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live repair disk for blind people


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#1 blindside

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:56 PM

Hello! I'm new here and am an absolute beginner. Being myself blind I try to help people like me to easily fix their own computers when Windows can not start. What I try to achieve is live windows disk with good sound support. The sound is very important. Blind people use software application called "screen reader" to have access to their computers. It gives them an audio feedback. More on this here
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Screenreader
There is a very good and open source screen reader called NVDA (none visual desktop access)
http://www.nvda-project.org
It has a portable version. I want to make a disk with built in and automatically starting NVDA screen reader, a sound support for most familiar soundcards (including USB cards), some software for diagnostic, repair, backup and restoration and at least one portable media player as winamp. I understand if all sound drivers are build in, it will become too big and heavy project, so if there is such a thing as universal audio or usb sound card drivers I think they are enough.
I need your advice whitch project is best for this and (if possible) step by step instructions to build accessible live Windows CD. I was able to create some disks with the default settings from win7PE-SE, naughty PE and live XP, but when it comes to personalization than either sound doesn't work, or there is another problem. So after a around 2 weeks of reading and experimenting I decided to ask for help. Please be as less technical as you can. I need an easy way to do the things. Oh, and English is not my first language.

And please, no pictures, I can't see them. Just describe with words when possible.
Thank you!

#2 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:18 PM

Just a few semi-random thoughts, but you already found out how in the Winbuilder world NaughtyPE has a good Audio support, so, if you are OK with a PE 1.x, probably it is the way to follow, though LiveXP has more options as a choice of apps. :unsure: ;unsure;

We have one member, TheRookie, that had some interest in JAWS (a known screen-reader):
http://reboot.pro/14124/

Maybe you can team up with him, since you may have the same "final goal"?

Also this could be something (actually productive :whistling: ;whistling;) activity the good guys at Team Reboot:
http://reboot.pro/forum/129/
could maybe dedicate some of their time....:frusty: ;dubbio;

Out of curiosity can you (I mean your screen reader) see emoticons? :cheers: ;confused1;
My posts are usually full of them, I use them heavily to try and convey some of the spirit with which a sentence is written, and never thought how this could lead to misunderstanding with visually impaired members. :blush: ;blush;

For this particular post I am adding next to each emoticon it's text name (between semicolons instead of colons). :smiling9: ;smiling9;

:cheers:
;cheers;

Wonko

#3 blindside

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:54 PM

Thank you Wonko the Sane!

I'll read the topics you pointed me to and will try connect with the people you told me about.

I use jaws screen reader, but think it would be more complicated to build it in, because it depends on video hooks and video drivers. NVDA does not depend on these and it's free.

Thank you for carrying for blind people and trying to put the emoticons to text. Fortunately the emoticons here are read well and I understand them. The problem is with the picture tutorials or screenshots most people use.

I'll read and try. If there's something new, I'll post it here. Also if there are more ideas, they are welcome.

Something I didn't understand. What did you mean by PE 1.x? I thought it was PE1 that is used for XP PE?

#4 pscEx

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 06:59 PM

Hello! I'm new here and am an absolute beginner. Being myself blind I try to help people like me to easily fix their own computers when Windows can not start. What I try to achieve is live windows disk with good sound support. The sound is very important. Blind people use software application called "screen reader" to have access to their computers.

Thanks, blindside, for your post.
Until now, I had the opinion
"When I start a WB made PE, I usually want to rescue something. I do not want to see my favorite movie, or hear my favorite MP3".

Your post gave me a different view.

In nativeEx_multiPE, I'll try to add a "handicapped" script.

Peter

#5 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:13 PM

Something I didn't understand. What did you mean by PE 1.x? I thought it was PE1 that is used for XP PE?

It's just a convention to try and disambiguate. :)

Original Windows PE ( the one from MS) was PE 1.2 (reserved to their certificated partners/OEM builders or whatever)
Later they released version 1.5 (still reserved)
BartPE was born in an attempt to provide everyone with a valid XP license with a PE.
Later again the good MS guys realized that if you buy one of their OEM license (together with some hardware AND you assemble it) you are a (very little) little OEM builder and provided WinPE 1.6.
Until the release of VIsta :smiling9:, every PE was based on XP/2003 code.
When Vista :blush: came out, a method was needed to distinguish the PE's that could be built frpm it, also because now even the MS WinPE was available to everyone through the WAIK.
Hence the idea of calling *anything* XP/2003 based PE 1.x (so that you comprise in it also MS original WinPE).
Then Vista :unsure: based PE's became logically PE 2.x (as well as those based on Server 2008)
Then came Windows 7, (and the obviously misnamed Server 2008 :w00t: second version, win 7 based) so it was only natural to continue with PE 3.x.

For quite a bit of time during the XP/Vista :cheers: transition, people kept posting generically about "PE" so that there was a lot of misunderstandings around, the numbering was in other words a way to help disambiguate UNdocumented posts/requests for help.

So:
  • PE 1.x means *anything* XP or 2003 based.
  • PE 2.x means *anything* Vista :ph34r:/2008 based
  • PE 3.x means *anything* Windows 7 or Server 2008 (sic) based

Obviously since the base is more similar between Vista :ph34r: and 7, the transition has been much faster than what happened with the first PE 2.x's and quite a bit of Vista :ph34r: related things were ported seamlessy to PE 3.x's.

:cheers:
Wonko

P.s.:

In nativeEx_multiPE, I'll try to add a "handicapped" script.

And I thought that quite a number of .scripts were ALREADY severely limited/disadvantaged.... :frusty:

:cheers:
:whistling:

#6 pscEx

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:23 PM

And I thought that quite a number of .scripts were ALREADY severely limited/disadvantaged.... :frusty:

Maybe some actual projects can be described with your allegation (Of course, besides mine ...) :cheers:
There are current limitations in my project! And they are limited because of known reasons.
Now there is a very new situation wich changed my opinion about "What has to be contents of an usable PE".
I hope you agree that it is allowed to change opinion after new conditions.

Peter

#7 TheRookie

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:35 PM

Hi,

I am using LiveXP and win7PE-SE as well as wimb's make_pe_3 with NVDA.

liveXP:
For the drivers, I used amaluxes driver import PE which detects the drivers when LiveXP boots up.
however, because you have no assurance that the sound of the computer in question which you will work on might work, You'd be better off buying a USB soundcard.
I've bought one myself since, I know LiveXP has the drivers for it, and it would save me some space as well. I try to make the .wim file very small and its around 120mb.

But I assume you don't have a USB card as of yet, and so I recommend that you use driver Import pe, and get the drivers from:
www.driverpacks.net

for the autostarting of NVDA, , I stold a script from NaughtyPE which is called quickstart quick script or something,
so, I basicly tell it where the nvda folder is, and I select the checkbox to let it startup automaticly.

At the moment I can't say that one project is better than the other, as I use each one for different purposes.
Win7pe,

I'm very new to this as well, and for the first time I was able to experience what microsoft daRT is like using NVDA.

As for NVDA in win7PE,
assuming you use Chris R's win7PE-SE,
I firstly build the project,
then mount the wim file.
copy nvda folder to system32
edit start.cmd to have the following:
nvda=%systemroot%\system32\nvda\nvda.exe

But, what I'm thinking is to:
zip a file with the whole LXP project then all you'd have to do is point the project at your copy of windows xp cd, and off you go.
As for winamp, amalux has made a portable version of it which you can use with LiveXP as well as win7pe.

I too, was overwhelmed when i first saw this site, I had no idea what to do, and then I found out, that you do as everyone else does in the process of building your project be it liveXP or win7PE but just change settings or options or even uncheck the script that come with various scriptsin the project you choose.

As for jaws,
well... I could cry.
:cheers:
I really do not know how to get it going in LiveXP or even win7PE.

The problem is the video intercept story as well as other required files.

I've come close, but not close enough.
meaning that:
when I use to try start jaws, I'd get a million errors.
but after adding required files and registry settings, when i start jaws,
I get nothing, no errors, but it doesn't work.
:frusty:
:blush:
It would be great as wonko suggested, if some people here could help us to get jaws working since its far superior to NVDA.


As for emoticons, what I do is to arrow around them and so I know how they look like.
for me, jaws does recognise most emoticons.

and the worst emoticon for me is when sir Wonko is ranting simply because I don't pay much attention!
:whistling:

Don't take me seriously sir, I'm just happy at the moment.
:smiling9:

:unsure:

#8 TheRookie

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:09 PM

Hi Al_jo,

thanks for making the script!
:frusty:

I'll test it and post a reply. would definitely save me all that hastle.

again, thanks for making the script!

:cheers:

#9 Nuno Brito

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 06:23 AM

Just made a script for nvda.

Very good, don't forget to post this script on a new topic so that it can be properly announced to our community.

I will include this script at the newsletter, this is surely an area that needs focus.

:frusty:

#10 TheRookie

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:45 AM

Hello al_jo,

just a suggestion, you might want to add an option to autostart nvda once the pe has booted.

other than that, it works thanks.
:frusty:
one more thing, not sure how you would implement this,
NVDA is being developed constantly, thus there appear new snapshots daily which can fix things or add some feature.

its no must at all to have such an implementation, but I figure that some scripts go online to check for newer programs and download the newer version, so maybe you could add that to your script you are making?

Again, thanks for the script.

Regards,

#11 TheRookie

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:43 AM

Hi al_jo,

thanks for adding the option.
:frusty:

You might want to configure in your script to place the autostart option in start.cmd found in target\windows\system32.

it works for me, and I beleive it loads NVDA after audio drivers have been loaded.

:cheers:

#12 TheRookie

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:27 PM

Hi al_jo,

thanks for the script, However I don't know how to even make a script letalone modify it, so I'm afraid I wouldn't know how to get it autostarted.

Reason I have not bothered about the script in the past is because I find it much easier to simply put NVDA in a folder and at the command to autostart it.

Personally PPApps are my cup of tea, and I find it easier to create than scripts.

I still don't get the scripts vs PPApps.

:frusty:

#13 pscEx

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 03:50 PM

Try to put it into "PostConfig"

See http://code.google.c...i/addpostconfig

Peter



#14 TheRookie

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:56 PM

Hello al_jo,

excellent! NVDA with autostart is working for me.

just a suggestion, although you don't have to add if you don't desire, you could add to your package the following driver folder:
wdma_usb.inf_x86_neutral_a721e4f3907a2769

as it provides generic USB audio drivers.

Also you might like to remove password renew by sala as it is not usable with NVDA currently.

thanks much for your work,
:(

:cheers:

#15 blindside

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:27 AM

Guys, you are awesome. You made so much for such short time.

Peter wrote:
In nativeEx_multiPE, I'll try to add a "handicapped" script.

Thank you. I am interested to see it and the improvements it will do.

Wonko , thanks for the clarification about the different PE versions.

TheRookie, thank you for the directions.

al_jo, thank you for creating the nvda script and the project. They rock~.
One suggestion if you allow. Would it be possible to modify the script so that the user can build the project with his own modified NVDA? This is what I mean. Someone can add to their own NVDA (installed or portable) different synthesizers supporting languages or voices that are missing or are better than the default. Also one might have set the options a certain way. So it would be great if the user has a way to include his own modified nvda through the process. Maybe my suggestion is more applicable for the portable version, because all the files are in one folder. I hope I don’t ask too much. What we have now is great, but can be even better.

Edited by blindside, 29 July 2011 - 08:10 AM.


#16 blindside

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:51 PM

a-j: Sorry, your request can not be fulfilled by me (don’t have the skills).
But there is a file: “nvda.ini” that resides in this folder:
X:\Program Files\nvda\userConfig
Replacing that file with a users own “nvda.ini” could
be one (not the best, of course) temporary solution?

Unfortunately I don’t know how to do this. What I did is to edit the .wim file replacing nvda folder in program files with my modified version. But the problem is that I don’t know how to rebuild the project without losing this change. Now I only run create iso script and all is well accept the audio – it’s gone.

a-j: Added USBaudio drivers (don’t have an usb audio dongle here; can not test)

I have Olympus ds50 digital voice recorder that can be used as an audio device and it’s working well.

A-j: New updated Win7pe_ nvda_ project is here:
http://www.mediafire...lw9w5lfzir6d5zw

Works well.

a-j: Any other app script requests? Add or remove some?

When I solve the main problems I’ll look and probably will have suggestions.

#17 TheRookie

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:11 PM

Hello Blindside,

if you've modified your .wim file to include your updated NvDA, then all you need to do is:
1. unmount your wim file, remember to commit the changes.
2. Export the wim file (this is optional) however, it reduces filesize abit.
3. Use a program like power iso to modify your iso that you have just build using winbuilder, and replace sources\boot.wim with your updated boot.wim and remember to save your new iso.
then you can either burn iso to disk or copy it to hdd/fd and use grub to load it.

#18 blindside

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:31 PM

TheRookie wrote:
3. Use a program like power iso to modify your iso that you have just build using winbuilder, and replace sources\boot.wim with your updated boot.wim and remember to save your new iso.
then you can either burn iso to disk or copy it to hdd/fd and use grub to load it.


Will ultraiso be fine? Would the disk be bootable after changing and burning the modified iso?

#19 TheRookie

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:46 PM

Hello blindside,

Yes,
ultraiso should work fine.

:(

offTopic:

Nuno, or wonko, do help me please?
:white_flag:

didn't notice my 101 post and now I get advanced user.
:happy_dance:
can't I be the exception and get something like:
newbie?
or member?
Please?

Afterall, my username is what I am!
:ranting2:

ok, not so serious, but,
Please?
:ranting2:
:cheers:

#20 Nuno Brito

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:43 PM

can't I be the exception and get something like:
newbie?
or member?
Please?


Done! :whistling:

#21 blindside

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:57 PM

TR: ...then you can either burn iso to disk or copy it to hdd/fd and use grub to load it.

I've been able to create the new iso, but this grub thing and the command line is too far from my thinking. When grub loads what should I do to make cd or hdd/fd to boot? I think all this writing without seeing or voice feedback is dangerous or can make totally blind person become nervous.
Isn't there more elegant way?

#22 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 05:01 PM

TR: ...then you can either burn iso to disk or copy it to hdd/fd and use grub to load it.

I've been able to create the new iso, but this grub thing and the command line is too far from my thinking. When grub loads what should I do to make cd or hdd/fd to boot? I think all this writing without seeing or voice feedback is dangerous or can make totally blind person become nervous.
Isn't there more elegant way?

It's not grub, it's grub4dos.
It uses a configuration file that you can open in NOTEPAD or WORDPAD, so you should be able to type/check it's contents through your "standard" screen reader or audio.
If you want, we can make a menu.lst configuration file that is commanded by "hot-keys", this way it should be easy to use. :whistling:
What do you need/want to boot?
Or, if you prefer, how is the .iso image named (exactly)?

:whistling:
Wonko

#23 TheRookie

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 05:59 PM

Hello,

@nuno, thankyou!
:whistling:

@blindside:

You don't really have to use grub4dos if you don't want to, it was just listed as some of my suggestions i.e. burn the iso to disk, or use grub to load the iso.

But it is not at all a must if you don't want to.

And if you do decide to use grub4dos when ever you are comfortable the \a option will help you greatly as it provides beeps as you go through the menu.

:whistling:

#24 blindside

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 06:09 PM

Wonko wrote:
: It's not grub, it's grub4dos.
It uses a configuration file that you can open in NOTEPAD or WORDPAD, so you should be able to type/check it's contents through your "standard" screen reader or audio.

What happens now is that when I changed the wim image and replace the original with it in the iso file, when starting the machine it takes me to a grub console. Or I do something not as it should? I prefer the CD/DVD or thumb drive to boot automatically as it does when created with winbuilder.
I don’t know where this file resides or how to change it.

W: If you want, we can make a menu.lst configuration file that is commanded by "hot-keys", this way it should be easy to use.
What do you need/want to boot?

I use virtual machine for experimentation and sometimes my real PC. But my final goal is to create a disk for me and other blind people so we can troubleshoot our own and work computers without needing a pear of eyes each time – a disk or thumb drive that will boot and speak right of the way using the internal or external sound card.

Or, if you prefer, how is the .iso image named (exactly)?

I think I’ll rarely need to boot from an iso or another image file located on hdd, if I correctly understood the question.

TheRookie:
You don't really have to use grub4dos if you don't want to, it was just listed as some of my suggestions i.e. burn the iso to disk, or use grub to load
the iso.

And if you do decide to use grub4dos when ever you are comfortable the \a option will help you greatly as it provides beeps as you go through the menu.

I obviously don't understand many things. Looks like As much I learn, as little I know. What I miss is a good step by step tutorial or book how to do all this stuff in plain English. I don't understand when a grub for dos is more comfortable. What kind of menu do I use it for? I'm totaly confused. :whistling:

Edited by blindside, 30 July 2011 - 06:23 PM.


#25 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 07:00 PM

Well, generally speaking, you are supposed to NOT edit a bootable iso and re-build it from scratch.
Mind you, editing might work, but sometimes doesn't :whistling:.
I presume this is what is happening to you, there are a number of complexities in editing a .iso and both Ultraiso and Poweriso, though nice, are not exactly an example of "linearity" or "standard".


grub4dos, is a bootmanager/bootloader that can (among other things) boot some .iso images stored on another media (like USB stick or USB hard Disk or internal hard disk), it is a handy way in your scenarion only for three things:
  • to test the .iso without actually burning it (but if you do the testing in a Virtual machine this is not necessary)
  • to have a "same file" (a .iso image) that can be either burned to CD/DVD or saved to a USB stick/Hard disk)
  • it provides a handy solution if you need to boot "something else" like a multi-boot CD/DVD or USB device

So, we can cancel it's use or at least postpone it's use until any of the above condition is met / need becomes evident. :whistling:

If you ONLY use the PE, there should be not need to include in it's build grub4dos or use it "externally".

:pulpfiction:
Wonko




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