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crash caused by program, booting from image file?


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#1 TheRookie

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 04:12 PM

Hi Wimb
;)
As advised by Mr. Wonko, in the full universal xp thread, I've decided to start a new thread in the hope that I could please ask for your help in trying to solve a hard-disk image creation mistery.

Wonko has really helped me alot by explaining that it would be preferable that images be rounded up and has provided for me info which I'm still reading and trying to understan. According to him, the calculations are correct when using HDDImage to create hard-disk images, so there shouldn't be any problem creating an image.
Upon analysis of your image created by ImGXP-create, it is determined that you round the images down.
I've also manually created an image with the same size identical to yours but,
However, I'm running in to a mysterious problem.
:angry7:
The problem is, that a program called JAWS, does not seem to work if I create a hard-disk image using HDDImage. The result is that after a restart, after which the jaws installation is complete, things seem to crash, throwing a 0x00004E error.

The only solution that works currently at this moment, is if I use your program IMGXP create to create the image and install things as usual.

Prefering to create my own custom sized images rather then asking to add different sized image to IMGxp-create, I'd really be appreciated if you could please help me with the following?:
1. How is it that you determine the calculations of the image when you wish to add a new image size to IMGXPCreate?
2. How is it that the image is being mounted with imDisk?
3. What application is used to format the image?
4. Are there any other things added to the image before it is unmounted?

I can't tell you how appreciative I would be for your help, as I've been struggling with this issue for days on end, and it would really be nice to know how you prepare your images.
:cheers:

Regards,

#2 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 06:33 PM

Sorry if I chime in, but a minimum background is needed.

For reference, related posts are in this thread:
http://reboot.pro/13731/
starting here:
http://reboot.pro/13731/page__st__259
and latest evolution is around here:
http://reboot.pro/13731/page__st__340

@The Rookie
Be aware of "common sense advice" points #f1. and #f2.
http://reboot.pro/in...tion=boardrules

or if you prefer, of the risk (IMHO) of slipping on a chocolate covered banana ;)
http://homepages.tes...red-banana.html

:cheers:
Wonko

#3 TheRookie

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 09:22 PM

Hi Wonko,

Thanks much for providing the links to the various posts, I really didn't want to make my previous post long...
;)

I agree and disagree...
"f1.- Post JUST the problem you are having, with needed details, but WITHOUT suggesting what the solution is according to you."

I agree that one can't have a problem and a solution, else the problem wouldn't exist in the first place.
I've also read that, it is nice to try and solve the problem by yourself, and let other people know when asking for help, what you did to try and solve the problem, that way, it wont seem as if you are not doing anything and just expect people to help.

but in trying to narrow down my problem, I've provided something to which Wimb can look to, so that a solution might not be difficult to find.
If I were to just state the problem i'm having:
I.e. if I said I'm having a problem where a program is crashing the boot image that is manually created,
it could perhaps be a number of problems:
i.e. not creating the image in the right way,
incompatibility with other programs existing with this program,
incompatibility of drivers with this program,
incompatibility of hardware with this program,
ETC.
Thus there could be many things that can cause the problem.

I do not claim to know more than anyone else in solving my problem,
but if IMGxp-create seems the solution, then something must be applied by that program which gives an image that solves my problem, as aposed to creating it manually.

"a problem means finding it's SOLUTION, the method through which the latter is found is not relevant and viewing it from just one side can even prevent
from finding the solution"
Unfortunately, for my case, I disagree,
I believe IMGXP-create is relevant in that it produces a working image.

My appoligies if I may have said anything that offended you.
I was only trying to help by writing about IMGXP-create as being a solution and asking how images are prepared with this program.

Regards,

#4 wimb

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:09 AM

Nice to hear that IMG_XP_Create.exe is making Image files that work for you. ;)

I will have a look at hddimage08.cmd and try to find out what makes those Images different so that you have problems with JAWS.
It will take some time, since at the moment I am rather busy.

In anycase I can say that I let IMG_XP_Create.exe to make Image files
that have MBR, partition table and geometry exactly as what is made by XP OS on real harddisk.

May be there are some differences in Images made with hddimage08.cmd
I think you are interested especially in the 10 GB Image files and will study and try to find any differences in this case.

:cheers:

#5 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 11:39 AM

My appoligies if I may have said anything that offended you.
I was only trying to help by writing about IMGXP-create as being a solution and asking how images are prepared with this program.

Not at all, no offence whatever :cheers:, I was only highlighting that (till now) we have not effectively pinned down in a reasonable way the problem to be in the image and in the way it is made by hddimage as opposed to the way it is made in IMG_XP_Create.exe.

To be even more accurate, AFAIK IMG_XP_Create.exe "delivers" a "ready to go" ;) image whilst hddimage.cmd "delivers" a "base" :blink: on which further steps are needed.

My (please allow me to call it "educated" :angry7:)guess is that the problem lies in these further steps and not in the "base image", and if this is the case looking at the "base" only may be misleading :cheers:.

:cheers:
Wonko

#6 TheRookie

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 11:54 AM

Hi Wimb

Thanks much for your reply to my post.
I'm in no rush at all, and I'm glad that you have considered giving some of your time when you see fit to do so in studying the images created by the two programs.

Thanks again, for your IMGXP, and your other projects, I use them and they really help me alot.

Hi Wonko,

I'm happy I didn't offend you, the last thing I want is to fight with someone. Which I don't ever have an intention of doing. it really worries me what I might say even though I do try to think before I write it.

I agree with you that hddimage does not prepare the image as aposed to IMG_xp_create.exe
However, if you have seen my questions in the first post, I do believe they cover from the way the image is calculated, mounted, whatever it is that will be applied and then unmounted.

regards,

#7 TheRookie

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 03:41 PM

Hi Wimb,

Just bringing this topic back up, in the hope that you may not have forgotten about my problem?

If you however, are still busy, I totally understand.

Regards,

#8 TheRookie

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 12:39 PM

Hi,
:smiling9:
I've managed to solve my problem.
:ermm:
I guess it was right under my nose, but never thought to look and try such a simple option.

For those rare users using jaws like me, (if any) and you have a problem like mine here's what I used:
hddimage 0.8 Thanks to all the wonderful people who've put effort in to making it possible.
(Wonko and others I cannot remember at this moment)
create any size image if you desire and I've used the /r option.
I don't know how will it behave for you if you don't use it.
format the virtual image you created and remember to compress the drive to save space!

Wimb, I must thank you for that one!
:)
because, if I had not read:
IMG_XP_11feb2011.txt
I wouldn't have known that you use the /c when formatting the drive created by img_xp_create.
:cheers:

I'm so happy, I don't know what more to say.
:unsure:
however, I must note the following:
I am using jaws 12.0.1158 at the time. I highly doubt that its the newer version of jaws that makes the difference. I am most certain about the compression option that makes all the difference here.

I'd like to thank Wonko the sane, for putting up with me so much back in Sara's thread of creating a universal image for xp on USB booting from a vhd file.
:rofl:

and lastly, I'd like to say to everybody thanks for making this site what it is today, really valuable information and I really like the support here.

:)

Regards,

#9 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 12:51 PM

Good to know that everything is well. :ermm:

But I am missing something.

If I get it right you are saying that your setup works on a compressed NTFS drive but it doesn't on a "normal" NTFS one? :cheers:

Maybe it is some kind of limitation in your hardware (RAM available? :)) or still in "something else" :unsure: , I mean, I have seen programs having problems running on NTFS compressed drives (but working on "plain" ones) but never the opposite. :smiling9:

:rofl:
Wonko

#10 TheRookie

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 02:56 PM

Hi Wonko,

Yep, you are correct in that, I am using a compressed NTFS drive for my setup.

If I may be honest here, you know, I installed jaws to a normal image file created by HDDImage and the image is not compressed. and its not to say that it doesn't run at all, but, its just a specific setting that I change which causes this problem.

I like customising the program to my needs and so I guess all works fine with using a compressed ntfs drive.

What I find strange though is if I use VBoot and create a vhd file which I don't think the image is compressed, then all seems to work well.
I have yet to try firadisk and see how it behaves with this program.

You mentioned that you maybe unsure of what it could be, but just curious, how can I rule out my ram, perhaps, being a probable cause that might lead to such behaviour?

Regards,

#11 Sha0

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:07 PM

You mentioned that you maybe unsure of what it could be, but just curious, how can I rule out my ram, perhaps, being a probable cause that might lead to such behaviour?

MemTest?

#12 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:41 PM

Yep. :smiling9:

Just a completely *random* guess but you may have *something* loaded *somewhere* in RAM when the NTFS is compressed and loaded *somewhere_else* on "normal" filesystem and this *somewhere_else* is somewhat *defective* or the *something* has some timing coflict of *some kind*.

As you can see VERY, VERY vague. :whistling:

Maybe if you tell us WHAT is the "specific setting" that causes the problem we may have a - if not better - more educated guess at what the problem could be.

I happened to find out that Jaws is very "picky" when it comes to video drivers/whatever:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=24049
but it may also be completely UNrelated.

I don't think it could be connected to the actual "mass storage" driver, but who knows :loleverybody:, maybe the .vhd (and the compressed volume) slow down something, whilst the plain filesystem is too fast? :unsure:

:cheers:
Wonko

#13 TheRookie

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 06:17 PM

Hi Sha0,

Thank you for the link, I'm not sure when I can try it, but will try definitely testing the ram when some sighted asistance is available.
As this does not work inside windows.
:loleverybody:

Hi Wonko,

"Just a completely *random* guess but you may have *something* loaded *somewhere* in RAM when the NTFS is compressed and loaded *somewhere_else* on "normal"
filesystem and this *somewhere_else* is somewhat *defective* or the *something* has some timing coflict of *some kind*."
I would agree with you and would like to do some testing however, I don't know what applications/tools I would need to have the defrentiations if any, by comparing the two images.
Is there some possibility that comparing the two images can be done?

"Maybe if you tell us WHAT is the "specific setting" that causes the problem we may have a - if not better - more educated guess at what the problem could
be."
Ok Wonko, you've asked for it!
:whistling:
so, these settings are found in jaws, options, basics, windows system parameters.
Note: this is a text-only screenshot which shows you what is displayed in the window:

Windows System Parameters
Disable Pointer Shadow
Disable Personalized Menus
Disable Hide Keyboard Navigation Indicators Until I Use The ALT Key
Ignore Colors Specified On Web Pages
Disable Language Bar
OK Cancel
Press Insert + F1 for Help.

the insert f1 is not necessary in that, it tells you that the above options are tick/checkboxes, and that you may tick or untick them. It also says that by disabling these settings, functionality of jaws will be improved.

Now, by changing these settings or disabling them, jaws would ask to restart the pc for changes to be made. If installing to a physical partition, it will restart automaticly upon clicking yes however, when installing on a virtual partition, one must restart manually since even on clicking yes, nothing happens.
Now, on the compressed image, the settings stick after a reboot.
And on the uncompressed image, the settings then cause a 0x0000004e error when rebooting.

"I happened to find out that Jaws is very "picky" when it comes to video drivers/whatever:"

I must give you credit for actually looking in to jaws, I doubt many people would do such a thing.
Thank you. :smiling9:
Yes, that is the most horrible problem that I have with jaws, and its reliance on video.
going abit offtopic here:
Which is why I use another screenreader called NVDA in LiveXP and Wimb's make_pe_3 as it does not rely on the video card or video hooking which I think is the technical term.
However, because that SR, doesn't provide what jaws does, it would be a dream come true if jaws could work in LiveXP or Make_pe_3.
I also don't know how to find out what jaws is dependant on apart from the video in order to work i.e. what files or registry entries are needed.

Is there a way, to have a generic mass storage driver loaded for sake of testing, to see if it could perhaps be the cause of the problem?

Appoligies for such a long post, really sorry.

Regards,

#14 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 06:47 PM

Well, you also asked for it. :loleverybody:

You need to improve your skills as troubleshooter/reporter. :smiling9:

0x0000004E is ONLY PART of the story. :cheers:

Post the actual FULL, COMPLETE, EXACT "STOP ERROR code" you get.

You listed 5 (five) settings:
  • Disable Pointer Shadow
  • Disable Personalized Menus
  • Disable Hide Keyboard Navigation Indicators Until I Use The ALT Key
  • Ignore Colors Specified On Web Pages
  • Disable Language Bar

Try checking ONLY one box at a time and report WHICH one(s) do create the 0x0000004E BSOD (as well as the full error code).

Troubleshooting is a long, tiresome process, unfortunately. :unsure:

What you can do is to trace (on a "clean", "full" XP) the jaws install and registry keys, and also trace the actual dependencies/errors.
Suitable tools are Regshot:
(homepage lost in the midst, latest I could find here):
http://www.mediafire...8r1ikb57217und5
and Dependency Walker:
http://www.dependencywalker.com/

General idea:
  • On a "clean" new install of XP run Regshot and save Registry
  • Install jaws and run Regshot again saving another copy of Registry
  • Profile jaws with Dependency Walker and save the log
  • Change the setting(s) that currently create the 0x0000004E STOP and reboot
  • Run Regshot again saving yet another copy of Registry
  • Profile jaws again with Dependency Walker and save the log

Then in a "clean" PE (compressed NTFS or .vhd):
  • Run Regshot and save Registry
  • Install jaws and run Regshot again saving another copy of Registry
  • Profile jaws with Dependency Walker and save the log
  • Change the setting(s) that currently create the 0x0000004E STOP and reboot
  • Run Regshot again saving yet another copy of Registry
  • Profile jaws again with Dependency Walker and save the log

Then in a "clean" PE (not compressed):
  • Run Regshot and save Registry
  • Install jaws and run Regshot again saving another copy of Registry
  • Profile jaws with Dependency Walker and save the log

Start checking differences in the "shots" and in the Logs. :whistling:


:cheers:
Wonko

#15 TheRookie

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 02:03 PM

Hi Wonko,

thank you much for the guidance as well as the links, I will get started with this work soon.

I hope I will come right with getting jaws to work on the uncompressed ntfs partition.

its simply unimaginable to hear jaws working from a win PE.
But hopefully if I get it right, with the dependancy walker and the registry settings, I will be a super happy computer technician!
:w00t:

thanks again for your time.

Regards,

#16 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 02:38 PM

thanks again for your time.

You shouldn't really thank me :w00t: I just gave you several hours of homework! :rofl: :cheers:

...or maybe of "fun" :cheers:

For no apparent reason, a LOLCAT:
Posted Image

:rofl:

:cheers:
Wonko

#17 TheRookie

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:31 PM

Hi Wonko,

originally my previous post was going to be something like:
Hi sir!

you know, you sure give alot of homework!
:cheers:
and someday I plan to find out why is it that it has to be this way?
for now, I think I can safely say that your saturday night didn't go down very well?
If yeah, that is no excuse to give a rookie so much like this!


I come here with a problem, hoping you'd give one step at a time but, you give me all this work?

I've never done such comparisons before, and you tell me to compare shots and the logs as if I'm a pro?
or perhaps you were drinking to much of that vino again?
:unsure:
But then again, if I posted it,
I thought you are going to say something like:

well, if you want this jaws or whatever to be working, and you can't expect to follow clearly outlined instructions,
don't expect it to magicly start working one day.
I've done your comparisons for you with regard to the disk images and signatures back in Sara's thread and you still can't do any comparisons?

But, as I worry of too many things, I have posted what I have posted, and even though it is some work, again, i thankyou for the guidance in what to do.
since I was clueless even in finding a starting point in the first place!
:cheers:

Regards,

#18 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 07:17 PM

Hi Wonko,

originally my previous post was going to be something like:
Hi sir!

you know, you sure give alot of homework!
:(
and someday I plan to find out why is it that it has to be this way?
for now, I think I can safely say that your saturday night didn't go down very well?
If yeah, that is no excuse to give a rookie so much like this!


I come here with a problem, hoping you'd give one step at a time but, you give me all this work?

I've never done such comparisons before, and you tell me to compare shots and the logs as if I'm a pro?
or perhaps you were drinking to much of that vino again?


Do you mean that you are an undercover lamer/whiner at heart? :w00t:

The simple fact that you managed to work on the matter and thought NOT to post the above :cheers: , means that you are not one of 'em. :)

I find it ( I mean the actual whining :ph34r: ) one of the most UNuseful activities on Earth. :cheers:

For no apparent reason, a Bible citation :unsure:, Ecclesiastes 5:10 (Lolcat version ;)):
http://www.lolcatbib...clesiastes_5#10

If sum1 sais, "O Hai, I iz hungri" all teh timez, u can feedz tem cheezburger n cookehs and still not fullz. Whine n whine n eet frum ur kitteh bole n stillz hungri.



Let's see what are the results of the homework ... :cheers:

:cheers:
Wonko




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