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Winbuilder PE perfect as InstantOn OS


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#1 MedEvil

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

This is not really news, but a neat little idea, you've might have not thought of.

Our PE1 make perfect little InstantOn OS. And even surpassing in style and speed the pay versions.

To get the most out of your InstantPE, it is best to get rid of the hardware autodetect and use preinstalled drivers.
Then put everything in a neat little wim and put it on your HDD for max speed or if you can spare 2 or 3 seconds, you can also go with a USB bootdrive.

How to preinstall drivers?
The way i do it is, i let Holgers Network script put the driver files into all the right folders and build the PE like always.
Then i boot it on the target machine and once everything is up and running and correctly configured, i export the whole registry (one branch at a time) and save it to a USB drive.

Now comes the most hidious work, fixing the reg files so they can be merged into the PE hives, so we let notepad do it for us. :)
Simply replace the original HKEY with the one you've mounted the PE hive to (HKEY_Local_Machine\\WB-?????)

Once you're done, simply rebuild the image, NOT the whole PE.

Done!


Because my personal InstantNaughty features only 6 programs total, i also switched from explorer shell to Rocket Dock, which makes all programs available at a single click.

:cheers: :ph34r:

#2 TheHive

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 09:57 AM

Where are the Posted Image

#3 MedEvil

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 02:41 PM

Pictures of what? An empty desktop with a Rocket Dock bar? I think people can manage to imagine that.

:hi:

#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:30 PM

Pictures of what? An empty desktop with a Rocket Dock bar? I think people can manage to imagine that.


Ok ;), then what about some links to the actual .scripts and instructions on the settings (if any)? :hi:

;)
Wonko

#5 MedEvil

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 05:22 PM

Sorry if this post created the impression, there would be a specific project to create such an InstantOn OS.

This post is purely meant to give a hint on, how to use your favorite PE1 project, to create a own InstantOn OS.

Depending on your liking you can use nativeEx_barebone, NaughtyPE or LiveXP as a starting point.

There are no special settings required, besides the removal of the autodetect/install of the drivers, described above.
If you can spare another 10 to 20 seconds, you don't even need to do that.

:hi:

#6 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 05:42 PM

Sorry if this post created the impression, there would be a specific project to create such an InstantOn OS.

Yep, that was the impression I had. :hi:

This post is purely meant to give a hint on, how to use your favorite PE1 project, to create a own InstantOn OS.

What I use to call "teasing", without teasing pictures ;) , but still "teasing". ;)

Basically you are saying that it is possible to do something but don't go in the needed details.

BTW, last time I checked an InstantOn OS is actually "instantly On", but if I get it right this time :cheers: you are saying is that booting a PE with preconfigured drivers from internal HD is pretty fast.

With all due respect :thumbup:, good mooorning Mr. De La Palice:
http://en.wikipedia....es_de_la_Palice

:rofl:

Or, in other words, which "pay version" are you comparing your "InstantOn OS" idea with?

Any timing resulting from experiment?

Or, if you prefer how many seconds boot time do you consider "instant"?



OT :hyper:, but not much ;), you may have missed that we have a new toy to play with Registry hives (offline) :cheers::
http://reboot.pro/11312/
maybe more handy/suitable than Notepad editing. :unsure:


:cheers:
Wonko

#7 MedEvil

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 07:36 PM

Basically you are saying that it is possible to do something but don't go in the needed details.

Seems you have lost in your old days the ability to read. Really a sad story. ;)

BTW, last time I checked an InstantOn OS is actually "instantly On",

Better check that again. None of the InstantOn OS are instantly on, like for instance a C64 was.
They require 10-20 seconds to show the "desktop" and between 20-40 seconds to have really everything up and running.

but if I get it right this time ;) you are saying is that booting a PE with preconfigured drivers from internal HD is pretty fast.

A PE1 optimized in the way described in the first post, can take as little as 14-15 seconds (depending on the hardware) till everything is running.
This puts a PE1 based InstantOn OS on the same level as the fastest commercial one, Splashtop.

OT :hi:, but not much ;), you may have missed that we have a new toy to play with Registry hives (offline) :hyper::
http://reboot.pro/11312/
maybe more handy/suitable than Notepad editing. :cheers:

Yep, missed that. Thanks for the tip.

:thumbup:

#8 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 08:15 PM

A PE1 optimized in the way described in the first post, can take as little as 14-15 seconds (depending on the hardware) till everything is running.
This puts a PE1 based InstantOn OS on the same level as the fastest commercial one, Splashtop.


Very interesting. :thumbup:

I am usually in the "less than 40 seconds" club :smiling9: but you know how I am cheap :ph34r: and use to play with comparatively slow hardware.

:cheers:
Wonko

#9 skyide

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 10:28 AM

Ok here is a 1 second instant boot OS (Linux): http://www.embedded-...nux-boot-to-qt/

#10 i

i

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:00 AM

Very interesting. :cheers:

I am usually in the "less than 40 seconds" club :thumbsup: but you know how I am cheap :smiling9: and use to play with comparatively slow hardware.

:ranting2:
Wonko

Care to share what you are booting 98? XP? how? I'm always interested in fully loaded windows ;) and if thats what you're booting in 40 seconds... :dubbio:in Low hardware,

how? I always wanted to know whats going on inside your PC, g4d, etc... ;)

#11 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:29 AM

Care to share what you are booting 98? XP? how? I'm always interested in fully loaded windows :cheers: and if thats what you're booting in 40 seconds... :dubbio:in Low hardware,

Well, no.
We are still talking of PE's and specifically of PE 1.x (windows XP/2003 based)

how? I always wanted to know whats going on inside your PC, g4d, etc... ;)

By using the good ol'common sense ;) just three basic rules of thumb:
  • whatever it's NOT there takes NO time to load.
  • whatever is small and compact takes LESS time to load
  • whatever is NOT needed to run at start-up can be loaded later and ONLY on demand

Unlike the good Medevil and his NaughtyPE :unsure: which has - I am told - a wide array of multimedia dedicated featires, my builds tend to be VERY MINIMAL, I tend to use PE build's as a local recovery environment, thus I need not a lot of devices to be supported and not a number of services to be running.
So, I am not in any way a *good* reference for a comparison.
JFYI, try building an XPCLI (not a PE, but a *real* minimal XP) and see which booting times you get in Qemu:
http://reboot.pro/3717

@Medevil
BTW, I was thinking about this InstantOn OS idea, and I was wondering what would happen if we delay the loading of any non-vital service a bit.
Mind you it won't speed up the booting, it will only give a faster "desktop ready" *feeling*. :thumbsup:

What happens if we remove non-vital Autostart settings to services and we *later* start them with NET START or SC set of commands? Or maybe creating some "fake" DependOnService keys?
http://support.micro...kb/193888/en-us

Or working on "added" still *fake* GroupOrderList and Tag Values?
http://support.micro...kb/115486/en-us

:ranting2:

Maybe a few more seconds can be shaved off from the *feeling* ... :smiling9:

I am not at all familiar with the thingy you mentioned:
http://www.splashtop.com/
maybe they use the same techniques.

:worship:
Wonko

#12 MedEvil

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 08:31 PM

I really hate boot-land reboot.pro!!!
Wrote a rather lenghly post, clicked on post and got:
Server does not respond.
(Your post has been deleted. Thanks for trying.
Have a nice day.)

I bet the time i spend on boot-land, retyping posts must go into the weeks by now. :ranting2:

So here in short.
- making OS faster - good idea
- removing useless text based hardware detect and driver install - 1-2 seconds
- best idea - using bootvis to optimize boot order - not easily to use in a PE
- delaying start of services - only good idea for those using it primarly offline - most people use online features

Delayed loading in Splashtop? Possible, everyone cheats since XP. ;)


:cheers:

#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 11:10 PM

I really hate boot-land reboot.pro!!!
Wrote a rather lenghly post, clicked on post and got:
Server does not respond.
(Your post has been deleted. Thanks for trying.
Have a nice day.)

Hint (workaround, NOT solution):
If you use Opera (what else ? :cheers:) when you hit the back button (left pointed arrow) you will find your post as it was before you attempted posting. ;)

:ranting2:
Wonko

#14 MedEvil

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:27 PM

Hint (workaround, NOT solution):
If you use Opera (what else ? :dubbio:) when you hit the back button (left pointed arrow) you will find your post as it was before you attempted posting. :dubbio:

Nope. Not working unless javascript is turned off.

:thumbsup:

#15 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 07:59 PM

Nope. Not working unless javascript is turned off.

:thumbsup:


Strange, I do have javascript enabled, and it works.

Maybe some of the submenu items of javascript I have disabled and you don't.

I haven't right now an English Opera to check and give you my current settings, but I doubt it can be that :dubbio:, there must be some other setting....

I am attaching a copy of my Opera6.ini (versin 9.52 10108 Italian runnning) maybe you can compare and see if there are relevant differnces, I don't recall having made "strange" settings. :dubbio:

:whistling:
Wonko

Attached Files



#16 MedEvil

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:29 PM

Just tested it again.

Wrote something into the reply box and pressed refresh.

Without JS enabled, Text stays. With JS enabled, text disappears.


:dubbio:

#17 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 08:38 PM

Just tested it again.

Wrote something into the reply box and pressed refresh.

Without JS enabled, Text stays. With JS enabled, text disappears.


:whistling:


Well, you tested ANOTHER thing :dubbio: : I didn't told you about hitting refresh :dubbio:, I told you that after you press the "Add Reply" button or the "Post Preview" one, IF the server throws an error at you, THEN by pressing the back button you go back to the page as it was at the time you pressed the button.

NO refresh was intended/hinted (nor harmed in the making of this :thumbsup:)

;)
Wonko

#18 MedEvil

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:15 PM

I told you that after you press the "Add Reply" button or the "Post Preview" one, IF the server throws an error at you, THEN by pressing the back button you go back to the page as it was at the time you pressed the button.

I know what you've told me. But since i nor you can create a failing server at will, doing a refresh is the next best thing to test the different behavior of the the site based on JS on and off.

And just in case it wasn't clear. I had tested your go back trick before and it only works for me, if JS is turned off.

If go back always works for you, imo then the 'refresh test' should also work for you regardless.

btw: "Post Preview" is only found in the full editor, which i remember to behave slightly different.


:dubbio:

#19 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 08:17 AM

I know what you've told me. But since i nor you can create a failing server at will, doing a refresh is the next best thing to test the different behavior of the the site based on JS on and off.

And just in case it wasn't clear. I had tested your go back trick before and it only works for me, if JS is turned off.

If go back always works for you, imo then the 'refresh test' should also work for you regardless.

btw: "Post Preview" is only found in the full editor, which i remember to behave slightly different.


:yawn:



That's the part that probably makes the difference :confused1: :
  • I ALWAYS use the full editor
  • I USUALLY press "Preview Post" and check the post BEFORE hitting the "Add Reply" button.

Most probably when the "Preview Post" button is pressed, something is changed/cached so that even when the Server fails you can go back. :confused1:
But I am pretty sure that this happens also in the very rare cases I hit directly the "Add Reply", if the Server throws the error.

:cheers:
Wonko

#20 MedEvil

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 11:37 AM

That's the part that probably makes the difference :confused1: :

  • I ALWAYS use the full editor
  • I USUALLY press "Preview Post" and check the post BEFORE hitting the "Add Reply" button.

I use the full editor only, when i quote another post, like in this case.

However the full editor manages to maintain the text after 'refresh', with or without JS. So i guess the 'go back' works always here.


:confused1:

#21 MedEvil

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:22 PM

A friend has build a way faster Instant OS. Running a stripped down Win95 from Ramdisk.
Boot up about 8 seconds including autostart of Opera.

Don't think there's much room for improvement left. :smiling9:

:cheers:

#22 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 05:33 PM

A friend has build a way faster Instant OS. Running a stripped down Win95 from Ramdisk.
Boot up about 8 seconds including autostart of Opera.

Don't think there's much room for improvement left. :smiling9:

Well, with all due respect for you and your friend :P, not really "news".

Ramdisk based 9x's have been around since (at least :cheers:) 2005:
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=12326
and of course:
http://reboot.pro/forum/53/

Current problem with 9x builds is actually with too new hardware (expecially too much RAM) and with (missing) hardware drivers... :cheers:

:rofl:
Wonko

#23 MedEvil

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:28 PM

Don't know, what all the fuzz is about those new M$ OS, OS have been around for decades! :smiling9:

At basicly no point in time, but now, people actually cared enough about booting speed, to install a second slimlined OS just to do a few default things real fast.

So "I could do that years ago." does not count, as nobody cared years ago.

Besides, nobody cares, if an InstantOS can't make full use of all hardware. That's what the main OS is for.
An InstantOS has to boot as fast as possible and, in most cases, do nothing more than give people access to the internet.


:cheers:

PS: I would love to use DOS as InstantOS. Unfortunately with the heavy dependency of modern webpages on javascript, that's not an option.

#24 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 07:26 PM

An InstantOS has to boot as fast as possible and, in most cases, do nothing more than give people access to the internet.

Yep :smiling9:, but - as said - the problem with 9x based builds are that it is very difficult to make them working on today's "powerful" hardware.

KernelEX helps with some new software:
http://www.msfn.org/...nelex-45-final/

But you have to workaround drivers problems, as an example for the eeePC a lot of work was needed:
http://www.msfn.org/...and-windows-9x/

LBA-48 needing drives (bigger than 137 Gib) can be a problem.

Booting 9x on a PC with more than 1 Gb of RAM is not "easy-peasy", etc., etc.

:cheers:
Wonko

#25 MedEvil

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 02:31 PM

But you have to workaround drivers problems, as an example for the eeePC a lot of work was needed:
http://www.msfn.org/...and-windows-9x/

LBA-48 needing drives (bigger than 137 Gib) can be a problem.

Booting 9x on a PC with more than 1 Gb of RAM is not "easy-peasy", etc., etc.

And again you confuse an FullOS with a InstantOS.
An InstantOS does not need to be able to access the full size of a HDD, it is even an advantage if it can't access the HDD at all.
Driver Wise it needs mostly just a driver for the network card.
The RAM part is indeed a bit tricky. Have to ask him next time, i meet him, how exactly he did solve this.

:wheelchair:




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