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WinvBlock failed with BSOD 0x7B


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#26 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 04:36 PM

That can be useful. Could you explain, how to make accessible an IDE drive connected to MoBO IDE port after Windows XP has started? Device Manager Refresh doesn't work for me...

I hope you read "physically installed pre-POST" in that quotation. Are you saying you have "an IDE drive connected to MoBO IDE port" that is not showing up in Device Manager?

#27 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 04:48 PM

I will post another supposedly off-topic consideration to state that IDE drives are not hot-swappable.

@sambul61
... or to make it sound better I admit my lack of knowledge when it comes to IDE/ATA hard disk drives (actually nearly ALL my field of experience and interest :dubbio:) and repeat my complete lack of attention to details, beside the known fact that I am often wrong, I hope that now that it is clear that I know nothing I am thus allowed to say whatever I wish without further comments from you.
It's getting a bit heavy, you know?

;)
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#28 sambul61

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 04:48 PM

Sha0

Not sure about exact meaning of "physically installed" - immediately presiding the last post or installed & written to Registry sometime in the past? Yes, IDE drive is not showing here until reboot, if connected after boot. SATA won't show either until reboot on most old mobos, if you just installed SATA driver.

#29 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:01 PM

Its interesting you always try to change the subject, or at least modify it, or make less specific and quite different from just discussed when it comes to admit lack of knowledge or attention to detail. :dubbio: Usually you pick a couple of phrases from context, and then play fool using these phrases outside of context. Very skilled... Have you every being wrong about anything?

Believe it or not, this is something that I have thought about accusing you of in private on multiple occasions: putting loosely-associated terms and scenarios, selected at random, together into a post and asking questions that don't make any sense. However, after stopping and taking a few breaths, I decide that it's a simple communication problem: We aren't interested in the same goals or aren't using the same terminology or have a misunderstanding from a previous post or are expecting some mind-reading in addition to the posts we've given. We can work together towards clearer communications, and we do.

...Not sure about exact meaning of "physically installed" - immediately presiding the last post or installed & written to Registry sometime in the past? Yes, IDE drive is not showing until reboot, if connected after boot. SATA won't show either until reboot on most old mobos, if you just installed SATA driver.

"if connected after boot" != "physically installed pre-POST". POST == Power-On Self-Test. Chronologically, POST < Windows boot. So no, you might not be able to hot-attach an IDE disk and install it "late."

Having said that, you can take the same model of IDE HDD and hot-swap it and install it "late." You must uninstall any storage volume(s) from the previous disk, then uninstall the previous disk, then perform the hot-swap, then refresh Device Manager. The key is in understanding why Windows would demand a reboot: If devices are in use. You cannot uninstall a disk if storage volumes that depend on it are active. Check out Removal Relations in the Details tab for your disk. Remove those, then you can remove the disk without rebooting.

#30 sambul61

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:24 PM

Sha0

Actually, that remark was clearly not addressed to you, for a reason I feel your posts are usually very specific, and you tend to admit mistakes when they happen. So, I don't have a communication problem in that respect, but if you do, may be I should look at it. And I already said before that mediation is not welcome. Having NO skills in ANY field gives myriad learning opportunities, often accompanied with all kind of stupid questions that would never make any sense to someone "in the know". :dubbio:

If you look above, the original talk today was about ways to add drivers when booting from disk (not RAM), and the disadvantage of adding drivers after boot being in many cases the need to reboot. Then someone tried to use all kind of tweaks to depart from this talk and mix things up. I don't think it has anything to do with you. Looking at all my communication with that member, can hardly find a single post when he said he was wrong, said "Sorry", "Thanks" or something along these lines - this is statistics, not feelings.

OK, one scenario is clear: you have an IDE disk attached before system boots, then detach it after reboot, and can possibly substitute with the same disk model without reboot - regardless of serials, etc. Will try this.

Another scenario: you have a SATA disk attached before system boots. It might not show up after you add SATA driver after XP booted, unless your Mobo controller has SATA hotswap feature.

#31 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 05:37 PM

Then my full XP Image file including some small apps and installed Office 2003 (Word + Excel + PowerPoint)
has size of 1.6 GB with NTFS compressed format and with about 350 MB free space.

Yep :dubbio: , but that's a nice - no offence intended ;) - piece of bloat :cheers:, I am around a very small image, possibly smaller than the 220 Mb Sha0 mentioned, and I think it can be made since for the intended use I need not a lot of features of the "standard" XP, let alone Office.

:cheers:
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#32 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 06:01 PM

...Actually, that remark was clearly not addressed to you...

I know. I'm merely sharing my experiences (including the part about a couple of breaths), for what they're worth. It's been stressful at times to deal with communications issues. Oh well. :dubbio:

OK, one scenario is clear: you have an IDE disk attached before system boots, then detach it after reboot, and can possibly substitute with the same disk model without reboot - regardless of serials, etc. Will try this.

It'll be fun.

#33 sambul61

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 06:13 PM

Do you have any relation to teaching high school kids? What's more stressful in comparison - this forum? :dubbio:

#34 maanu

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:01 PM

@ Shao and Wimb

ok , since i have xp img working OK as sector mapped image , via USB and HDD . ,

now i thought to expand it to server 2003 sp2 ./

now the case is , server 2003 Img is booting OK from FILEDISK . (means NOT mapped into memory )

now , i prepared the image for usb booting JUST as i did with XP , but now , when i copied img to usb drive .and booted from it ,

it gave BSOD 0x7B with winvblock ALIVE .

here is the screen shoot of the USB drivers and usbbootwatcher.exe service status

http://filebeam.com/...26f40e2985d0d17


USB drivers are set to 0 start ....

i am attaching screen shots for you to examine .

( the screen shots are from the server 2003 IMG booted from HDD drive )

#35 Vortex

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:09 PM

now i thought to expand it to server 2003 sp2 ./
now the case is , server 2003 Img is booting OK from FILEDISK . (means NOT mapped into memory )


Hi maanu,

I had a lot of experiments with booting Server 2003 from file disk but only one attempt had success. What's the HAL type of your computer booting Server 2003? My successfull boot was on ACPI Uniprocessor HAL computer.

#36 maanu

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:17 PM

yes i know , my system is also the same HAL as yours .

issue is , it wont boot if the img is on USB drive . i am typing now from the booted img FROM hdd (server2003) , and it was booted as FILEDISK.

#37 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 08:49 PM

...now , i prepared the image for usb booting JUST as i did with XP , but now , when i copied img to usb drive .and booted from it ,

it gave BSOD 0x7B with winvblock ALIVE ...

Are you trying to boot the image file from USB on the same computer that it boots from when it's an image file on the internal HDD? If so, please boot from the image while it's on the HDD, then connect your USB disk while Windows is running, make sure you can see any partitions on the USB disk from My Computer, then capture the image to the USB disk. The devices along the path to the USB disk must be installed.

#38 maanu

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:04 PM

what is the meaning of

The devices along the path to the USB disk must be installed.


also , since i am NOW using the booted img file from HDD , should i now copy the img to usb and try .


wait a minute , let me understand this , you mean to say , that

the windows SHOULD know the USB drive FIRST before we can copy the img to it to boot from ???

it means , that whenever i need to TRANSFER the image file to another USB drive , i will HAVE to do this LEARNING procedure again , means inserting usb drive first , making it familiar to windows , then capture the img AND then copy it to that USB drive ??


is this the windows limitation or the winvblock's ???

#39 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 09:47 PM

what is the meaning of

The devices along the path to the USB disk must be installed.

...
See also here and here.
...

Instead of repeating, those are two references.

also , since i am NOW using the booted img file from HDD , should i now copy the img to usb and try .
wait a minute , let me understand this , you mean to say , that
the windows SHOULD know the USB drive FIRST before we can copy the img to it to boot from ???

Yes. OR it must have CriticalDeviceDatabase entries to support the devices along the path to the USB disk. That is, for new hardware, you must install all devices along the path to the USB disk or have CriticalDeviceDatabase entries so that they will be installed automatically during Windows' startup. By the way: You could potentially take all IDs from an .INF file and make CDDB entries from them.

It's exactly the same as if you have Window on an HDD with Intel SATA, then clone the HDD to a different model with Intel SATA. If the PnP IDs are different, even though you already have Intel SATA loading in the image, the PnP IDs are different on the new model; Blue Screen of Death.

it means , that whenever i need to TRANSFER the image file to another USB drive , i will HAVE to do this LEARNING procedure again , means inserting usb drive first , making it familiar to windows , then capture the img AND then copy it to that USB drive ??

Yes. Or make CDDB entries for all models that you will be booting on.

is this the windows limitation or the winvblock's ???

It's a Windows limitation. I wish there was a way to explain it "once and for all" that would make sense to any reader. Maybe I'll try again:

When you boot Windows XP/2003 SETUPLDR, it includes facilities for reading .INF files and loading drivers. This means that you can use an F6 floppy to install Windows on any model that the particular F6 floppy supports. Without the driver and the .INF file, Windows would not know how to drive, let's say, a SATA storage adapter, so would not offer you the attached HDD to install onto.

When you are booting Windows, Windows looks at all devices in the computer. For each device, it asks the device, "what other devices are attached to you?" In this way, it builds a tree of devices, with different branches. If a device is not being driven, anything on its branch is unavailable.

When Windows sees new hardware (think never-before-seen PnP IDs), it obviously doesn't already know how to drive them. So it checks the CDDB to see if the PnP IDs are associated with a driver. If the IDs have an entry, then Windows will attempt to drive the device with the appropriate driver.

At boot time, the only drivers available are those that are already in memory, loaded by NTLDR. This is why it is important to set any drivers that drive devices along the path to the boot device as "boot-start" (Start: 0).

So let's walk a couple of steps along a scenario: Pretend you are Windows. Now you are booting on a new model of computer. Now you are looking at devices. You come across a new device. You see its PnP IDs. Now in reality, this is a Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller. But how do you (Windows) know what driver to use? You tell me. Seriously. Tell me how you would do it. How would you know? Know what driver to use? How?

One must split the general idea of "device drivers" into: Drivers and devices. Drivers != Devices. You can load every XP/2003 driver ever made as boot-start. This doesn't mean that Windows knows, "Use driver XXX with device YYY." You need either CDDB or .INF for that association.

#40 sambul61

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:42 PM

At driver install under some conditions Windows also may check its web DB for updated drivers and their association with device chipsets. Each device is ID'd by its chipsets, and some have several chipsets interacting with Windows.

Not every device is PnP, but many consumer USB devices used with PC are.

How exactly would one "set any drivers that drive devices along the path to the boot device as "boot-start" (Start: 0)"?

#41 Sha0

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:50 PM

...How exactly would one "set any drivers that drive devices along the path to the boot device as "boot-start" (Start: 0)"?

Look for the driver's entry in the Registry under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ and set the Start value (a DWORD) to 0.

#42 sambul61

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:56 PM

Does that mean that NTLDR can load just about any Windows driver, and none of them would require a different piece of code (not another driver) loaded by Windows before they can work? :)

#43 wimb

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 07:54 AM

I wish there was a way to explain it "once and for all" that would make sense to any reader. Maybe I'll try again:

Thanks a lot for your very clear explanation.
I am sure that it will help many people around here.

:)

#44 wimb

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 12:50 PM

Yep :cheers: , but that's a nice - no offence intended :yahoo: - piece of bloat :worship:, I am around a very small image, possibly smaller than the 220 Mb Sha0 mentioned, and I think it can be made since for the intended use I need not a lot of features of the "standard" XP, let alone Office.

:cheers:
Wonko

Well that sounds like you would like to use something as the MIN version of portable 7 PE made with Make_PE3
which has complete MassStorage support, Computer Management and Network support, GUI interface and which has size of 160 MB

:cheers:

#45 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:00 PM

Well that sounds like you would like to use something as the MIN version of portable 7 PE made with Make_PE3
which has complete MassStorage support, Computer Management and Network support, GUI interface and which has size of 160 MB

Well, no.
But thanks anyway. :cheers:

As said I am not (yet) on the 7 band wagon.

I already have a functional (for my scopes) XPCLINL setup that is around 80 Mb (UNcompressed) in a FAT16 100 Mb volume.
I was looking for ways to increase it's "portability" by "stealing" ideas from the other projects/developers.

:yahoo:
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#46 maanu

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 05:30 PM

Yes.  [u]OR[/u] it must have [b]CriticalDeviceDatabase[/b] entries to support the devices along the path to the USB disk.  That is, [u]for new hardware, you must install all devices along the path to the USB disk or have CriticalDeviceDatabase entries so that they will be installed automatically during Windows&#39; startup[/u].  By the way: You could potentially take all IDs from an .INF file and make CDDB entries from them.

hmm , all right / amd how would i do this ? from which INF file and how .



It's exactly the same as if you have Window on an HDD with Intel SATA, then clone the HDD to a different model with Intel SATA. If the PnP IDs are different, even though you already have Intel SATA loading in the image, the PnP IDs are different on the new model; Blue Screen of Death.


but Shao , isn't there sysprep for this pupose which does something along these lines ? i mean we make backup of running windows AFTER making some changes to it (using sysprep ) , and then we can restore it to COMPLETELY DIFFERENT hardware , and it will run OK.

i home i am not WAY out of line here , if so , my apologies ...


Yes. Or make CDDB entries for all models that you will be boot.ing on


have you done this on ur img ? if so , HOW ?

in simple words , lets suppose you upload your windows img , and i copy it to my usb drive and start booting from it , i suppose it will BSOD ?

i am just asking HOW i can prevent this BSOD if i want to boot ur img from my usb drive .



It's a Windows limitation. I wish there was a way to explain it "once and for all" that would make sense to any reader. Maybe I'll try again:


THANK YOU SO MUCH , you dont know how good you explained it , and i am totally feeling my self a play group kid against a MBA . hehehe.

#47 sambul61

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 06:23 PM

Windows must boot first to install missing drivers for newly connected devices. Hence, first it should have access to the drive it boots from, and then once it boots it will load extra drivers if your new device chipsets have drivers associated with them already written in reference sources Windows uses.

Sysprep removes references to your old drive from which XP booted before. But a new drive still remains unaccessible to boot from, unless its driver is known to XP and available at boot time.

#48 Sha0

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 03:52 AM

Does that mean that NTLDR can load just about any Windows driver, and none of them would require a different piece of code (not another driver) loaded by Windows before they can work? ;)

A PE-format binary contains dependency information. .SYS drivers are PE-format binaries. SETUPLDR and NTLDR will load a driver's dependencies while loading a driver. Yes, you could load every XP/2003 driver with NTLDR. However, I'm sure there're reasons for having a "driver load order" and having some drivers loaded after the boot filesystem has been mounted.

Thanks a lot for your very clear explanation.
I am sure that it will help many people around here.

Heheh. I hope it helps. Driver (.SYS) != PnP Device (PnP IDs) is a pretty critical idea. :)

...I already have a functional (for my scopes) XPCLINL setup that is around 80 Mb (UNcompressed) in a FAT16 100 Mb volume.
I was looking for ways to increase it's "portability" by "stealing" ideas from the other projects/developers.

Is this using /MININT or as a "full" Windows?

hmm , all right / amd how would i do this ? from which INF file and how .
but Shao , isn't there sysprep for this pupose which does something along these lines ? i mean we make backup of running windows AFTER making some changes to it (using sysprep ) , and then we can restore it to COMPLETELY DIFFERENT hardware , and it will run OK...

You are absolutely correct. The SYSPREP.INF file's [SysprepMassStorage] section is used to populate the CriticalDeviceDatabase. If you are comfortable and familiar with using this method to create a nice CriticalDeviceDatabase for a variety of hardware IDs, then go for it. It just means having to endure Mini-Setup (or whatever choice you make). Otherwise, have a look at the CDDB. Have a look at the IDs found in an .INF file. You might notice that where IDs in an .INF file use a back-slash ('\'), IDs in the CDDB use an octothorpe ('#'). You might notice a ClassGUID in both CDDB sub-keys and in .INF files. You might notice Service values in the CDDB and you might notice AddService lines in an .INF file.

have you done this on ur img ? if so , HOW ?...

Sorry. My image is small enough that I typically boot it as a RAM disk image, not as a GRUB4DOS sector-mapped image. I don't need any USB drivers. You can use wimb's "learning process": Boot the image as a RAM disk for the first time on a brand new model, install devices (that connect storage, such as USB host controllers) in Device Manager, then re-capture the image. Then you can boot the re-captured image as a sector-mapped disk the next time.

THANK YOU SO MUCH , you dont know how good you explained it , and i am totally feeling my self a play group kid against a MBA . hehehe.

Heheheh. I hope it helps. Driver != Device is a pretty critical idea. :cheers:

...But a new drive still remains unaccessible to boot from, unless its driver is known to XP and available at boot time.

Well, maybe this?

...But a new drive disk device will not be populated into the device tree (presented) if its parent device (a storage adapter/controller) is not being driven... Such as if that parent device's driver is not loaded for XP at boot time (iaStor.sys, as an example) or if there is no association between that parent device's PnP IDs and the driver that should drive it (such as a CriticalDeviceDatabase association, as an example).

Here's just an example of how it might work, the first time running on a new model:
  • Windows: Hey, I'm running HALACPI.DLL + NTOSKRNL.EXE! I have found a device ID that needs driving: *PNP0C08. What do I drive it with?
  • CriticalDeviceDatabase: Please use ACPI.SYS
  • Windows: Ok! Done: Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System. Hey MS ACPI-Compliant System, do you have any devices connected to you?
  • ACPI.SYS, on behalf of MS ACPI-Compliant System: Why, yes. Yes I do. I have *PNP0A08 attached to me.
  • Windows: Oh great. What am I supposed to drive that with?
  • CriticalDeviceDatabase: Please use PCI.SYS
  • Windows: Ok! Done: PCI bus. Hey PCI bus, do you have any devices connected to you?
  • PCI.SYS, on behalf of PCI bus: Yup. There's pci\ven_8086&dev_2829 attached to me.
  • Windows: Oh great. What am I supposed to drive that with?
  • CriticalDeviceDatabase: Please use iaStor.sys.
  • Windows: Ok! Done: Intel ®82801HEM/HBM SATA AHCI Controller. Hey SATA controller, do you have any devices connected to you?
  • iaStor.sys, on behalf of the SATA controller: As a matter of fact, there is something attached to me. It has an ID of IDE\DISKACME_____500GB__MarsEdition
  • Windows: Huh? "Mars Edition"? Yikes; am I supposed to even drive that?
  • CriticalDeviceDatabase: Uhhh...
  • iaStor.sys, on behalf of the SATA controller: Oh, well it has a compatible ID of GenDisk too, if that helps.
  • CriticalDeviceDatabase: Ah yes, I know that one. Please drive it with Disk.Sys. Its ClassGUID is {4D36E967-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}.
  • Windows: Yay! Done: ACME 500 GB Mars Edition. I see that that ClassGUID (class of device) has an upper filter of PartMgr.Sys, so I will also invoke that driver for the device, too....
  • ...And so on. Some time later...
  • Windows: Ok, I'm driving every device in the device tree that I know how to drive. It's almost time to run SMSS.EXE. Is the boot partition available? Yes -> Continue. No -> BSoD 0x0000007B.
(Over-simplified.)

#49 sambul61

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:39 AM

Sha0

That's what I like about your posts: you don't suggest to read empty threads with hundreds of posts written by novices trying to figure out each their own irrelevant deficiencies. But (!) - such explanation may only occur, if (1) one knows the subject well enough from practical experience AND (2) is intelligent enough to easy others burden in sifting unprepared through tons of info trash.

What concerns me though, if all these .SYS boys have Power of Attorney to speak on their client's behalf? ;)

While you're in good mood, can you hold your breath (or 2) and explain how the idea of "Grub4DOS Sector Mapped Disk" works for all practical boot purposes (and even to install OS and boot sector onto such a disk image file without mounting it as a volume)? How this concept is different from "file-backed disk" in terms of G4D and WinVBlock work habits? When one is preferred to the other from user prospective?

#50 Sha0

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:06 AM

...with hundreds of posts written by novices trying to figure out...

It wasn't so long ago that I'd never programmed a Windows driver and was a novice playing the same guessing games. Thank goodness for V, who authored WinAoE, and who explicitly granted me permission to evolve it into WinVBlock and who even engaged in discussion on several occasions... And who made WinAoE open source! After all that, thank goodness for Microsoft's Windows Driver Kit documentation , and for the fine folks over at OSR answering a couple of questions. Now in stage 3.333, in regards to this driver:
  • Unconscious incompetence (don't know what you don't know)
  • Conscious incompetence (know that you don't know, and maybe what you don't know)
  • Conscious competence (can do it right while thinking about it/trying/referencing)
  • Unconscious competence (can do it in your sleep)

...explain how the idea of "Grub4DOS Sector Mapped Disk" works for all practical boot purposes

It doesn't. One needs to ensure that the "backing disk" for the sector-mapped disk is available when WinVBlock goes looking for it. That means that every device along the path to the backing disk needs to be driven before WinVBlock goes looking for the backing disk. That involves either pre-installing such devices or otherwise making sure that the devices will "be taken care of" automatically.

(and even to install OS and boot sector onto such a disk image file without mounting it as a volume)?

Write the byte 0x55 to position 0x1FE and the byte 0xAA to position 0x1FF within the image file, counting with the very first byte being position 0. One can use a hex-editor such as TinyHexer to accomplish this. That is enough for WinVBlock to "sense" a range of sectors as being a sector-mapped disk.

You must piece together what you've learned from Vortex' and sara - pmedia's and other posts in order to "install OS...onto such a disk image file" There is no escape from mounting it as a volume sooner or later; Windows XP/2003 is installed to a volume. Why not attach the image and partition it as you'd partition any disk?

How this concept is different from "file-backed disk" in terms of G4D and WinVBlock work habits? When one is preferred to the other from user prospective?

This has been explained before; sorry.




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