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PE vs. full Windows on USB


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#26 wimb

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

I didn't realize, you shrink the universal Windows acording to PE findings.

What's then the difference, between your PE and your universal Windows? Just the working security hive?

In developing Make_PE3.exe I was trying to let 7PE become more like full Windows 7.
- At some stage I wished to add printer support to 7PE (not yet realized but it will be possible with some effort ....)
- Also I could not let 7PE keep its installed drivers and was not happy that all the time I had to install the missing drivers in 7PE

Improving 7PE is a rather tough job and it took quite some effort to have working Audio and Video driver and Theme support.

Then I decided to slim down full Windows 7 using the knowledge obtained in making 7PE
In this way it is possible to solve the two problems of 7PE described above and
boot with a Windows 7 VHD of acceptable size and which has the properties of full Windows 7

The fact that full Windows 7 will keep its installed drivers and additionally installed programs
does mean that certainly the system and software hives of full Windows 7 are essential.
Actually all hives of full Windows 7 are used unchanged in Portable Universal Windows 7 VHD

:cheers:

#27 Henshaw

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:16 PM

I think my question would be, what purposes do you use these USB keys for? I have 1 USB key with a PE3 (from Make_PE3) which is useful to me if I need something to quickly boot to do a test or change a file. Overall, the USB key method is faster for me to test with than using WDS for whatever that reason is. I can't see a personal need for having an OS on a USB key like that.

As far as the drive conversation, we have started using USB HDDs (GoFlex) and take the drive off and put an SSD on it instead. It basically makes them a large USB key.


I did it for myself for business reasons. Since someone else is trying to do the same thing, why not share my findings?

#28 sambul61

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:23 PM

I wonder, if similar testing would make someone interested in comparing PE vs Windows VHD on USB Thumb, since it might be an unforgiving task to install myriad of system files onto a Thumb, only to replace the whole thing soon after with newer or updated OS version... :)

#29 Tripredacus

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 07:55 PM

I did it for myself for business reasons. Since someone else is trying to do the same thing, why not share my findings?


That's fine. I was more trying to say that I (myself) haven't found a use for doing things like this, but was curious because it is apparent that so many others have.

#30 MedEvil

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:37 PM

Great report! :1st:

I second that. Great report! :thumbup:
Thanks!

:cheers:

#31 sambul61

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:49 AM

I went with PWboot: http://reboot.pro/6851/

It would be ideal if someone get interested to develop a GUI tool that can perform a typical scope of operations with VHDs. There are a number of smaller tools available, but some are buggy, other obsolete and limited in scope, so preparing to run Windows natively from a virtual drive is not really covered by ANY good comprehensive tool so far, despite this is the strategic direction where MS is going - by deep integration of Hyper-V into future systems.

#32 ludovici

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:33 PM

Hi WimB ;)

< - At some stage I wished to add printer support to 7PE (not yet realized but it will be possible with some effort ....)>

Have you seen my Spool service post ?
http://reboot.pro/15394/

#33 rushyn

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:59 AM

For me its about smaller size of WINPE vs FULL Windows 7.



For my work i have setup a PE3 boot over PXE with sevral default MS modules added. As wall as integrated driver packs for LAN and HDD controler drivers added from "http://driverpacks.net/". The main intend her is deploment of Windows 7 images using IMAGEX. The generalized images that are deployed also have LAN and HDD controller driver pack integrated in to them. This alloues the deployment Of this image to vertulay any system with any controller Inclding ones there OS is loaded on to a PCI-E SSD. The IMAGEX image (WIM) are pulled of a network server. If we come acorse LAN or HardDrive Contoler that is not integrated in the image i have wreaten BAT(or CMD dependitng on you naming prefresn) that will mount image, integrate driver and then unmount commit the PE images in mintes. It takes longer for Windows 7 WIM's.

The PE IMAGE is ~200MB wich is esnetly for fasst tranfure times using TFTP and a relatvly quick boot time.

I have all so maid a number of speslised PE image for diagnostick perposes.


I gaes the point that i am traing to make is that there is no apsolute best. Only best for whot you are douing. For the sinareo that i we have at my work the ~200MB PE image is better then booting a full install of windows over a network (which can be done. But i can see there booting a Full instal of windows 7 from network or USB whod be prefured.

So let me just repeat my self its about whot you are usinging it for.


Id like to add that its really worth your time learning how to use the MS OPK tool set.if you are series about setting up WINPE. Now I realise that not every one has the time or need so one of of the atomaited tools will do nisely but I find the ones i have tried i found limiting.

#34 joedirt1954

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:28 AM

I just finished reading the replies to the original questions and enjoyed the different answers and opinions given by the members. My need was for a bookable OS with utilities to test PC devices, memory, remove viruses and malware. My search on the internet brought me to this forum and Win 7 PE SE with a good base of applications. I got the bug and joined this forum and with some talented members found more applications to fit my needs. So with a good base I whittled it down and have an excellent bookable USB with Win 7 PE that fits my need.

I had 2 gotchas:
1. Could not get wireless Ethernet to work on my test laptop, I posted the issue on this forum and got help to resolve that and now can boot up on any laptop
2. Can not find a registry cleaner to work on the remote registry on the actual PC I boot on, every application I tried runs the cleaner on the WIN 7 PE.

#35 amalux

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:35 AM

2. Can not find a registry cleaner to work on the remote registry on the actual PC I boot on, every application I tried runs the cleaner on the WIN 7 PE.

CCleaner works via runscanner; either portable or script.

#36 JRColbert

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:49 AM

I myself think there is nothing like a full windows install. Windows is crap anyway, but until Linux does everything I need it to do well then, windows it is.

I only use bootable media via USB Stick if I have a machine beyond repair, or virus removal. I think it is a great idea to run everything from USB Stick, and it is doable at some point. Meaning I think we will see one day some software company come out with an Operating System on a stick, to sell to the masses. However this is exactly what the cell phone companies are doing in a sense.

The phone companies are already making preparations for cell phones to dock to computers, My guess is that the cell phone OS "Android" and all the possibilities for apps, is going to run the future of computing. I have recently purchased a Droid Incredible 2 phone and "if I could connect am external monitor, keyboard and mouse It would be great. LOL!!! The computer, wireless internet and cell phone connection in the palm of my hands. Not to mention everything else I can do with it. Yes, it needs a little more storage space (only comes with 16GB) It would be handy if I could connect an external USB HDD to it. I know this is a bit off topic, but hey I'm just throwing it out there.

As a computer tech, I struggled with bootable antivirus cd's and USB Sticks and thought before about trying to make a complete OS that runs from a usb stick. But I am not Bill Gates, and I don't have a crap pot full of money so my idea would not go anywhere. So I will stick to USB Sticks with XP and or Win 7 on them to just fix computers. I think that is gonna be the norm for a while.

BTW My hats off to all the members here that have poured their hard work into these projects and made them work! Thanks a bunch!!


Let me doubt this also. :w00t:
Of course the hard disk is just as reliable as *any* other hard disk, inside the USB case there is a "normal" hard disk, BUT the probabilities of mechanical shock are IMHO far greater for a 2.5" HD inside a USB portable case when compared to what it would normally have to bear inside a notebook/laptop.
After all the "solid" in "solid state" should have a meaning ;).

OT, but not much, unless you live in Japan ;) if the thingy falls from the table on the floor it is likely to become a dud:
http://www.msfn.org/...internet-noise/

Sometimes I wonder WHY thingies like this:
http://en.akihabaran...kproof-hdd-case
http://www.cultofmac...usb-hard-drive/
are not common or even "standard". :unsure:

:cheers:
Wonko


http://www.cultofmac...usb-hard-drive/

When the manufacture states "A-Data notes there is no guarantee that the hard drive or data won’t be lost – and urges consumers not to splash water on the drive, just to verify that waterproof claim." It's usually not a good sign. :dubbio:

The other one looks pretty good though!! Very nice idea padding the inside of the case for bumps and accidental drops. :good:

Cheers Everyone.

#37 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:00 AM

When the manufacture states "A-Data notes there is no guarantee that the hard drive or data won’t be lost – and urges consumers not to splash water on the drive, just to verify that waterproof claim." It's usually not a good sign.

Sure :thumbsup:, but still it provides "something more" in shock/accident protection for a price that is not that much steep.

The other one looks pretty good though!! Very nice idea padding the inside of the case for bumps and accidental drops. :good:

Yep :), but there is a problem nonetheless. (Problems, problems, always problems .... :whistling:).
Expecially the faster rotating drives tend to heat up quite a bit, and having them enclosed in foam/whatever (or sealed inside a completely waterproof/airtight case) is not at least theoretically the smarter of the ideas. :ph34r:

:cheers:
Wonko

#38 MedEvil

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:04 PM

Unless it is heat conducting foam! ;)

:cheers:

#39 crashnburn

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 05:52 PM

Interesting points Wonko. I love how the Zalman VE 200 ( iodd next version) boots ISO files :)

I am wondering and wish it could do .VHDs as well :)

Or flip the bit and be done with the stoopid stick. ;)

I doubt the "as easily" :dubbio::
http://www.supertale...e/18_75_336.gif

Of course the "best thing" is having BOTH a PE and a "full" XP or 7 AND have it together with a few .iso's in a thingy like the IODD, or the Isostick (when it will be available) or in a CDEMU device, for maximum compatibility.


:cheers:
Wonko

Let me doubt this also. :w00t:
Of course the hard disk is just as reliable as *any* other hard disk, inside the USB case there is a "normal" hard disk, BUT the probabilities of mechanical shock are IMHO far greater for a 2.5" HD inside a USB portable case when compared to what it would normally have to bear inside a notebook/laptop.
After all the "solid" in "solid state" should have a meaning ;).

OT, but not much, unless you live in Japan ;) if the thingy falls from the table on the floor it is likely to become a dud:
http://www.msfn.org/...internet-noise/

Sometimes I wonder WHY thingies like this:
http://en.akihabaran...kproof-hdd-case
http://www.cultofmac...usb-hard-drive/
are not common or even "standard". :unsure:

:cheers:
Wonko



#40 Michele13

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:57 PM

ehm...someone can explain me HOW to make a windows xp portable virtual image with XP_IMG? It is quite difficult for me. Any videotutorials please? :)
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#41 sambul61

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:37 PM

It appears, the program IMG_XP attempts to make a fitted to boot via Grub4DOS from a USB drive WinXP.IMG file from a Win XP Setup ISO saved on your HD (not from a backup of your XP system drive). Hence, you need to download and save such ISO first.

I may guess, at install the program adds Grub4DOS support to your host HD and adds Menu.lst required to accomplish the task of creating the IMG. Then you try to go through the sequence posted by wimb (try to select the right sequence though from many offered :lamo: ).

I guess, the program description assumes, a user went through multiple discussion threads about complexities of implementing such a task. While the user might rightfully assume, he doesn't need to read any of that to use this program via its UI and Help. :)

#42 Michele13

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:42 PM

It appears, the program attempts to make a fitted to boot via Grub4DOS from a USB drive WinXP.IMG file from a Win XP Setup ISO saved on your HD (not from a backup of your XP system drive). Hence, you need to download and save such ISO first.

I guess, the program description assumes, a user went through multiple discussion threads about complexities of implementing such a task. While the user might rightfully assume, he doesn't need to read any of that to use this program via its Tutorial. :)


Ok, i've got the ISO. what now?

#43 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:50 PM

Unless it is heat conducting foam! ;)

Does such a material exist at all? :unsure:
AFAIK metal foams are intended as good cooling material IF actually cooled ;), i.e. if actually crossed by a flow of air or water, or other cooling media, or if you prefer, as a replacement for "car radiator like" coolers (you use it as a replacement for the aliminium fins).
This as an example of what I mean:
http://www.acm-nevad...aphite-Foam.pdf

Cannot say if somethng like that has the actual capability to transfer heat to the outside (aluminium or however metal) case, nor if they are now available at an affordable price.

It used to be very very steep. :ph34r:

A Commercial brand I found:
http://www.kfoam.com...pplications.htm
beside being as well apparently suited to "heat exchangers" seems all but "soft":
http://www.kfoam.com...te/material.htm
in the sense of not being capable of working as a shock absorber. :dubbio:
Another similar one:
http://www.ergaerosp...-properties.htm

Maybe, since the "water proof" or "water resistant" feature is not IMHO a real requirement, if there is a "soft enough" kind of this thermal conductive foam, it would make sense to simply "force insert" the HD in a slot cut in a block of such foam an let the foam itself be the "case" :unsure:


ehm...someone can explain me HOW to make a windows xp portable virtual image with XP_IMG? It is quite difficult for me. Any videotutorials please? :)


Wouldn't it be more probable that you can get support for wimb's tool on it's dedicated thread instead of here? :unsure:
http://reboot.pro/9830/
I thought you were against thread hijacking.... :whistling:

:cheers:
Wonko

#44 sambul61

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:53 PM

I don't think, Michele13 requested support - it seems to be about clear program documentation. I would also enjoy some simplified background, why the program exists, what problem solves, how, etc.

I think however, wimb is one the very best developers in the community, and won't be discouraged by such questions.

#45 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:59 PM

I don't think, Michele13 requested support - it seems to be about clear program documentation to start with.

Maybe not :dubbio:, he asked about someone capable of explaining him HOW to use the tool (which I presumed was asking for support) and about a video tutorial about it's use (which I also presumed was asking for support).
He got anyway NONE of what he asked for. :ph34r:
Maybe this happened because he asked for whatever he asked for in the "wrong" place. :unsure:

Just for the record the tool can BOTH install an XP system from souce ISO to an IMG AND create an image of an existing (small) offline Windows XP installed system.


:cheers:
Wonko

#46 sambul61

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:05 PM

Not because of the wrong place, but due to lack of normal documentation. In the "right" place all s/he can eat is Wonko's advice to read the thread s/he posted in (because Wonko never used the program and has no idea how, but wants to be relevant anyway). The lack of docs will remain unchanged however, prompting other users hit their heads right after, so Wonko will have plenty of enjoyment. :)

I've to say however, in corporate environment people who write Manuals are not the same folks who write code - they go through different training routes. So for forum posted tools the doc expectations level should be moderate at best.

#47 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:14 PM

Not because of the wrong place, but due to lack of normal documentation. In the "right" place all s/he can get is Wonko's advice to read the thread s/he posted in (because Wonko never used the program and has no idea how, but wants to be relevant anyway). The lack will remain unchanged however.

Sure, that's exactly why I added the WARNING to my signature. :)
first part is to NOT give the false impression that I know what I am talking about :ph34r::

it is very likely that the above post:

  • contains unneeded, superfluous, out of topic or plainly wrong info, posted thoughtlessly and unneededly to the only scope of confusing other people or making their life more difficult

and second part:

  • for posts after December 20th, 2010 - it is followed by a comment by someone that explains the above and suggests what I should post and how

is there so that readers can easily understand the nature of the immediately following post by you. :smiling9:

I fail to see however :ph34r:, besides a couple of guesses :w00t: and a very polite :thumbsup: way to suggest to RTFM what you provided (which is anyway replying to a request for support in the use of the thingy).

:cheers:
Wonko

#48 MedEvil

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:36 PM

Not to disturb you two love birds. ;)
But i was actually thinking about some heat conducting (soft) foam.
Can't give you any links to it. Just though it had to exist, after all, we have electricity conducting rubber, which seems also like a contradiction.

:cheers:
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#49 sambul61

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:37 PM

:w00t: very :ph34r: polite :thumbsup:


Such support requests can drain any company will and budget, not to mention a volunteer coder's, who might be more interested in advancing own skills than educating others. The only troll who can benefit from it is...guess who? :)

Do you claim that documentation is useless, as well as accepted in the whole world way to learn known things - by consuming and practicing carefully filtered key directly relevant knowledge? :blush:

#50 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:48 PM

Do you claim that documentation is useless, as well as accepted in the whole world way to learn known things - by consuming and practicing carefully filtered key directly relevant points?


Naah, simply you criticized me for my usual approach to suggest people to RTFM first, but what you suggested was exactly the same advice (only - as said - you made it in a very polite way).

I don't understand what you mean in the part I underlined in the quote. :unsure: :ph34r:

@Medevil
Yes, there may be something like what you described - which is IMHO a really smart idea :thumbsup: - only I cannot think about any material with those features.
If anyone knows anything about such a foam, and should it be available to the end user, it would be a nice experiment.

:cheers:
Wonko




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