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Install Windows 7's bootloader in a Windows XP system


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#26 sambul61

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:08 PM

MobaLiveCD it's an OPTIONAL software that you use to test if your drive is booting properly

How exactly one can do that?

#27 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:30 PM

How exactly one can do that?


MobaliveCD/USB is nothing but a "shell" to QEMU, see here:
http://reboot.pro/9688/

:cheers:
Wonko

#28 sambul61

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:38 PM

Even in that scenario it seems hardly possible to test drive in MobaLiveCD, if currently online WinXP would boot properly after adding Win7 Bootloader to it (for no particular reason...), since its volume would be locked and can't be attached to QEMU. :dubbio:

For test booting other things like ISOs and VHDs current version of free Windows Virtual PC is a lot faster, simpler for novices and generally better piece of code.

#29 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 02:07 PM

For test booting other things like ISOs and VHDs current version of free Windows Virtual PC is a lot faster, simpler for novices and generally better piece of code.

As always the "better" is only in the eye of the beholder.

Actually, and just for the record, QEMU based solutions like MobaliveCD are smaller and portable, which is a good thing, and UNLIKE Virtual PC (that may need dedicated drivers) QEMU uses "standard emulated hardware" and can use a RAW image instead of a VHD (but can use the VHD as well).
More generally, expecially in the first phases of booting QEMU is normally more "similar" to real hardware than Virtual PC, at the cost of being usually slower.

:cheers:
Wonko

#30 iONik

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 05:57 PM

MobaLiveCD it's an OPTIONAL software that you use to test if your drive is booting properly


... and apparently it doesn't work too well.

also: did you come up with a section to add to your tutorial.... "Reverting back to the original boot configuration"??? Otherwise, your tutorial is a dangerous proposition for all who venture to try it, even if it be for a good reason.

Edited by iONik, 07 January 2012 - 06:03 PM.


#31 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:26 PM

... and apparently it doesn't work too well.

Have you actually tested it? :unsure:

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#32 iONik

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:05 PM

Have you actually tested it? :unsure:

:cheers:
Wonko


If, following the tutorial instructions, constitutes testing it, then yes I did and it failed to open with MobaLiveCD as suggested using the instructions.
Actually, when I read sambul61's post, trying to load the same OS in a virtual environment while it is also running normally seems troublesome. Perhaps this is why I was getting errors?

#33 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 08:23 PM

I cannot swear with MobaLiveCD, but recent QEMU versions (and BTW QEMU Manager) running under XP can initiate booting from PhisicalDrive0 allright.
Which OS are you running?

:cheers:
Wonko

#34 sambul61

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:35 PM

Recent QEMU versions (and BTW QEMU Manager) running under XP can initiate booting from PhisicalDrive0 allright.

This is dangerous to run the same system volume on real PC and inside a VM running on that PC, and was purposely blocked in current OS versions and popular VMs. I'd stay away from such propositions, especially given to unexperienced users. :thumbdown:

#35 iONik

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 10:45 PM

I cannot swear with MobaLiveCD, but recent QEMU versions (and BTW QEMU Manager) running under XP can initiate booting from PhisicalDrive0 allright.
Which OS are you running?

:cheers:
Wonko


I was running XP SP3 Pro.

--------------------------------------

I am staying away from this particular method of booting. I would, however, like a nice bootloader that can boot to XP, 7, Linux, and a rescue image like Hiren's. Any suggestion that could fill those shoes, sambul61.

#36 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:54 AM

@sambul61
Well, noone ever talked of running a system in the VM, only to check if the initial booting part could work.

And of course it is dangerous :ph34r:, like most of the things we like to do :w00t:, but it is also "fun" :).

Life is "trying things to see if they work".


But of course, kids, matches, etc. don't go together very welll..... :whistling:

@iONik
I just tested the feature with MobaliveCD and it works perfectly :thumbsup:, if you still want to play, we can try and understand why it didn't work for you :dubbio: (I tested it in XP SP2, but that should NOT make any difference :unsure:).


:cheers:
Wonko

#37 sambul61

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 01:46 PM

May be you will undertake such a burden to also explain, why a user should install Win7 Bootmgr onto a WinXP system? Did you also install it? :dubbio:

Only then a typical PC user would consider endangering the only system he has by playing matches with it in MobaliveCD. :superstition:

#38 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:41 PM

May be you will undertake such a burden to also explain, why a user should install Win7 Bootmgr onto a WinXP system? Did you also install it? :dubbio:

Not at all, you asked HOW it was possible:

How exactly one can do that?

I told you how it is perfectly possible, nothing more, nothing less.

Only then a typical PC user would consider endangering the only system he has by playing matches with it in MobaliveCD. :superstition:

How do you know it's the only system the typical PC user has? :dubbio:

In any case, following *any* tutorial or doing *any* experiment without having available a "way back" is IMHO pure folly :ph34r:.

About the utility to have BOOTMGR instead of NTLDR as "main" bootmanager, it is just the usual "everyone has his/her own opinion" matter, personally I find it one of the most unuseful settings one can have.

IF I would decide to do the same as the OP posted about, I would use a completely different method/approach, BOTH for installing/configuring the thingies AND for testing them, but again, everyone has his/her own ways.

:cheers:
Wonko

#39 sambul61

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:57 PM

Let me disagree, having Win7 Bootmgr as "main" instead of NTLDR can be extremely useful, as a user can find from Test new OS Releases on VHD, and many other sources, in particular for service or test running Win7 & WES & ThinPC & WinPE from VHDs on older PCs without affecting legacy OS installed on the host, giving the user a chance to try and make an educated choice on installing new OS, or fix his old PC.

I was just stressing above that without explaining the purpose of such mod it makes a little sense to suggest a user to do it, especially in a Tutorial. But the mod itself in good hands adds plenty of new opportunities to explore. :) And EasyBCD is the classic introductory tool (of my choice) to the subject of BCD and broader boot topics. :thumbsup:

#40 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:16 PM

Well, as I see it, there is no reason to make BOOTMGR the "main" one (if you are running a normal XP and it's NTLDR), loading from NTLDR either grub4dos (and from it BOOTMGR) or directly from NTLDR a Vista :ph34r: or 7 bootsector invoking BOOTMGR is easy, does not change anything in the "normal" booting of the PC, it is simply an added option from the "main" "standard" bootmanager which you have already installed (NTLDR).
So, IMHO having BOOTMGR as "additional" or "optional" is safer and provides the user with the same "features" you just listed.

:cheers:
jaclaz

#41 sambul61

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:39 PM

It may be a valid option too. How exactly would you suggest to do it? Leave XP MBR and PBR intact, add Grub4DOS to Boot.ini, BCD and Bootmgr to root, add Bootmgr to Grub4DOS Menu (section example)?

#42 Michele13

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:42 PM

Well, this package does not remove ntldr but it simply install itself next to ntldr. WinXP can't boot up directly with bootmgr, Win7's bootloader chainload ntldr that in its turn boots windows xp. I would install bootmgr if I want to make a multiboot system, as it is easy to menage thanks to EasyBCD. I want to excuse with the users who found problems using my tutorial and if I can I will help you so don't be angry with me :cold: BTW I want to clarify that the package that i've made was tested. I REMOVED my bootmgr (I deleted the bootmgr files too), uninstalled EasyBCD and then I run my package to test if it works. I never share something If I see that it does not work as expected.

#43 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 05:12 PM

It may be a valid option too. How exactly would you suggest to do it? Leave XP MBR and PBR intact, add Grub4DOS to Boot.ini, BCD and Bootmgr to root, add Bootmgr to Grub4DOS Menu (section example)?

Yep :), that would be the simpler/safer way, see diddy's grub4dos guide:
http://diddy.boot-la...ws.htm#windows1
http://diddy.boot-la.../boot.htm#vista


A menu.lst entry for grub4dos to load BOOTMGR can be as simple as:

title BOOTMGR
chainloader /bootmgr

the root should already be Active partition.
Or, to make sure (first partition of first hard disk):

title BOOTMGR
root (hd0,0)
chinloader /bootmgr

or:

title BOOTMGR
find --set-root /bootmgr
chinloader /bootmgr


The BCD is hardcoded to \boot\BCD if I recall correctly, so you should have in root:
  • BOOT.INI
  • BOOTMGR
  • grldr
  • menu.lst
  • NTLDR
  • \boot\BCD
    h
:cheers:
Wonko

#44 iONik

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 05:09 AM

Well, this package does not remove ntldr but it simply install itself next to ntldr. WinXP can't boot up directly with bootmgr, Win7's bootloader chainload ntldr that in its turn boots windows xp. I would install bootmgr if I want to make a multiboot system, as it is easy to menage thanks to EasyBCD. I want to excuse with the users who found problems using my tutorial and if I can I will help you so don't be angry with me :cold: BTW I want to clarify that the package that i've made was tested. I REMOVED my bootmgr (I deleted the bootmgr files too), uninstalled EasyBCD and then I run my package to test if it works. I never share something If I see that it does not work as expected.


O.K. Then please give me a step-by step tutorial on how to remove everything that was installed, or changed.

Thanks

#45 Michele13

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 01:17 PM

O.K. Then please give me a step-by step tutorial on how to remove everything that was installed, or changed.

Thanks


Are you able to use LiveCD's? I'll explain how to remove the bootloader and restore WinXP's bootloader:

1.Start EasyBCD
2.Go to BCD Deployment
3.Click on Install the Windows XP Bootloader to MBR
4.Click Write MBR


See the Screenshot here (I Wonder Why I could not use the image embedding feature in this topic)

http://dl.dropbox.co...226/EasyBCD.bmp

Then start a LiveCD and delete the Boot folder and the bootmgr file from the hardisk :)

#46 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 03:13 PM

Michele13

JFYI, There is NO such thing as a "Windows XP Bootloader" in the MBR.
http://reboot.pro/16029/page__st__87
http://reboot.pro/16029/page__st__92
http://thestarman.na...m/mbr/W7MBR.htm
http://thestarman.na...W7MBR.htm#multi



The MBR code of 2k/XP, Vista :ph34r: and Windows 7 (or DOS/FreeDOS for that matters) is a "generic" code that chainloads the bootsector (or PBR or VBR) of the Active (Primary) partition in the MBR partition table.
In this sense they are perfectly equivalent, the only issue is that if you have a Windows7 AND you use the specific BitLocker feature of Windows 7, otherwise you won't ever be able to appreciate the difference between the codes.
It is the bootsector (or PBR or VBR) code that either invokes NTLDR or BOOTMGR (which are the actual bootloaders).

EasyBCD uses WRONG terms, though the guys that make it do know the exact ones:
http://neosmart.net/...or-not-the-mbr/

Most probably what it does is to use the newish bootsect.exe from Windows 7 with the /nt52 and /mbr switches.
The /nt52 switch will affect the bootsector ONLY.
The /mbr will also affect the mbr (but the actual change needed is in the bootsector).

The /mbr switch was added later to the existing XP/Vista bootsect.exe set of commands:
http://technet.micro...177(WS.10).aspx

http://technet.micro...577(WS.10).aspx

:cheers:
Wonko

#47 sambul61

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 03:21 PM

Then the term used at present sounds correct - it affects both. :)

#48 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 04:00 PM

Then the term used at present sounds correct - it affects both. :)

No, the bootloader is either NTLDR or BOOTMGR.

Changing the bootsector (and NOT the MBR code) changes the name of the actual invoked bootloader, NOT the bootloader, which is NEVER installed anywhere, it simply needs to be in the root of the partition.

There are nice visual illustrations here:
http://www.multiboot.../multiboot.html


:cheers:
Wonko

#49 iONik

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Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:56 PM

Are you able to use LiveCD's? I'll explain how to remove the bootloader and restore WinXP's bootloader:

1.Start EasyBCD
2.Go to BCD Deployment
3.Click on Install the Windows XP Bootloader to MBR
4.Click Write MBR


See the Screenshot here (I Wonder Why I could not use the image embedding feature in this topic)

http://dl.dropbox.co...226/EasyBCD.bmp

Then start a LiveCD and delete the Boot folder and the bootmgr file from the hardisk :)


Have you tried this yourself?
Also: Once I follow this procedure, can I simply uninstall EasyBCD? I say this because I have already done what you are suggesting, but I did not uninstall EasyBCD, thus, there are Files and Folders on the root drive that were never there prior to installation.
Should I uninstall Easy BCD, then delete the boot folder and the bootmgr file?

I never tried rebooting using the Win7 bootloader, therefore do not know if it would have worked or not. After I create an Acronis Image, and before I restore an older image (something I had intended to do anyways) I may retry your totorial and reboot into the Win7 bootmgr. If it fails there is no harm, but if it works, then ther is an issue with MobaliveCD's exicution...

Thanks for your input.

#50 Michele13

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:26 PM

Yes I Tried Myself! I've done this steps to remove bootmgr and it worked. anyway after you restored Windows XP bootloader you can install easybcd and you can delete the boot folder in C: with the bootmgr file (you can also delete the NST folder that is created by EasyBCD to place various files needed for boot. If you can't remove the boot folder because it is used by another system do not go in panic. To delete these files you can use unlocker. The deletion of these files WILL NOT affect the boot of the system so your pc will continue to boot into XP as usual :)




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