: http://boot.rit.edu/index.html

#29 MedEvil

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:45 PM

If you steal an apple but you don't eat it you didn't stole it? :dubbio:

If he takes an apple and leaves the shop without paying for it and eats it, it is theft. If he eats it in the shop, wihout paying, it's petty larceny of food, which has a far less severe punishment.

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#30 MedEvil

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:56 PM

btw. If "providing shipping services to pirates" should be ruled to be illegal. USA will have a huge problem on their hands.

They helped lots of dictators, like Saddam, into office, so they could be held responsible by all victim.

:cheers:

#31 saddlejib

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:59 PM

Anyway back to reboot.pro and this
http://forum.plop.at...hp?topic=1070.0
Bomz as far as I can mediate the translation in this topic, due to translation problems (cyrillic deutsche english) bomz thought that you had to write the cards eeprom and not the bios rom as described in plop.Thou through endevour succeded in writing the eeprom with plop and made it work i.e hijacked the bios adding plops usb and cd drivers.
My question is has this been covered by reboot pro before
i.e Extended bios by eeprom ?

#32 steve6375

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:05 PM

Sites that allow booting Linux distros straight from the internet:

http://www.netboot.me/
http://boot.kernel.org/ ==> not operational atm, but will hopefully be back soon ==> mirror of the site: http://boot.rit.edu/index.html

Great! Thanks for the netboot.me link. I added the ISO to my grub4dos menu and ran it under QEMU - works great! Booted to live Slitaz desktop and viewed this page on FireFox!

#33 Icecube

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:09 PM

Great! Thanks for the netboot.me link. I added the ISO to my grub4dos menu and ran it under QEMU - works great! Booted to live Slitaz desktop and viewed this page on FireFox!

You can even add your own custom configuration to netboot.me:
http://www.netboot.me/help#create

#34 sambul61

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:14 PM

Wonko,

Such talk often tends to get overblown, mostly by people who are just "talkers". Megaupload made a huge profit from such activity, which is not the case discussed here. All IP rights talk is about financial profit and loss, not abstract ideas.

In fact, it might be the right move to have them closed, there should be some balance in every system. No need to fear of every smallish bush though... Before someone can prosecute, or even worse, punish Wonko for stealing that apple, they need to be convinced and make others convinced its something worse doing. I'd personally buy you some pears instead given your claimed age and Finder status. :)

#35 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:19 PM

If he takes an apple and leaves the shop without paying for it and eats it, it is theft. If he eats it in the shop, wihout paying, it's petty larceny of food, which has a far less severe punishment.

Read up a definition of petty larceny, whether the apple is eaten or not it deosn't make any difference.
http://legal-diction...m/petty+larceny
An apple has been stolen (taken away from the shop, taken away from the shop and eaten or eaten in the shop).
The culprit may be accused of petty larceny and eventually go to jail (or pay a fine) for this.
If the apple is an Apple, it is then grand larceny. (and if the Apple was eaten the culprit will go to the hospital first thing ;))


:cheers:
Wonko

#36 steve6375

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:22 AM

Yeah - let's go ahead and host WinPE on reboot.pro - I mean, what can MS possibly do about it...

The Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) is a United States bill introduced by U.S. Representative Lamar S. Smith (R-TX) to expand the ability of U.S. law enforcement to fight online trafficking in copyrighted intellectual property and counterfeit goods. Provisions include the requesting of court orders to bar advertising networks and payment facilities from conducting business with infringing websites, and search engines from linking to the sites, and court orders requiring Internet service providers to block access to the sites. The law would expand existing criminal laws to include unauthorized streaming of copyright material, imposing a maximum penalty of five years in prison.

Maybe we can all visit Nuno in prison...

#37 MedEvil

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:25 AM

@Wonko
:lol: Just wanted to look up, what the punishment for the two different offenses are and "Mundraub" doesn't exist anymore. Since 1975!
How time flies, if you're having fun! :rofl:

:cheers:

#38 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:41 AM

@Wonko
:lol: Just wanted to look up, what the punishment for the two different offenses are and "Mundraub" doesn't exist anymore. Since 1975!
How time flies, if you're having fun! :rofl:


But, on the other hand, "Scrumping" has been the oldest crime recorded (and VERY severely punished at the time):
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scrump

And copying is not theft :dubbio:
http://indiworks.wor...le-and-h-264-3/
at least as much as piracy is not theft:
Posted Image

:cheers:
Wonko

#39 sambul61

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:39 AM

Yeah - let's go ahead and host WinPE on reboot.pro - I mean, what can MS possibly do about it.


The question was, would MS even be interested to look at it from enforcement prospective, even less demand prosecution? It they do, one would receive a letter from them alleging why they deem such activity illegal, which regardless may or may not be the fact depending on many things. Who knows, they might even get interested in such unusual promotion of their deeply scaled down OS demo. A basic WinPE is not a practical OS replacement, and its free, meaning MS doesn't offer to sell it to consumers for a fee, and can't loose money on WinPE Network boot. In fact, many packages are offered by their developers for free to consumers, but for a fee to businesses.

SOPA stopped after unprecedented protests.

Posted Image

But lets threaten these fools anyway... :buehehe:

If you believe that hosting WinPE for network boot is illegal, prove it, and lets move on to what is legal.

The next question would then be, is it lawful to modify WinPE using tools like WinBuilder, or distribute such tools and modified PEs? And if it seems not, had anyone went to jail for this? MS ain't stupid, they see the difference btw having fan while promoting their soft, and making big bucks on its piracy. :beer:

#40 TheHive

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 08:36 AM

Interesting!

#41 steve6375

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 09:53 AM

WinPE definitely has copyright, distribution and licence restrictions. You can't just start providing a download and wait till you get an email from your ISP saying they have received a complaint and have now blocked your site!
Maybe we should ask MS to provide an iPXE host http server which hosts all versions of WinPE Repair images for OS repairs (Vista, Win7, SVR2K8, 32&64 etc). That would be of great benefit to people who have lost their recovery DVD and cannot repair their OS, and at the same time be very difficult for anyone to misuse as they won't actually have a 'copy' of it.

#42 MedEvil

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 11:16 AM

The problem with WinPE and some other prgrams is it's completely unlogical set of restrictions.

- one can download it for free
- one can use it for free
- but you can not give it to someone else, he has to download himself

If you break the rules, you will have to pay a fine. For what???
M$ isn't a government, they can't give you a fine for offenses against their law (Eula).
The best they can do is prove that you caused them to loose money and therefore have to compensate them.

Its free to download, its free to use, very hard to convince a judge that they have suffered a loss by anyone redistributing it.

On the other hand this is law and law has very little to do with common sense. Especialy if one has the cloud to swing judges.

:cheers:

#43 sambul61

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:06 PM

I still doubt that network boot is equivalent to redistribution. Until MS or a law of the country where server is located explicitly says it is, one can take it as it is not. But again, Megaupload distributed millions of deemed illegal (ordinary paid for) copies, not just one free title which network boot (not distribution by download) is not stated to be illegal in any known document. And again, the 1st question any court or enforcement office would ask - "did you notify the alleged violator about suspecting violation of your IP rights"? And that's also part of the law - both existing and set aside. One MUST notify an alleged violator first, instead of immediately seeking enforcement. And that's how its done in practice, being also very cost effective for all sides.

#44 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:19 PM

@Medevil
JFYI, though I know how it will be of no use and this poor horse will be beaten to death over and over :(, this has not really much to do with the Eula, and a lot to do with Copyright Laws.
The Eula, like it or not, leverages on Rights that are granted to the intellectual property holder by Copyright Laws.
Deja-vu:
http://reboot.pro/13973/

:cheers:
Wonko

#45 MedEvil

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:03 PM

@Wonko
You and i have a differnt view on this. Imo, you look at it from the point, that leagal is, what is not written to be illegal, i see it from the point, legal is, what i can do without getting legal problems.

Distributing a 20 year old software without holding copyright, for instance, is still illegal, yet can be done without anyone caring.

But like you said, we had that topic before and before and before. ;)


@sambul61
Making a WinPE available via iPXE, isn't the same as distributing, imo as well, but more similar to lending your book to someone else for reading, who has to give it back afterwards.

This page deals with copyright and it's application to libraries. http://fairuse.stanf...3_07_minow.html
Which imo, would apply to us as well.

:cheers:

#46 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:42 PM

You and i have a differnt view on this. Imo, you look at it from the point, that leagal is, what is not written to be illegal, i see it from the point, legal is, what i can do without getting legal problems.

Distributing a 20 year old software without holding copyright, for instance, is still illegal, yet can be done without anyone caring.

Well, words do have a meaning, illegal is something that is not legal.

If you are not prosecuted/sued/jailed/flogged/crucifixed :w00t:/whatever for something illegal you do, it does NOT mean that what you did was legal, it means that your action carried no consequences to you.

http://www.imdb.com/...es?qt=qt0471984

Brian: What will they do to me?
Ben the Prisoner: Oh you'll probably get away with crucifixion.
Brian: CRUCIFIXION?
Ben the Prisoner: Yeah, first offense.


Then it is not anymore about stealing apples, but rather in stealing apples noone will ever claim property upon or stealing apples and not getting caught (please read as running faster than the peasant ;)).

In a nutshell:
  • stealing apples is not legal, i.e. it is illegal.
  • you are perfectly free to try and steal apples :)
  • if you decide to steal apples, knowing that it is not legal, it would be smarter (from your viewpoint) to steal apples AND avoid consequences (but you will be a thief anyway, the difference is only between being a dumb thief and a smart one)

So, the topic is not anymore about legality, but rather about chances to get caught and/or suffer from consequences of carrying an illegal action or about which possible consequence the illegal action may cause, or, if you prefer the question is more pragmatical than the original:

Is this legal?

and it rather becomes:

Can I do this - no matter if legal or illegal - and get away with it?


Wonko approves of pragmatical questions. :smiling9:


:cheers:
Wonko
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#47 MedEvil

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 03:59 PM

You present a very good case and i wholeheartedly agree with everything.

Just one thing to add.
There's a lawyer/author, who wrote a very witty book about german laws.
In that book he presents common everyday scenes, that we're all familiar with and points out, which laws we break, while thinking of behaving in a perfectly legal way.
Some laws are not enforced anymore for over 100 years, yet they are still valid.

What would you call breaking a law, that is no longer enforced? legal / ilegal?
I have a hard time even understanding, that it is legal to have valid laws not enforced. ;)


:cheers:

#48 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:33 PM

You present a very good case and i wholeheartedly agree with everything.

But you insist on stating (wrongly IMHO) that "prohibited by law but law not enforced"="legal", while more simply "prohibited by law but law not enforced"="still illegal but no consequences for carrying action".
So, again, you may do that without consequences, but it will never become legal until the law prohibiting it will be changed as to allow it.

:cheers:
Wonko

#49 MedEvil

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:54 PM

Just checking, if we're on the same page, about that.

Which bears the question, why governments choose to keep the laws valid, but not enforce them, instead of deleting the law.

Or differently put, what interest does governments have, to make sure everyone breaks the law?

:cheers:

#50 sambul61

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:18 PM

So, again, you may do that without consequences, but it will never become legal until the law prohibiting it will be changed as to allow it.

What consequences you're talking about, if its far not evident that booting WinPE over network is illegal in any country? And if MS believes it is (which I don't know), they would certainly be required by law to notify you first about the suspected violation, which is the right thing to do, since you might not be aware of it.

Talking more broadly about law and justice, Justice and Legal / Illegal are only remotely related terms. Justice is a philosophical term about social equality in enforcing a Fair Set of society rules. "Justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics; justice is the act of being just and/or fair".

Posted Image

Law in a certain country on the other hand is a snapshot of current power sharing, its content is affected by what groups control power at the moment in that society, it reflects interests largely of these groups, and may have very remote if any rational based on "Justice for all" concept. That's why many laws overtime become unenforceable, i.e. de-facto stayed. Because they no longer reflect current interests of power brokers. More, some laws historically led their main enforcers to a Guillotine just a few years down the road, so remote they were to true Justice as perceived by the majority. That's also why most religions claim to establish Fair Rules and Proper Conduct baselines, not recognizing it being fully reflected in today's law whatever it is, because they address society as a whole, its every individual regardless of what social group s/he belongs to, which may not be the factual case with law and its enforcement in some countries.

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