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Engineering a perfect PE


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#1 MedEvil

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:00 AM

Given the interest, in the clean project thread, about a project without interscript dependencies, i open this topic to discuss concepts and ideas on how to engineer such a wonder.

Especialy a way to find registry dependencies, would be of major interest to me.

B)

#2 larioteo

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 10:17 AM

If i am allowed to say something here, i have a idea.

Main Part:
1. Core (A Barebone Build that runs without anything else)
2. Config (Shell and User dependet configuartions)
3. Components (Extras of the OS like Wordpad and so on, that aren't needed for a stable system)

Second Part:
4. Drivers (additional Drivers for Network and Diskcontroller,...)
5. Apps
6. Other

The Main Part for a Team that whatches that the Base is stable and everything can runs on it.
The Second Part for a Team that aim to support every App for the Main Part.

It is only a Idea, more Parts aren't needed maybe someone have a better sectioning, i don't know, i think there should be seperated and in a release they can be thogether offered.

The Main Part Team, only tests the barebone, the other tests the apps with it. Simple and effective. Less time is needed to fix bugs, and some great ideas will raise out from every user.

#3 MedEvil

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:20 AM

That's not very useful.
We're not fairies and dwarfs, who can just wish things into existence.

The questions is, how to do it!

On a fairly full blown PE, apps can run right out of the box, without caring for dependencies.
However on a barebones build, every app.script would need to bring all it's dependencies along, so we would need a way to find all those dependencies fairly easy or noone will do app scripts anymore, because they become as complicated to create as system.scripts.

B)

#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 02:05 PM

That's not very useful.
We're not fairies and dwarfs, who can just wish things into existence.

The questions is, how to do it!

On a fairly full blown PE, apps can run right out of the box, without caring for dependencies.
However on a barebones build, every app.script would need to bring all it's dependencies along, so we would need a way to find all those dependencies fairly easy or noone will do app scripts anymore, because they become as complicated to create as system.scripts.

Just for the record, when someone else brought forward this or a very similar issue ;), you had a ready (and perfectly UNLIKE useful) reply :) :
http://reboot.pro/2690/page__st__18
as you found out yourself as soon as you actually tried it:
http://reboot.pro/3465/

My personal "caveman" approach was explained here:
http://reboot.pro/2690/page__st__22

but the rough idea was never expanded by any other comment/suggestion/etc. :(

:cheers:
Wonko

#5 larioteo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 10:12 AM

Hmm, it seems that nobody is interested (any more) to work together and do the things in a better way!?

What need reboot.pro and his developers, is a standard, i have been studying some scripts and can see the main problems are the Variables, that is a little bit funny. Why every project have his own main variables? Here should be the solution a Support Script, where every project writes there costumized variables, and so on it would be no longer a problem. Or general a little library where winbuilder holds all compability issues with variables.

The second thing is that old not needed code is already commented in the code, which don't help newer developers to improve something, the code is nearly unreadable, nothing seems to be commented.

Some People did a nice job here, but it seems that they are loosing the interest of working together.

@Nuno you are the Father of this whole thing it is a great idea, and needs to be organized. The simpliest way would be to make some policies on how a project should be created.

I know that the Common API developers are here something like god for the users, but i never seen a caotic script like that.

How could a newcomer help here other developers without any documentation of their scripts?

#6 pscEx

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 11:17 AM

If i am allowed to say something here, i have a idea.

Main Part:
1. Core (A Barebone Build that runs without anything else)
2. Config (Shell and User dependet configuartions)
3. Components (Extras of the OS like Wordpad and so on, that aren't needed for a stable system)

Second Part:
4. Drivers (additional Drivers for Network and Diskcontroller,...)
5. Apps
6. Other

The Main Part for a Team that whatches that the Base is stable and everything can runs on it.
The Second Part for a Team that aim to support every App for the Main Part.

It is only a Idea, more Parts aren't needed maybe someone have a better sectioning, i don't know, i think there should be seperated and in a release they can be thogether offered.

The Main Part Team, only tests the barebone, the other tests the apps with it. Simple and effective. Less time is needed to fix bugs, and some great ideas will raise out from every user.

:thumbsup:
This is how nativeEx_multiPE looks:
Posted Image
It creates bootable CD and UFD just with the "core"
Peter

#7 pscEx

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 01:42 PM

I know that the Common API developers are here something like god for the users, but i never seen a caotic script like that.

Let me modify some comments

VirtualTest\qEmu.Script(28): History012=Lancelot because of STUPID wb development decisions with Nazi dictatorship behaviour, %ISOfileVar% implemented to only *RE*create compatibility between projects.
VirtualTest\VirtualBox.script(32): History037=Lancelot because of STUPID wb development decisions with Nazi dictatorship behaviour, %ISOfileVar% implemented to only *RE*create compatibility between projects.
VirtualTest\VMWare.script(35): History023=Lancelot because of STUPID wb development decisions with Nazi dictatorship behaviour, %ISOfileVar% implemented to only *RE*create compatibility between projects.
WriteMedia\ImgBurnISO.script(34): History016a=Lancelot because of STUPID wb development decisions with Nazi dictatorship behaviour, %ISOfileVar% implemented to only *RE*create compatibility between projects.

to

STUPID API development decisions with Nazi dictatorship behaviour


Peter

#8 larioteo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 02:17 PM

Yes i have read a lot of "exbuilder" comments in a lot of scripts, he should be more friendly, why this guy is so unhappy?

I have seen a site gena or so, why to support a 11 year old system (XP) and not a newer one (7) which is a lot of better than the previous.

It makes don't sense to put all energy in old technologie. The future is the future not the past. They made a lot of good work but nowadays i see only kidies that can't believe in a tool that goes forward.

Many programs changes and don't even support their own file formats well, where is the problem.

I think so around 90% of the pe users would like to see many Win7PE Projects and not XP based, there are simply outdatet...

I hope Lancelot and Galopo will come some day down that we all can get in a new feature with a newer based system. Windows 8 is developing and they two just stuck on xp...

Edited by Darijo, 13 May 2011 - 02:20 PM.


#9 Nuno Brito

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 02:33 PM

@Nuno you are the Father of this whole thing it is a great idea, and needs to be organized. The simpliest way would be to make some policies on how a project should be created.

Well, have you ever heard of any kid listening to their parents? The same thing happens when trying to apply any plain common sense policies.. :thumbsup:


I know that the Common API developers are here something like god for the users, but i never seen a caotic script like that.

How could a newcomer help here other developers without any documentation of their scripts?

Would you be available to help change this situation?

If so, please get in contact with Sbaeder. I'm sure that many other folks around the globe would be really grateful if you helped making these scripts understandable by humans, not just "gods".. :worship:

#10 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 03:19 PM

@Darijo

Your latest comments seem to me a bit hastily taken :thumbsup:. (re "newer is better, old is obsolete or unneeded").

Keep in mind that it took more than three years to get from original XP the first "free" PE (BartPE), and only a few months to get VistaPE or Win7PE or "PE3" since the release of the corresponding OS.

This happened because newer things were made on the foundations laid before for older "base OS", and thanks to the MS approach of actually re-using most of the same code/approach/things.

Deepening the knowledge of XP can only produce "better knowledge" that can very often be "ported" to the new PE's.

And consider that not everyone can afford a new machine or the latest OS.

To paraphrase Sir Isaac Newton, most of the development on PE 2.0's and PE 3.0's happened because the various developers have been "standing on the shoulders of giants"
http://en.wikipedia....lders_of_giants

The basic issue (that created so much havoc :() notwithstanding Nuno's comment, is largely to be attributed to him, he provided a tool WITHOUT any meaningful plan (which was allright in the early times) and when the thing actually started to work NO attempt to manage the successful creature in a logical way was made, in a nutshell, without proper syntax/documentation .script developers started using "whatever seemed to work" (no matter if not "kosher" when compared with a non-existant set of rules) and the actual Winbuilder developers (Nuno, but mainly pscEx) in perfect good faith BTW, and with the aim of bettering the "engine" repeatedly broke compatibility with otherwise worlking .scripts, often without supplying anyway the needed docs/syntax, and everything went into a self-destructing spiral, with reciprocal accuses of lazyness/incompetence/intentional sabotaging/lieng and what not :worship: .

Previous attempts to call for a time-out and a new start with a minimum of organization have failed miserably :angry7: , but IMHO it is the ONLY way to go, so good luck in your attempt, I will try to support it as much as I can. :cheers:

JFYI:
http://reboot.pro/12547/
http://reboot.pro/12547/page__st__19
http://reboot.pro/13234/
http://reboot.pro/8980/
http://reboot.pro/8980/page__st__12
http://reboot.pro/8980/page__st__35

:cheers:
Wonko

#11 pscEx

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 04:23 PM

When speaking about "Plans":

Can you solve a secret and tell us you plans?
Just commmenting and critisizing forums posts, using many links (which need a long time to read), cannot be a constructive plan.
I'm getting the feeling that

Have a nice day. Thanks anyway Wonke THE INSANE:)

may contain a bit of reality.

Peter

#12 al_jo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:05 PM

Don’t know why, but I have a feeling that “a perfect PE”
seems to be far, far away…after reading some of the posts here!
:thumbsup:

#13 pscEx

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:08 PM

Don’t know why, but I have a feeling that “a perfect PE”
seems to be far, far away…after reading some of the posts here!
:thumbsup:

Should be the best that I disappear here, and the other guys develop the perfect PE.
I'll concentrate on my "Personal perfect PE" nativeEx_multiPE.
Peter :worship:

#14 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:27 PM

When speaking about "Plans":

Can you solve a secret and tell us you plans?
Just commmenting and critisizing forums posts, using many links (which need a long time to read), cannot be a constructive plan.
I'm getting the feeling that

may contain a bit of reality.

Peter

Well :worship:, I presume that - just like your comment - Vegaredo's malforming of my nick can be proposed for "the most UNcalled for hostile post award - 2011 edition".

JFYI is an acronym for "Just For Your Interest" evidently targeted to Darijo, to let him quickly find, since he is relatively new to the board, some details about IMHO important past events and already made constructive proposals, in order to help him in better knowing what happened in the past.

You cannot whine :thumbsup: about the length or complexity of something that wasn't even addressed to you! :angry7:

And there is NO secret whatever, everything is public:
http://reboot.pro/11015/page__st__4

Since you don't like links, a direct image (an image is worth a thousand words):

Posted Image

Example:
http://reboot.pro/11485/

Have a nice day. :cheers:


:(
Wonko

#15 pscEx

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 05:29 PM

For the record: I saw your post.

Peter

#16 al_jo

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 06:08 PM

Should be the best that I disappear here, and the other guys develop the perfect PE.
I'll concentrate on my "Personal perfect PE" nativeEx_multiPE.
Peter :thumbsup:

Tested your project today, very nice!
I like it very much. Please continue developing…
:worship:

#17 larioteo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:49 AM

Hmm interersting thinkings here around...

A Simple Script should not be to modular. That is the only confusing on non Dev-Users, a person that codes a while will have less problems than a person that never seen a code before.

Simple means Functions that are well documentet, here the main problem is the winbuilder dokumentation. Maybe somebody who knows every Function writes a better one, with sample code for every function how to use. That would make it a lot easier. Yet we must search the functionality of a Mehtod with other existing Scripts, every Script has it own Variables, special Function and so on, it is simply impossible to understand everythink somebody has done last year, and this one is no longer developing script so, we cant even ask that person what does he mean in that part.

The CAPI script is the best sample, for the wrong way, i think not even 99% of all in this forum understanding the syntax, it is terrible documentet, and sometimes some functions don't make sense, becouse a person sees it as important a other person means that this is unaccessary.

@psc i have watched your project since 3 years, and all other to, tried it a lot of times, but there was always something missing, yet i am trying to understand all neccassary scripts and will try it to do it the simple way, much documentation and less code,...

So on if somebody is interested it will be great, to work togheter.

I must finish my next bada App than i will get some time for this, here a link for they they dont believe me:
http://badanation.de/topic.php?t=3966

#18 MedEvil

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:07 AM

A Simple Script should not be to modular. That is the only confusing on non Dev-Users, a person that codes a while will have less problems than a person that never seen a code before.

I'm a bit confused. Are you talking about that the scripts are to hard to use, or that the code in them, is to hard to understand?

Simple means Functions that are well documentet, here the main problem is the winbuilder dokumentation. Maybe somebody who knows every Function writes a better one, with sample code for every function how to use. That would make it a lot easier.

Winbuilder offers, like any good IDE, a click and point menu, to insert commands complete with example syntax, for beginners.
If that's still to complicated for you, your problem lies somewhere else.

Yet we must search the functionality of a Mehtod with other existing Scripts, every Script has it own Variables, special Function and so on, it is simply impossible to understand everythink somebody has done last year, and this one is no longer developing script so, we cant even ask that person what does he mean in that part.

When i started with winbuilder, there were lots of interesting bugs in how the commands really behaved, compared to how they were described. So coding was an adventure, never sure what the script would do, on first run! :)
Still, understanding code written by others, was never a problem.
So i assume, that your problem is not so much the winbuilder syntax, but a more general problem to wrap your head around someone elses way of thinking, which is a prerequirement for reverse engineering.

The CAPI script is the best sample, for the wrong way, i think not even 99% of all in this forum understanding the syntax,

Since more than 99% of the members here are pure users, you're right. If on the other hand, you mean that 99% of the members writing scripts don't understand it, you're wrong.

So on if somebody is interested it will be great, to work togheter.

Maybe. Drop me a PM.


:cheers:

#19 larioteo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:56 AM

I mean the code is hard to understand.

Watch 99% are Users that don't understand the code, but everyone of this Users 99% could be a developer for scripts and help to put the projects in a new range of perfection. In this case every single developer more, can bring more experience to the whole community, a little bit here a little bit there, and voila, the perfect project is near.

I think everybody could develop for winbuilder projects, but they haven't easy to use samples how they should begin.
A good IDE is like the Android or Bada SDK, you should look at the documentations they are fantastic. Every function and subfunction are detailed explained how to use, what they returns, the exceptions and so on.

The WinBuilder itselves has any function neccassary to build a pe. The main problem about many scripts are always different variables. everybody have an other sense of a good variable.

I am understanding that someones here cant believe me, but we are all seeing the status quo today, and it doesn't looks good any more, many projects are disontinued, some new are born, but for how long they would stay supported?

A feature where we all must use such as Microsofts PE would be terrible for everyone.

#20 MedEvil

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:14 PM

Watch 99% are Users that don't understand the code, but everyone of this Users 99% could be a developer for scripts and help to put the projects in a new range of perfection.

Setting a beginner on the CAPI script would be like asking a beginner to write a kernel, completely redicilous.
btw. The CAPI was developed to allow beginners to easyly write app scripts, without much knowledge needed.

I think everybody could develop for winbuilder projects, but they haven't easy to use samples how they should begin.

There exist tutorials for app scripts. If you wanna write system scripts, you don't even have to bother with the 'pesky' CAPI script :), writing pure WB code is much faster.

A good IDE is like the Android or Bada SDK, you should look at the documentations they are fantastic. Every function and subfunction are detailed explained how to use, what they returns, the exceptions and so on.

See, we already found something for to contribute, writing a better IDE for WB scripts.

The WinBuilder itselves has any function neccassary to build a pe. The main problem about many scripts are always different variables. everybody have an other sense of a good variable.

You keep going on about the names of variables, you know what a variable is, don't you? It's a placeholder for the real thing, a placeholder, which name does not matter at all, since it get's thrown away anyway, as soon as the code gets compiled.

:cheers:

#21 larioteo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:09 PM

Or easily the developers here make some guidelines how the code should be like every big project else,

example: http://www.webkit.or...ding-style.html

I mean only some rules what every developer should use, than meanly the main part the code would be every time in a same style and easier to read for newcommers.

You can say that developers have no problem with the scripts, but have you ever seen a person that have learned a syntax like in c++ in a few months, no. For old school devs it is surely easy, but for new, the interest in learning a non well known syntax is more than...

A community that developes something needs some rules guidelines, how the code should be after all, that is what this community needs.

#22 MedEvil

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 09:52 PM

You can say that developers have no problem with the scripts, but have you ever seen a person that have learned a syntax like in c++ in a few months, no.

Firstly, WB syntax is easy. It is basicly like writing a batch.

And yes, i would expect everyone with a background in programming to learn a new language in less than a month. Non programmers could take up to 3 months. Everyone, who doesn't get it by then, will never get it.

Regarding those guidelines.
The world is crazy. They spend lots of time to write pretty code, but noone anymore optimizes code for speed and resources. Am i the only one, who thinks things go terribly wrong here?

:thumbup:

#23 Nuno Brito

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:19 PM

I am understanding that someones here cant believe me, but we are all seeing the status quo today, and it doesn't looks good any more, many projects are disontinued, some new are born, but for how long they would stay supported?

These are problems that have been around for years.

I guess that the main weakness and strength of our community is the fact that we rely on volunteer work.

Try "imposing" rules on volunteers or explaining "CAPI" developers why their code shouldn't be cryptic or why the Winbuilder engine must be kept with a syntax as simple as possible.

In fact, even the word "CAPI" brings me the chills because it should only be "API", something that everyone quickly identifies the purpose of an API inside a script context.

These are not professional programmers and situations like "CAPI" are certainly not efficient nor appropriate for development in a bigger scale where more developers feel welcomed to join.

So, we are aware of these problems but lack resources to improve them.



If you have the energy and will to make a change, certainly that myself and others will not only welcome but also help you within our possibilities.

#24 vvurat

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 11:26 PM

good comment :thumbup:

#25 larioteo

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 06:08 AM

@MedEvil, batch ? simple, i think a worser language you couldn't find to compare
and if you realy think that a programmer can learn c++ in one month than you don't realy know what are you talking about, a java dev would get more problems to go to c++ as otherwize, but i let it stay you have your way, i cannot talk to you ... it don't makes any sense. I see you don't like it when someone critizize the system how some peaple here go and don't wonna see the truth, that this how it yet works, will be in a nearly future, gone. I have made my way through batch, than basic, than c# and now c++, but easy is another thing. I am only realistic and not lying other people that i am the best dev on the world. Your question wheter i know what a variables is, is for me a reason to ignore you from now on. You don't even read what i am writing, you cannot see another "new" user that is saying that everything goes wrong here.

Look the best example are Lancelot, Galapo and psc, that it never can go everytime good. I am watching this Forum a long time, this first two guys made good scripts a long time ago, nowadays there are blended of their skills.

@Nuno yes

@My english skills are also from the developing, i know it is bad

Edited by Darijo, 17 May 2011 - 06:11 AM.





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