38 replies to this topic

[deckoff]

I read here and there about installing XP with flash drive.
I found at least a couple of tutorials which do more or less this:
1) Extract the content of the XP CD
2) Prepare a USB which can boot and start grub4dos.
3) A GUI tool is used to copy the XP CD files to the USB and "prepare" the XP installation.
4) A menu.lst with two entries is provided, for the first and second part of the process. The file referred in menuentry is with different name and is most probably created by the tool used and the name is tool-specific.
So , my question is, what exactly happens during step 3? Can it be manually reproduced. I do this on linux machine , just for fun
I refer to this tutorials:
http://www.cooleywir...t/multiboot.htm
http://www.intowindo...ndows-7-and-xp/

Edited by deckoff, 03 December 2011 - 11:44 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

So , my question is, what exactly happens during step 3? Can it be manually reproduced. I do this on linux machine , just for fun

Hmmm.

I refer to this tutorials:
http://www.cooleywir...t/multiboot.htm
http://www.intowindo...ndows-7-and-xp/

If you want fresh milk, you should get it from the cow as opposed to a supermarket .
Here:
http://www.msfn.org/...ndows-from-usb/
also command line tools

and this is more or less what actually happens in step #3 summed up and reproducible even manually and from a Linux OS, and even WITHOUT using grub4dos:
http://www.msfn.org/...ut-extra-tools/

Remember that when you take the RED pill, you may find that the rabbit hole is very, very deep :
http://www.msfn.org/...or-xp-from-usb/


Wonko

[deckoff]

Taking the red pill and going for a dive in the hole
Thank you, that is what i needed, I have half a Sunday to try.
PS Bad cows might kick you during the milking process

[Wonko the Sane]

PS Bad cows might kick you during the milking process

There is an Italian proverb (actually tuscan) that goes:

Non ha il palio se non chi corre.

which more or less equates to:

You cannot get the prize (for the race) unless you run.

Wonko

[deckoff]

This is a report of my success/failure on this topic:
1) WintoFlash seems to be the most recent method to auto-do this I failed to create running USBs with the links i provided. I use some of the ideas, though.
2) Trying to install the manually created XP install, the hard -disks of the target machine is not seen. It might be because of a Grub4dos issue, or issue of the machine or issue of the installation cd:
This is my menu.lst file:

timeout 30

default 1

title 1) WinXP Text Mode Setup - Install Windows XP

chainloader (hd0,0)/bootmgr

title 2) Start Windows XP / GUI Setup from HD1

root (hd0,0)

chainloader (hd0,0)/ntldr

3) Wintoflash follows this method more or less(of course)
http://www.msfn.org/...ut-extra-tools/
(of course) but also it copies ntldr from the same i386 folder and creates its own custon boot.ini in root dir. It is done to bypass the need for doing the 5-8 steps
This is the boot.ini file:

[Boot Loader]

Timeout=30

Default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)WINDOWS

[Operating Systems]

C:$WIN_NT$.~BTBOOTSECT.DAT = "1st, text mode setup (Boot from flash again after finished)"

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)WINDOWS="2nd, GUI mode setup, continue setup + 1st start of Windows" /fastdetect

C: = "---> DEBUG, in case of HAL.DLL or NTOSKRNL.EXE not found errors <---"

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(2)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 1 partition 2" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(3)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 1 partition 3" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(4)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 1 partition 4" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(1)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 2 partition 1" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(2)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 2 partition 2" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(3)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 2 partition 3" /fastdetect

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(4)WINDOWS="Debug boot rDisk 2 partition 4" /fastdetect

The valid entry should be selected.

C:$WIN_NT$.~BTBOOTSECT.DAT = "1st, text mode setup (Boot from flash again after finished)"

is not valid and needed in this setup, as BOOTSECT.DAT as I could not find the BOOTSECT.DAT file on the setup CD.
I cannot check all the info I provided, since the setup does not recognize my hard disk (only the USB) I suspect that might be a CD issue (mine is kind of random, lets say, at best:)
PS First time I tried with a USB split in three: one for grub4dos , one for XP and one for 7. I got 0x00007b error, I suspect this was due to invalid entry in txtsetup.sif.
Most probably :

BootPath = "I386"

SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk0Partition1"

should be edited, although I tried changing the Partition1 entry, I still got this error. Due to the fact that all partitions were primary, probably Harddisk0 has to be modified???Maybe???
Any comments and corrections are welcome

Edited by deckoff, 05 December 2011 - 12:04 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

Wintoflash - with some offence intended - is a tool that was born AFTER the main findings were posted on MSFN and coincidentally uses a very similar approach, I would call that converging evolution of the species.
I personally do NOT recommend it.
JFYI:
http://www.msfn.org/...orp-wintoflash/
http://www.msfn.org/...n-xp-with-win7/

About grub4dos check if - by any chance - your issue is connected to this one :
http://reboot.pro/15956/
but I don't think so.

Using a "random" CD might indeed be an issue, expecially if it has been modified/nlited.

I doubt that you will be ever able to start an XP by chainloading bootmgr (unless of course you rename ether SETUPLDR.BIN or NTLDR to BOOTMGR)

timeout 30
default 1
title 1) WinXP Text Mode Setup - Install Windows XP
chainloader (hd0,0)/bootmgr
title 2) Start Windows XP / GUI Setup from HD1
root (hd0,0)
chainloader (hd0,0)/ntldr

Wonko

[deckoff]

1) On WinToFlash: I thought this tool was developed by the people who developed the method, and wanted to capitalize on this. If i got you right, someone capitalized without being involved in the process of development. I pointed to this method, cos this is the nearest to one-click-solution that I could find. Anyway, this is not what I am looking for, I just "borrowed" the method of pointing to the correct location of the setup, without manually starting the Rescue CD.
2) i dont think i have any issues with grub4dos, I dont even try to map a ISO
3) Of course I do rename SETUPLDR.BIN to bootmgr, that is what the guy in the tutorial is doing, so I kept it that way. (though the reason for renaming is not present and so no rename is needed:)
4) I would like to hear comments on 0x00007b error with split uSB and xp starting form partition hd0,2 Sny ideas what might be the reason.

[Wonko the Sane]

3) Of course I do rename SETUPLDR.BIN to bootmgr, that is what the guy in the tutorial is doing, so I kept it that way. (though the reason for renaming is not present and so no rename is needed:)

JFYI this is the MOST DEPRECATED (by me ) ideat hat EVER surfaced the booting/multi-booting scene
Man invented names to easily distinguish things.....
Compare with:
http://reboot.pro/2362/
http://reboot.pro/5209/
http://reboot.pro/5209/page__st__6

4) I would like to hear comments on 0x00007b error with split uSB and xp starting form partition hd0,2 Sny ideas what might be the reason.

I can understand the single words in the above sentence but I have NO idea whatsoever WHAT (the heck) are you referring to.
Care to expand a little?


Wonko

[deckoff]

I can understand the single words in the above sentence but I have NO idea whatsoever WHAT (the heck) are you referring to.
Care to expand a little?

Wonko

I tried the following setup:
1) I parted a USB in three - one FAT16 part and two NTFS part
2)FAT16 was used to install Freedos and grub.exe was added
3)The second USB (NTFS-1) part is used for Win7
3)The third USB (NTFS-2) part is used for WInXP
4)WinXP is prepared with the method described above : extracting all iso files, coping of the appropriate files in the root.
5) I use grub4dos to start the process:

title 1) WinXP Text Mode Setup - Install Windows XP
chainloader (hd0,2)/ SETUPLDR.BIN
(unfortunately I deleted the exact menu.lst so the above is assumption)
6) the process will start and go on for some time(messages of loading drivers will show). At the moment when "starting up windows" message appears, the process will stop and the error message appears. It seems the error could refer to viruses, corrupted install CD , scsi drive drivers and god knows what else
7) I tried with
Edit txtsetup.sif to add two lines in [SetupData] section:
BootPath = "I386"
SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk0Partition1"
and tried with different settings for "Partition" with no luck.

[deckoff]

PS. Since I use MS-DOS prepared USB to chain into grub4dos to show me menu entries I realize I can specify the file name I need to start whatever I need

[Wonko the Sane]

That would be

SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk0Partition3"

HOW BIG in size are the first two partitions (it is possible that you somehow hit some "access limits"

However, see if this helps:
http://www.msfn.org/...aded-small-iso/

"A USB" does not mean much, Removable/Fixed (please read as "USB stick vs. USB HD") may create issues, if I recall correctly.


Wonko

[deckoff]

The drive was parted like this:
1) FAT16 32 MB
2) NTFS -4.5 GB
3) NTFS 3.4 GB

It seems the problem with WinXP not seening other drives was due to something missing... I tried with different version and not the setup works as expected.

Now I am going to go deeper in the process of what exactly is the problem is after reboot. As far as I get it, the location for the installation media, specified in boot.ini that is on the target install hard disc is not correct. This location should be used by /fastdetect??? So, if the correct location is specified to /fastdetect, the process should work ok?
Is this right?

[Wonko the Sane]

This location should be used by /fastdetect??? So, if the correct location is specified to /fastdetect, the process should work ok?
Is this right?

I don't get it, /fastdetect is an OPTIONAL switch or parameter.
Booting without may be "slower".
http://support.micro...kb/833721/en-us

/fastdetect:comnumber
This switch turns off serial and bus mouse detection in the Ntdetect.com file for the specified port. Use this switch if you have a component other than a mouse that is attached to a serial port during the startup process. For example, type /fastdetect:comnumber, where number is the number of the serial port. Ports may be separated with commas to turn off more than one port. If you use /fastdetect, and you do not specify a communications port, serial mouse detection is turned off on all communications ports.

Wonko

[deckoff]

Ok, so the important part is then

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)WINDOWS="Windows XP

and i will try with something like this


title Second part of 2000 setup/Start from the first internal disk
savedefault
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map --hook
rootnoverify (hd0)
chainloader (hd0)+1

I will try to force map to a letter S or something at the end of the alphabet, read it is possible

[Wonko the Sane]

I will try to force map to a letter S or something at the end of the alphabet, read it is possible

Two questions:

• WHY?
  and
• HOW?

Answer to the second may lie in migrate.inf :
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=19663

But I would really like to know a meaningful answer to question #1


Wonko

[deckoff]

1) WHY?
I am looking for a way to automate the process of providing a correct settings so i don't have to boot into recovery and change boot.ini for the second part of the process.
according to this:
http://www.msfn.org/...127#entry969127

If you use SetupSourceDevice="DeviceHarddisk0Partition1" and follow the procedure in the first post, then during the GUI portion of setup, it asks for the location of files a number of times (about 20 in total). This is because for the GUI portion, I was booting from the internal Harddisk, so that is Harddisk0. However, if you use "GLOBAL??D:", setup finds the files on the USB stick both during text and GUI portion.

[Wonko the Sane]

1) WHY?
I am looking for a way to automate the process of providing a correct settings so i don't have to boot into recovery and change boot.ini for the second part of the process.
according to this:
http://www.msfn.org/...127#entry969127

I see , but that has nothing to do with BOOT.INI, that is about having to click roughly twenty times during setup.

The issue with BOOT.INI is that with the one created by the XP install, you WON'T be able to boot before second part of the setup (an entirely different issue).

Step 7) When Setup reboots, reboot from the USB stick again and enter Recovery Console. If you try to boot from the Harddisk at this point, you'll get a hal.dll error.

I am not sure if you have understood the actual issue with drive order and arc paths.
If you use grub4dos you re-map disks and you have no problems with BOOT.INI.
In the mentioned thread at first boot:

• USB stick is FIRST (boot) disk (.PhysicalDrive0 or Harddisk0) and it's ARCpath is multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)
• Internal hard disk is SECOND disk (.PhysicalDrive1 or Harddisk1) and it's ARCpath is multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)

At second boot:

• Internal hard disk is FIRST (boot) disk (.PhysicalDrive0 or Harddisk0) and it's ARCpath is multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)

The BOOT.INI, which has been created during first boot will refer to "itself", i.e. to multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1) (and this disk does not exist this time)

Compare with the (z-1) approach here:
http://www.msfn.org/...l-from-usb-key/
http://www.msfn.org/...y/page__st__206
all the way up to here:
http://www.msfn.org/...y/page__st__240
all the way up to here:
http://www.msfn.org/...y/page__st__264
and finally all the way up to "final" version:
http://www.msfn.org/...y/page__st__280


Wonko

[deckoff]

I am not sure if you have understood the actual issue with drive order and arc paths.
If you use grub4dos you re-map disks and you have no problems with BOOT.INI.


Wonko

1) I am aware I have two problems
- BTW , i tried fixing the problem manually, booting with live Ubuntu and fixing manually the boot.ini file the way described in the thread mentioned above. It did not work, but I did not try that hard.
2) I cant figure out what is the correct way to re-map. (sorry but am quite new, not quite comfortable with everything)
3) I downloaded the tool for XP installing created by MSFN members
http://www.msfn.org/...omusb-with-gui/
( I see now you were heavily involved in the process, thank you for the efforts) and see that:
- a dummy iso is used in the process (and I dont see why this is needed)
-checkrange is used to determine the number of discs(maybe??????)
-a corresponding file is loaded to use the actual correct remapping (maybe?????)
All this is done BEFORE the text install part (So the correct boot.ini file is created)
All of the above are assumptions....

A simple menu.lst with the correct re-mapping settings might be of great help. I will install on C: - first part of first disk, and my USB is FAT16, MS-DOS bootable - autoexec.bat to grub.exe.
It has in root:
i386 folder and setupldr.bin , ntdetect.com, txtsetup.sif

I checked the entries of migrate.inf , and see if I use the flash that was prepared, it is mapped as U:

[Wonko the Sane]

Yep , you are referencing to the "new" version of the tool, 1.0 beta7 - 10.December.2010.
You may want to have a look at the old version of it vers. 0.2.3 - 06.July.2009 (that involves NO .iso).

The tool has evolved over time taking little by little into consideration TENS of different possible setups and hardware or BIOS "quirks" and what not.

Basically if you (no actual need for a menu.lst at all, expecially when experimenting it is actually recommended - by me - to use grub4dos command line capabilities).
First time you set in BIOS to boot from USB, the USB will be (in grub4dos) (hd0) and internal disk will be (hd1).


Now you try re-mapping disks:

map (hd0) (hd1)

map (hd1) (hd0)

map --hook

find --set-root /SETUPLDR.BIN

boot

Internal disk is now (hd0) and USB stiick is (hd1).

Try with the TXTSETUP.SIF in root with:
BootPath = "\I386\"
SetupSourceDevice = "\Device\Harddisk1\Partition1"

What happens?
When it asks to reboot you reboot to grub.exe and in command line do:

find --set-root /BOOT.INI

cat /BOOT.INI

What are the contents of the BOOT.INI at this stage?

You reboot, go to BIOS and change boot order, so that the internal hard disk is first disk.
What happens?


Wonko

[cdob]

- a dummy iso is used in the process (and I dont see why this is needed)

As known XP setup dosn't support a USB flash disk.
A (external) CD drive or a internal hard disk is supported.

That's two versions with some internal default behaviou (e.g. internal hard disk does delete installation files).
Neither works at USB flash disk out of the box.

Dummy ISO combines both approaches and circumvent some internal behaviours (e.g. single files are not deleted)

[deckoff]

map (hd0) (hd1)

map (hd1) (hd0)

map --hook

find --set-root /SETUPLDR.BIN

boot

I will add

chainloader  /SETUPLDR.BIN

to this code, but a bootloop will happen. If I remove the map swap lines the install process starts OK.
I tried this in command line, too, and verified withh uuid before and after that the correct swap has happened.

chainloader  /SETUPLDR.BIN

will verify that the correct file will be loaded.
I think I got ntdetect error.
Hmm???

Edited by deckoff, 07 December 2011 - 02:08 PM.

[Wonko the Sane]

Yes, my bad (typo/lapsus calami) you need to add the chainloader /SETUPLDR.BIN command.

You need in root:

• SETUPLDR.BIN
• NTDETECT.COM
• TXTSETUP:SIF

What EXACTLY happens? (which error?) (cannot understand "bootloop")


Wonko

[deckoff]

You need in root:

• SETUPLDR.BIN
• NTDETECT.COM
• TXTSETUP:SIF

I got all these in root.

I added

BootPath = "I386"

SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk1Partition1"

to TXTSETUP.SIF in root.

Here is what exactly happens:
1) If I go

find --set-root /SETUPLDR.BIN

chainloader  /SETUPLDR.BIN

boot

The process will start as expected: The Text part of the installation will start.
2)If i go

map (hd0) (hd1)

map (hd1) (hd0)

map --hook

find --set-root /SETUPLDR.BIN

chainloader  /SETUPLDR.BIN

boot

A short message ntdetect will show for less than a second and the PC will reboot. I tried this on two different PCs.
I tried changing SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk1Partition1" with SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk0Partition1", with no change in results.
If I go with
chainloader (hd1)+1
I receive error
"j"

[ilko]

@deckoff

2)If i go

map (hd0) (hd1)

map (hd1) (hd0)

map --hook

find --set-root /SETUPLDR.BIN

chainloader  /SETUPLDR.BIN

boot

A short message ntdetect will show for less than a second and the PC will reboot.

That's expected. Setupldr.bin/ntdetect/com as well as ntldr/ntdetect.com do not like being started from another disk but the first one. Quite selfish and restricting, but that's it.

SetupSourceDevice = "DeviceHarddisk1Partition1"

That's broken design in general. HarddiskN is how disks are enumerated by disk.sys, one cannot reliably predict whether USB disk will be 0 or 1 or whatever, that's NOT according to boot order which reflects ARC paths and can be manipulated using grub4dos hard disk mapping in order to get proper boot.ini at the end of Text mode and point setupldr.bin where to find the boot and source files.

3) I downloaded the tool for XP installing created by MSFN members
http://www.msfn.org/...omusb-with-gui/
( I see now you were heavily involved in the process, thank you for the efforts) and see that:
- a dummy iso is used in the process (and I dont see why this is needed)
-checkrange is used to determine the number of discs(maybe??????)
-a corresponding file is loaded to use the actual correct remapping (maybe?????)

- a dummy iso is used in the process (and I dont see why this is needed)

That's one of the few ways when one could swap hard disk order to be able to produce proper boot.ini and could start Setup at the same time. As pointed above setupldr.bin/ntdetect.com expect to be started from first hard disk. Workaround is to use a virtual floppy, which is not implemented because it could be used for other purposes- add a driver or answer file for example, or a virtual CD with only the boot files in it.

-checkrange is used to determine the number of discs(maybe??????)

Correct. In order to rearrange ARC path in cases with more than one internal disk and put USB hard disk last this has to be done. Imagine cases with 2 or more hard disks and user installs Windows on the second or third. If the ARC path to that disk is not corrected (read we swap only hd0 and hd1) boot.ini will be generated with incorrect values.

-a corresponding file is loaded to use the actual correct remapping (maybe?????)

Correct.

[deckoff]

Probably I am trying to re-invent the wheel here:
i should give up and concentrate on properly starting the prepared with your tool USB by a FAT16 formatted usb with grub4dos. My BIOS will not boot form nothing else but this. USBs formatted in different way will either freeze the boot or the USB will be reported unbootable...
And read the whole topic where the method for booting XP from usb was developed

Edited by deckoff, 07 December 2011 - 07:58 PM.