34 replies to this topic

[L A M A]

This thing is using micro processor on batteries! In case you guys are wondering what i'm talking about... its CAR (NOT NVIDIA Tesla Personal Supercomputer!) Technically I'm not a car fan or something, but it came to my attention when I googled up "Electric Car Comparison" (after Hybrid and Plug in Hybrid hyped bull$hit search words)
Tesla WIKI
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster (Sports model)
http://www.teslamotors.com/models (Sedan model) http://www.teslamotors.com/models/faq





When I sent email to contact asking questions, they responded

The Roadster is silent on the outside, when cruising also on the inside, however when accelerating the electric engine has a sound – not to be compared with “old-technology” cars, more like a Jet-engine!
Regarding anti-theft – all Roadster have an standard alarm-system. As an option you can additionally have a “Cobra Navtrak” module built-in which would allow you – in case of theft – to track the car via GPS.

The battery: It is designed to last 7-10 years or 100.000 miles. Nobody knows today how much a battery pack will cost in 2020 but we also offer a “battery-option” with the new car – this means after 7 years the customer can claim a new battery-pack (to be installed in EU-mainland) – this option we are selling for EUR 9.200,-

Their forum also has some infos...
Some interesting quotes from wikipedia

Tesla Motors and Toyota announced in July 2010 that the two companies have signed an agreement to initiate the development of a second generation of the compact Toyota RAV4 EV. Toyota plans to introduce the model into the market by 2012.[79]

A second generation RAV4 EV demonstrator was unveiled at the October 2010 Los Angeles Auto Show. Toyota is building 35 of these converted RAV4s for a demonstration and evaluation program that will run through 2011. The lithium metal-oxide battery and other powertrain components are supplied by Tesla Motors.[80][81]

This site shows something about SUV?


There was a result on another brand too... Nissan LEAF (electric only) and Chevy Volt (electric + gas) but the specs SUCK and no where near above... figures. Ultimately everything i see related to cars hints 2012-2013 will bring something cool...

[Brito]

Be prepared to wait an even longer time. I've been following their progress for some years now and they keep pushing forward the dates.



I once got myself an electrical scooter back in 2008. It was not from a major but rather from China. Costed 1500 Euros, that I deducted 30% on my tax return since it was an electrical vehicle and got it for 1000 Euros.

It was nice. Went from 0 to 50Km/h in less than 5 seconds, the torque from an electrical engine is very different since it has no internal combustion. It makes remarkably low noise, doesn't shake at traffic lights because the engine is only powered when you are moving and it was so handy to charge from the electrical outlets at home or work.

http://www.youtube.c...bed/IxRA3rqmmnI

I have more hopes to see a nice and affordable car from China than from any of the known manufacturers.

[L A M A]

If only Chinese people hack into Telsa's factory or improve battery + engine technologies, their cars can probably do the same anyways, these numbers really look cool.

3.7 sec to get 95 km/h speed (sport) + Single charge drives 394 km + chargeable from normal wall socket 3.5 hours + 200 km/h max speed
5.6 sec to get 95 km/h speed (sedan) + Singe charge drives 482 km + chargeable from normal wall socket 45 mins + 190 km/h max speed

Seden already started Alfa stage (2010)...

http://vimeo.com/18614767

If one buys combustion cars now and later (say 2013) electric cars suddenly start popping up, the existing car's value will get killed
Inhabitat \ Transportation is where I keep my eye on for news...

[L A M A]

Found another one sourced @inhabitat

Fisker Karma? I've never heard these names,... specs look pretty much the same with few exceptions (Solar panel on top + hybrid?)

[Wonko the Sane]

Actual meaningful numbers about the existing model (roadster):

Since 2008 Tesla has sold 1,650 Roadsters in 30 countries through March 2011.

The Roadster has a base price of US$109,000 in the United States, £86,950 in the United Kingdom, and €84,000 in continental Europe.

What you can get with more or less the same (IMHO awful ) amount of money:
http://www.porsche.c...-carrera-4-gts/
http://www.maserati....ranTurismo.html

As it has been well said here:
http://gas2.org/2008...-to-us-in-2009/

While we love hearing about sweet rides like the $100K Tesla Roadster, a functional and economical electric car made for the rest of us would be even cooler.

It's nice, it's fun, it makes you save fuel money, but is it actually usable?:
http://www.allcarsel...ossing-the-line
http://www.allcarsel...the-line/page-2

Sure, maybe in ten or fifteen years from now (and your internal combustion engine car will be worth nothing then ANYWAY)


Wonko

[Brito]

That Maserati looks cool.

Wonko is proposing a faustian bargain..

[Wonko the Sane]

Not really, Wonko the Sane - as re-known - is cheap.

WHEN and IF electric cars will be available at a comparable price with internal combustion ones, THEN, maybe people will be able to afford them (and take charge - pardon me the pun - of the still existing drawbacks they do have, like range and charging times and availability in your own home of a parking lot/garage where to charge it), otherwise, just like those Porsche's and Maserati's, they will remain (BTW nice ) toys for a very restricted elite of very rich people.

In other words, this is the "kind" of electric car that IMHO may possible have a future (in the future ):
http://www.codaautomotive.com/

A normal, everyday car, that everyone can drive, but that is electric instead. (that is to avoid changing the actual society and the way it currently works)

If the above (just an example) car can be in due time brought down to a price of US$ 20,000÷25,000, then maybe we will be able to take a choice.

The Tesla (at least the roadster currently in production) is nothing but an over-hyped gadget.

BTW, and off-topic, but as always not much , anyone has an idea about HOW and WHERE to dispose a 400 Kg Lithium-Ion battery once it has ended it's life cycle?
Imagine a few tens of millions depleted batteries to be taken care of.....

The vehicle of the future (if you are "green") is the SAME one of the past :

Spoiler

Wonko

[L A M A]

...
BTW, and off-topic, but as always not much , anyone has an idea about HOW and WHERE to dispose a 400 Kg Lithium-Ion battery once it has ended it's life cycle?
Imagine a few tens of millions depleted batteries to be taken care of.....

The vehicle of the future (if you are "green") is the SAME one of the past :


Wonko

I thought Model S's specs addressed your issues of "drawbacks they have, like range and charging times" then again,... price [5000$ or 40 000$ (signature edition 300 miles)] just to reserve? very bad.

base model: US$57,400 (range of 160 miles or 260 km)
premium signature model: US$77,400 (ranges of 230 and 300 miles (370 and 480 km))

This Lithium-Ion battery name looks like it exists in laptops, so....? what they do with depleted laptop batteries? (might aswell answer your HOW and WHERE). On one site, i did read that producing these batteries itself (plastic and all) already pollutes too much.


I just read (on this wiki page) "Normal charging times will be 3 to 5 hours, 45-minute QuickCharge will be possible when connected to a 480 V outlet."

Everything is so hyped these days... and i thought this wasn't hyped

[Wonko the Sane]

This Lithium-Ion battery name looks like it exists in laptops, so....? what they do with depleted laptop batteries? (might aswell answer your HOW and WHERE). On one site, i did read that producing these batteries itself (plastic and all) already pollutes too much.

WHATEVER they do with laptop depleted batteries, they will have to do it for something roughly 800 times bigger.

You do understand the concept of quantity, do you?

Disposing less than 0.5 Kg of something is NOT the same thing as disposing of 400 Kg of the same something, and when you multiply these huge single quantity by the number of actual cars that wiil be needed WHEN (and IF) internal combustion engines will be abandoned, the results ampoounts to a BIG problem.

Let's take a 1 million people city.
Let's say that 1 every three people has a laptop and that one every two has a cellphone.
Let's say that a laptop battery weights on average 0.5 Kg.
Let's say that a cellphone battery weights on average 0.05 Kg.
Let's say that current Li-Ion batteries last on average three years:
1/3*1,000,000*0.5=166,166
1/2*1,000,000*0.05=25,000
More or less you need to dispose of 200,000 Kg of batteries every three years, or around 67,000 Kg/year

Let's try with cars.
Let's say that one out of three people has a car.
Let's say that all cars are replaced by Coda's.
Let's say that since these are "better" batteries they have a 8 year life cycle:
1/3*1,000,000*400=133,333,333
133,333,333/8=16,666,666

You see the difference of order of magintude between 16,000,000 and 67,000, don't you?


Wonko

[L A M A]

Wonko I think i found what you're looking for...

From THIS wiki link, I got BYD e6 Chinese (Range: 249 miles or 400 km),



and DOK-ING XD (Range 155 miles or 250 km), Toy looking car with ABS, Power Steering



edit: You mentioned HOW and WHERE (nothing about quantity, though eventually i would have come to calculate that)

[Wonko the Sane]

edit: You mentioned HOW and WHERE (nothing about quantity, though eventually i would have come to calculate that)

JFYI, the red, bolded parts are quantities:

BTW, and off-topic, but as always not much , anyone has an idea about HOW and WHERE to dispose a 400 Kg Lithium-Ion battery once it has ended it's life cycle?
Imagine a few tens of millions depleted batteries to be taken care of.....

Wonko

[L A M A]

ok... gonig back to that quote with proper reading,

You see the difference of order of magintude between 16,000,000 and 67,000, don't you?

Surely there are advantages and disadvantages (which you put here) but how about combustion car's dis-advantages (emissions, permanent depletion of fuel, replacement of engine oils, filters...... and the list that goes on HERE, and somewhere else?). If these vehicles are that bad, why government is offering tax credits? This brings us to Electric vs Combustion debate (which most have already done somewhere)




edit: While I'm searching for HOW,... and going near WHERE you catch me with your brain radar and give me "speeding post tickets" for not reading the rest... You're quite a catcher . Fast reading and skipping gives Wonko the punishment...

[Wonko the Sane]

If these vehicles are that bad, why government is offering tax credits?

Did the thought that maybe, just maybe, government is made of politicians and that historically the category very rarely was appraised for their intelligence, capacity and honesty ever cross your mind?

This brings us to Electric vs Combustion debate (which most have already done somewhere)

No, this brings us to eternal debate of Reality vs Viable alternatives for the future or if you prefer Reality vs. Fantasy.

Personally I have nothing against electric vehicles but as they are currently (or will be in the near future) available they simply don't fit the minimum requisite of logic, sustainability and practicability, by using battery powered cars you:

• MOVE pollution from cities to electric power plants (that need to be GREATLY increased to supply the demand for "charging power") - remember that at world level the majority of power plants use either coal or petrol as fuel
• INCREASE problems with recycling/disposing of HUGE quantities of "heavy metals"

The only very good thing you do in the large scale is that since most people will charge batteries during the night this will greatly reduce the need of "compensation" to take care of current huge difference between day and night demand.


Wonko

[L A M A]

Did the thought that maybe, just maybe, government is made of politicians and that historically the category very rarely was appraised for their intelligence, capacity and honesty ever cross your mind?

cross my mind? yes and NO. Government and all? the politicians are dishonest, UN-intelligent people who just likes to torture people and their future because:

• Basically they're ALL? bunch of morons

No, this brings us to eternal debate of Reality vs Viable alternatives for the future or if you prefer Reality vs. Fantasy.

Personally I have nothing against electric vehicles but as they are currently (or will be in the near future) available they simply don't fit the minimum requisite of logic, sustainability and practicability, by using battery powered cars you:

• MOVE pollution from cities to electric power plants (that need to be GREATLY increased to supply the demand for "charging power") - remember that at world level the majority of power plants use either coal or petrol as fuel
• INCREASE problems with recycling/disposing of HUGE quantities of "heavy metals"

The only very good thing you do in the large scale is that since most people will charge batteries during the night this will greatly reduce the need of "compensation" to take care of current huge difference between day and night demand.


Wonko

I don't think you appreciate that someone, at least, someone is actually doing something "different" (for us and all people). Cheap? Viable alternate? 100% pollution-free? maybe NOT for now,... but at least they started "something".

Maybe that work means nothing to you but, ultimately what are you proposing here? all should stop working and go back to jungle or horse riding? if YES then this is more of a fantasy because even horse needs feeding and they won't stop their droppings. If you look at the LIST, so many people are working. Brain cannot be stopped unless you kill them all

edit: goodnight for now...

[Wonko the Sane]

Sure they started something and it is worth maybe 5% or 10% of what everyone is touting about, as said "as is" diffusion of electric cars based on batteries will simply MOVE pollution from one place to another, and the overall consumption of fossile fuel/materials WON'T CHANGE because of it, and it will CREATE a new waste disposal problem.

So, is it nice?
Yes, if you live in a crowded city.
Is it the solution everyone is bragging about?
NO.

Is it a small step (for a man, a city or government) ? Yes, maybe.
Is it a giant leap for mankind? NOT at all.


Wonko

[Ad van der Meerq]

WHATEVER they do with laptop depleted batteries, they will have to do it for something roughly 800 times bigger.

You do understand the concept of quantity, do you?

Disposing less than 0.5 Kg of something is NOT the same thing as disposing of 400 Kg of the same something, and when you multiply these huge single quantity by the number of actual cars that wiil be needed WHEN (and IF) internal combustion engines will be abandoned, the results ampoounts to a BIG problem.

Let's take a 1 million people city.
Let's say that 1 every three people has a laptop and that one every two has a cellphone.
Let's say that a laptop battery weights on average 0.5 Kg.
Let's say that a cellphone battery weights on average 0.05 Kg.
Let's say that current Li-Ion batteries last on average three years:
1/3*1,000,000*0.5=166,166
1/2*1,000,000*0.05=25,000
More or less you need to dispose of 200,000 Kg of batteries every three years, or around 67,000 Kg/year

Let's try with cars.
Let's say that one out of three people has a car.
Let's say that all cars are replaced by Coda's.
Let's say that since these are "better" batteries they have a 8 year life cycle:
1/3*1,000,000*400=133,333,333
133,333,333/8=16,666,666

You see the difference of order of magintude between 16,000,000 and 67,000, don't you?


Wonko

Hi Wonko,

While these numbers may seem staggering to you, I am not shocked at all. I am in the scrap metal recycling business and these numbers a normal and no problem for the recycling business. Batteries are worth recycling and that is exactly what happens. There are factories that recover lead from the lead acid batteries from your gas powered car and there are factories that recover the lithium and other elements from EV batteries.
Tesla is way ahead of you which you can read here: http://www.teslamoto...cycling-program

[Wonko the Sane]

Hi Wonko,

While these numbers may seem staggering to you, I am not shocked at all. I am in the scrap metal recycling business and these numbers a normal and no problem for the recycling business. Batteries are worth recycling and that is exactly what happens. There are factories that recover lead from the lead acid batteries from your gas powered car and there are factories that recover the lithium and other elements from EV batteries.
Tesla is way ahead of you which you can read here: http://www.teslamoto...cycling-program

Sure , thanks for the update.

No doubt that there are battery recycling plants , of course, but how many batteries can they currently recycle?
How many square meters of surface per ton of recycled battery per year do they use?
How much energy (kW per ton)?
Which percentage of the battery is actually recycled? (from the article it seems currently like a 10+60=70%)

Unfortunately the comparison with lead based batteries does not hold much, lead is the one of the most re-usable materials around (together with copper, aluminium and iron/steel), I don't think that lithium is so "easy".
(and the quantity is still different, a "gas powered car" has nowadays a lead battery that weights maybe 15 Kg, to be compared to the 400 Kg, a factor of 25)

By the time these kind of vehicles will become "mainstream", surely there will be adequate provisions for the recycling of them, just like there are for the current technology.

But we still have to take this into account when doing a "balance" of how much ecological an electric car is.


Wonko

[Brian H]

Lithium is actually easy to recycle, and valuable. You're just hand-waving, Wonky.

As for the tired "long tailpipe" argument about power generation, plants are far more efficient and less polluting than millions of little ICE engines running around burning volatile fluids. And most (~90%) of the charging is done at night, in home garages, when there is much surplus (and often wasted) capacity.

As AvdM said, Tesla is way ahead of you. WAY ahead of you.

[Wonko the Sane]

As AvdM said, Tesla is way ahead of you. WAY ahead of you.

I am sure they are.

Thank you anyway for remiding me of this.

I take for granted that you have several years of experience in recycling lithium and conducting power plants environmental studies, so I take you on your word for it, and won't even ask if you have any actual data answering my questions.

Had you missed it, whilst Tesla is UNdoubtedly way ahed of me, I am a little (at least 14 days) ahead of you:

And most (~90%) of the charging is done at night, in home garages, when there is much surplus (and often wasted) capacity.

The only very good thing you do in the large scale is that since most people will charge batteries during the night this will greatly reduce the need of "compensation" to take care of current huge difference between day and night demand.

And as clearly said:

By the time these kind of vehicles will become "mainstream", surely there will be adequate provisions for the recycling of them, just like there are for the current technology.

But we still have to take this into account when doing a "balance" of how much ecological an electric car is.

Nothing against the electrical cars thingy, nor specifically against Tesla , only reminding that there is this factor that is part of the balance and for which there are not (AFAIK) clear figures.
The (BTW nice) Blog article Ad van der Meerq posted a link to contains unfortunately very little of actual DATA:
http://www.teslamoto...cycling-program

BTW, compare thee info in it with these:
http://www.kinsbursky.com/evbr.html
http://www.hybridcar...ries-26047.html
http://www.toxco.com/
http://www.toxco.com/facilities.html

Apparently (and according to the info on toxco's site) in the WHOLE WORLD there is one single facility:

Toxco - Canada - Located in Trail, British Columbia, Toxco-Canada is the only facility in the world that offers both primary and secondary (rechargeable) Lithium battery recycling as well as the recycling of production scrap from the manufacturing of Lithium and Li-Ion batteries. Toxco-Canada utilizes a hydrometallurgical technology to recycle spent batteries and produce lithium and cobalt raw materials.

And apparently, recycling Lithium based batteries is not-so-easy:
http://www.green-ene...9/20090035.html


I am pretty sure that problems will be solved by the time they will arise, but right now there is a lot of speculations and very little facts.

Please also note how this document:
http://www.hybridcar...ries-26047.html

Battery Economics

There is currently little economic need to recycle lithium ion batteries. Most batteries contain small amounts of lithium carbonate as a percentage of weight and the material is relatively inexpensive compared to most other metals, such as nickel and cobalt. As lithium battery packs become larger—and the number of hybrids and electric cars that use lithium batters expands—recycling will become more important and more profitable. Mainstream vehicles will have to begin using lithium ion batteries and run those batteries for at least several years before recycling becomes an issue.

Bolivia has the world’s largest supply of lithium—about 5.4 million tons in the Uyuni Desert alone. Chile has about 3 million tons and the United States owns about 750,000 tons. Despite media reports to the contrary, current demand for lithium is not likely to cause shortages.

places value (and amount) of lithium in a very low place in the scale, whilst this other one:
http://www.green-ene...9/20090035.html
seems like placing it in as a "rare" and "very valuable" metal.

Have also a look to this one:
http://www1.eere.ene...p_05_gaines.pdf

according to it, there are still a number of questions unanswered or not fully answered.

The whole point was about this (AFAIK) lack of clear answers and data (and nothing else), when you have not all factors in an equation, it is possible that by accident you divide by zero :

Spoiler

Wonko

[L A M A]

Hmmm, Things are going fast... Another car announcement
Lightning GT Electric from inhabitat


Charges in 10 min, 0-60mph (100kmh) in 5 sec, 250miles (400 km) range, Battery warranty 12 years!
Wonko do think of this?

[L A M A]

Link from Inhabitat Leonardo DiCaprio


Fisker Karma Range Electric 50 Miles (80 km) Electric+Combustion Range 300 Miles (482 km),charge time?

[Brito]

I like the new BMW i3.

Here is a pic during test drives, they cover the painting with silly patterns during the trial periods.

[Brito]

Hmmm, Things are going fast... Another car announcement
Lightning GT Electric from inhabitat

Looks so nice as well, what is the price tag for one of those?

[Wonko the Sane]

Broken google??
I feel for you.

Provided that prices have not gone down dramatically we are talking of the 240 K$ range :
http://www.engadget....iled-in-london/

That makes for BOTH a 911 AND a Maserati!


Wonko

[L A M A]

Anything that falls below the electrical range of 250 Miles (400 km) is actually for Wonko the cheap the only winners in this thread are: Lightning GT || Tesla || BYD e6 (Chinese).


However, soon to be available cars are... Tesla's S || Fisker (hybrid with bad electric range).

edit: All I'm saying is that keeping eye on electric car's progress is not BAD (maybe buying is bad for now). About your prices, the more new cars like Lightning pop up, eventually prices will go down right?
2014