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#1 smallhagrid

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 06:13 AM

From the email:

We've upgraded the forum software and introduce a unique cool looking design along with many other features.


If this is what improvement is - I desperately need transportation to a sane planet ASAP.

Good:

You can also expect even more changes in the future as we will continue working actively across 2011 to improve our forum conditions.


How about the option to 'skin' the board to make it wide, readable, and pretty much as it was before, which was 100% FINE ???!

Celebrate ?:

You are invited to visit the announcement topic and celebrate with us the "reboot" of our community at


This is like a sharp stick in the eyeball - what's to celebrate in this matter ?

Yawn:

http://reboot.pro/13327/ (how do you like these new short URL's? ;) )


I care ALOT more that emails I saved for their valuable links are now useless and I must search for the topic/author.

Change for it's own sake most resembles the regular consumption of alcohol for inebriation: highly addictive - but only serves to abuse brain cells.

This community has a wealth of valuable knowledge, skills and information and is a valuable resource - why did you have to make it HURT to read now ?

#2 jakent

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 06:27 AM

I'm not fond of the layout myself. It is very busy. Remember guys, the web still needs to be designed for 1024 width, because of netbooks.

I care ALOT more that emails I saved for their valuable links are now useless and I must search for the topic/author.


Same here buddy, I hope the old domain is kept active, and proper redirects/rewrite rules are put in place. I kept these emails for just this reason!

#3 Sudhan

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 06:38 AM

Cool Domain,
And nice features,
But Could use some more Innovation for the Look...

#4 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:47 AM

links are now useless



what links are now useless ?

:yahoo:

#5 smallhagrid

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:52 AM

Here you go:

what links are now useless ?


An example - one of many...

http://www.boot-land...showtopic=12717

#6 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:53 AM

needs to be designed for 1024 width, because of netbooks.



it is designed at 1280x1024 :yahoo:

#7 smallhagrid

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 08:10 AM

And uses what-> maybe 1/3 of it for the postings ?

Absurd.

This is a place for useful information exchange - NOT for fancy, glitzy distracting garbage and overwhelming graphics.

If I want sensory overload I'll seek it.

That is NOT what I come here for.

#8 Nuno Brito

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:15 AM

If I want sensory overload I'll seek it.

You might as well seek some manners while at it.

Be nice, we are working as fast as possible and it is not pleasant to read and work with critics presented in such rude manner.

#9 smallhagrid

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:26 AM

No rudeness intended - nor has any offense been intended.

Here in the boonies we say:
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke."

Or, as a local father said to his daughter as he handed her the keys to his one and only pickup truck:
"Don't bend it."

So if/when someone hereabouts sees sumpin that's got bent or broken it's likely they'll mention it pretty much just as I did here...

Sorry if'n I don't have proper city manners about it - I keep company with horses and hens more than I do with 2-legged folks.

#10 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:32 AM

Here you go:


An example - one of many...

http://www.boot-land...showtopic=12717


I don't know HOW you got that link:
hxxp://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?noref=1&showtopic=12717
but remove the part that isn't needed:
hxxp://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12717
http://www.boot-land...showtopic=12717
How does it work, now? :)


@Nuno,
exactly the SAME kind of critics were exposed (often in a much more polite manner) WELL BEFORE the actual change so - whilst you are right that they can be brought to your attention with some more manners, you are not allowed to have that surprised (and resented) tone.
You knew perfectly WHICH would be the critics, and you decided knowingly to go ahead (which is allright, it is one among the many prerogatives you have as the Boss :worship: ) but really they are ALL expected.

@smallhagrid
Do you happen to have three legged hens? :w00t: ;)
:rofl:


:cheers:
Wonko

#11 Nuno Brito

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:40 AM

Sorry if'n I don't have proper city manners about it - I keep company with horses and hens more than I do with 2-legged folks.

That just made me laugh. It is indeed a very neat explanation. Thank you SmallHagrid. ;)

Here in the boonies we say:
"Don't fix it if it ain't broke."

Yes, you are right. But we also risk getting vulnerable to exploits if the board wasn't upgraded and we are the kind of place that is always trying new stuff. Some ideas do work better than others, sorry to change the way you're used to work.

Dad knows that he will be lucky if the pickup returns that night to his house in good state, yet he gives the keys anyways since it is better than letting his daughter get a ride from strangers.. :)

I care ALOT more that emails I saved for their valuable links are now useless and I must search for the topic/author.

On our test board it was working well even with those tags in the URL. The recent version we applied is simply not liking them now. This is something we'll need to talk with IPB to see what can be done.

#12 Xiaopang

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:05 AM

The response to the new design seems to be overly negative. IMO most criticism I read so far is beyond reason. The new design is much less overloaded than the old one was. It looks more tidy and less cluttered.

The forum width doesn't seem to have limits on my screen (1680x1050). Whoever complained about it only filling a fracture of the screen seems to view the forum on an abysmal resolution where the rather nice sidebar seems to have more of an impact.

Anyway, any complaints about lesser readability due to the width are asinine beyond believe. From a scientifically point of view readability is improved if the text lines are actually shorter, because it makes it easier for the user to find the next line and thus doesn't have to search which might cause him to forget the content he just read. That's also why newspapers use short lines for their articles instead of printing a single line all over the page. A forum width of 800px would be perfect for that matter and if you check out forums run by people who know about this fact (mostly journalists) then you will often find that they use widths between 400 and 800px. So stop complaining people! If you think the tiny sidebar takes too much of your screen then stop using a decade old equipment and upgrade!

Three suggestions from my side:

1. Please increase the message box size. 10 messages is clearly not enough to communicate, let alone keep important messages for reference.

2. The black and white look is really nice and as a journalist I just find it perfect for reading text. However, the subtitles for forum topics are too bright and thus hard to read on the white background. It would be great if you could darken them a bit.

3. I realized that some smilies of the old posts were turned into frownies. No biggie, but this might cause misrepresentation of people's intentions.


Other than that, great job on the new style! This came quite as a surprise and it's great that you paid attention to keeping all the old links valid. I'm also sure you'll work out the kinks that those I-just-started-posting-here-and-immediately-have-to-complain-about-shit-Users moan about.

#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:43 AM

The new design is much less overloaded than the old one was. It looks more tidy and less cluttered.

WHICH "old" one are you comparing the "new" one with?

The "default" (new at the time) one or the more "classical" Webber skin? :)


We have ALREADY been into this:
http://reboot.pro/6431
http://reboot.pro/6431/page__st__47

Why do you think the campaign for freedom of skin was originally started?

Try comparing the present skin and layout (as well as the now old "default" one on boot-land) with that on a board using the "classic" theme, like 911CD:
http://www.911cd.net/forums/index.php

Compare it also with the current (finally no more LCARS-like) one on MSFN:
http://www.msfn.org/board/

Then come back here and tell me which one you find less tiring for the eyes and less confusing.

;)
Wonko

#14 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 11:50 AM

Then come back here and tell me which one you find less tiring for the eyes and less confusing.



If you look like journalists and have eye = reboot.pro ;)

this is the newspapers design indeed :worship:

http://www.nytimes.com/


And Nuno is Head for this Newspaper Unit :)

#15 Xiaopang

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:18 PM

WHICH "old" one are you comparing the "new" one with?


I guess I'm referring to the one that every unregistered user saw. I'm not an art whore. I'm here for the information, so I don't pretty up my experience by going through all skins since I expect from all of them to be equally functional and efficient.



We have ALREADY been into this:
http://reboot.pro/6431
http://reboot.pro/6431/page__st__47


Have we? Well then if WE have been discussing this already then there is certainly no point in doing it again, is there? That's why I was merely welcoming the new design instead of criticizing it like many others. So this way of argumentation would in the least only make sense if I had complained about it and would have started a re-discussion. I didn't. So I'm wondering what you're trying to tell me by posting these links of which the first one doesn't even work lol. Anyway, even from a logical point of view, proclaiming ones opinion doesn't make it less valid just because YOU guys already did it, does it?


Why do you think the campaign for freedom of skin was originally started?


I don't, because I never heard of it. Why do you think I know about stuff that is so selective? Why do you think that this would in any case make me not state my opinion? Why do you address specifically me with this question instead of those who try to re-debate a move that won't be reversed?



Try comparing the present skin and layout (as well as the now old "default" one on boot-land) with that on a board using the "classic" theme, like 911CD:
http://www.911cd.net/forums/index.php

Compare it also with the current (finally no more LCARS-like) one on MSFN:
http://www.msfn.org/board/

Then come back here and tell me which one you find less tiring for the eyes and less confusing.


Seriously, treating me like a boob that doesn't know what he should think is a weak way to argue. Do you think my opinion will change just by looking at those dreadful looking skins? I stand by my opinion for the arguments I mentioned. You didn't make a single one by the way, but only tried to argue by acting like your opinion was right without actually backing it up. Sorry, this is a too unconvincing way of getting your message across :)

I had an IBT-board myself and the first thing that went was the skin. I replaced it with a lot less crowded look that mainly consisted of grayscale elements, not unlike the approach reboot uses now. So yes, reboot looks better than boot-land ever did. A thousand times yes. I could get into details from a design standpoint, but since you didn't actually make a valid point to discuss and the old bootland site isn't available for reference any more, this is moot. Anyway, hurray for the new design :w00t:



If you look like journalists = reboot.pro :worship:


I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but have a beer with me ;) :cheers:

Edit: Just read your edit and now I get it! I could see the thought that went into the new design right from the start. Kudos to Nuno! Glad that there are actually people who pay attention to how it's done right. Too bad that the shortsightedness of those who actually couldn't create a usable design if they had to, think they know enough to criticize it.

Edited by Xiaopang, 17 December 2010 - 12:21 PM.


#16 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:24 PM

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but have a beer with me :) :worship:




If you ask me why all is this made on this way - I do not know.

All this is from head of the Boss - every inch ;)

#17 paraglider

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:03 PM

I think we are all complaining about the wasted space when reading a thread which is why most of us visit these forums. Just look at the difference between 911 and here:

Attached Thumbnails

  • 911.PNG
  • reboot.PNG


#18 Xiaopang

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:23 PM

Well, as I said, this is a stupid, thoughtless complaint. In this case, less is more. If you compare reading speed between wide-lined text and short-lined text, then the short-lined text will always be read faster. This doesn't just help comprehending a thread faster, but is also easier for those non-native english speakers.

If you think this is something to complain about just to save you the extra scroll it takes to compensate for this then take a look at this screenshot:

Posted Image

It shows the forum and message width of a major German computer forum. This is an example of a proper width. Contrary to the terrible skins you prefer, it doesn't force you to actually move your head to read those ridiculously long lines, because they fall out of the focus of your pupils.

#19 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:29 PM

I think we are all complaining about the wasted space when reading a thread which is why most of us visit these forums. Just look at the difference between 911 and here:

you can write same text like this :
1.
On the afternoon of Nov. 16, 2010, Mark Zuckerberg was leading a meeting in the Aquarium, one of Facebook's conference rooms, so named because it's in the middle of a huge work space and has glass walls on three sides so everybody can see in. Conference rooms are a big deal at Facebook because they're the only places anybody has any privacy at all, even the bare minimum of privacy the Aquarium gets you. Otherwise the space is open plan: no cubicles, no offices, no walls, just a rolling tundra of office furniture. Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's COO, who used to be Lawrence Summers' chief of staff at the Treasury Department, doesn't have an office. Zuckerberg, Facebook's CEO and co-founder and presiding visionary,



2.
On the afternoon of Nov. 16, 2010, Mark Zuckerberg was leading a meeting in the Aquarium, one of Facebook's conference rooms, so named
because it's in the middle of a huge work space and has glass walls on three sides so everybody can see in. Conference rooms are a big deal

at Facebook because they're the only places anybody has any privacy at all, even the bare minimum of privacy the Aquarium gets you.
Otherwise the space is open plan: no cubicles, no offices, no walls, just a

rolling tundra of office furniture. Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's
COO, who used to be Lawrence Summers' chief of staff at the Treasury Department, doesn't have an office. Zuckerberg, Facebook's CEO and
co-founder and presiding visionary,


3.
On the afternoon of Nov. 16, 2010, Mark Zuckerberg was leading a meeting in the Aquarium, one of Facebook's conference rooms, so named because it's in the middle of a huge work space and has glass walls on three sides so everybody can see in. Conference rooms are a big deal at Facebook because they're the only places anybody has any privacy at all, even the bare minimum of privacy the Aquarium gets you.

Otherwise the space is open plan: no cubicles, no offices, no walls, just a rolling tundra of office furniture. Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's COO, who used to be Lawrence Summers' chief of staff at the Treasury Department, doesn't have an office. Zuckerberg, Facebook's CEO and co-founder and presiding visionary,

4.

On the afternoon of Nov. 16, 2010, Mark Zuckerberg was leading
a meeting in the Aquarium, one of Facebook's conference rooms,
so named because it's in the middle of a huge work space and has
glass walls on three sides so everybody can see in. Conference
rooms are a big deal at Facebook because they're the only places
anybody has any privacy at all, even the bare minimum of privacy
the Aquarium gets you.

Otherwise the space is open plan: no cubicles, no offices, no walls,
just a rolling tundra of office furniture. Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook's
COO, who used to be Lawrence Summers' chief of staff at the Treasury
Department, doesn't have an office. Zuckerberg, Facebook's CEO and
co-founder and presiding visionary,


depends on the person who wrote :)

#20 jakent

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:56 PM

Here's some constructive criticism. :cheers:

The mobile/android version of the forum looks nice and seems rather useful. If it had a link to some bbcode reference for ease of users that would be nifty. (Could open it up in a different window...) Also, this might be too much to ask, but the mobile version seems to lack a preview feature.

Back to the topic of full site, I believe I figured out what exactly I don't like about the layout. Oh by the way, I'm using Google Chrome. Anyway, it is not necessarily the width of the text; instead, the lack of whitespace on right to transition between the sidebar and the text. They feel like they are running into one another.

A List Apart: In Defense of Readers has a rather good bit on this starting under the heading "Now leave me alone," specifically the 3rd paragraph:

Whitespace is not so much a luxury as it is a prerequisite. Every pixel of whitespace around the text can help the reader stay focused instead of wandering off. A readers’ eyes must repeatedly approach the edge of the text block; a sidebar that is set too close to the text—or one that is brighter or darker in color—will compete with her on every line. Even a small increase in padding between text and sidebar (especially if the sidebar includes more text) can make for a more restful page, and reinforce the reader’s own sense of solitude.


Now on to the broken links...

I don't know HOW you got that link:hxxp://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?noref=1&showtopic=12717but remove the part that isn't needed:hxxp://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12717http://www.boot-land.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12717How does it work, now? ;)


Hi Wonko the Sane, this is the way URLs in the board administrator update emails are linked. It seems like the 50 or so I have archived that go back to January 3rd have noref=1 in the forum URLs. Yes, we could edit them ourselves... but fixing the rewrite rule(s) is fairly straightforward task. Surely there are many others that have archived these emails as I have for later use?

I hope my first post did not come across in a negative tone also, as this was not my intent! This is definitely a neat community, and I've learned a lot!

Edited by jakent, 17 December 2010 - 02:58 PM.


#21 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:06 PM

Here's some constructive criticism. :cheers:


Back to the topic of full site


do you like now - go wide after post 5.

This is the only way and have deformations to be fixed ;)

#22 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:17 PM

@Xiaopang
I see that you took my comment as some kind of argument with you.
But there is none. :cheers:
I simply tried to explain you (should you have missed it) what had happened before.

Basically, everyone is free to like (or not like) the present skin and layout (as well as any other), the whole point is/was the possibility to choose among one or the other according to each one's personal tastes.

Since noone will ever be able to make everyone happy, this seemed at the time (and still seems to me) a way to have everybody happy, BOTH the estimators of the "new look" AND those of the more classical skins.

After much debate, at the time of the "other" big change, Nuno made available (out of the 4 or more available skins) just two ( the "new look" and the "webber" were made available by Nuno).

This time, you (and myself, and everyone else) have NO choice, you can ONLY use the look and layout imposed by Nuno :ranting2: (and so well coded by Mikorist ;) ) .

No matter whether this new "look and layout" is "better" or not, this is only related to PERSONAL opinions, largely variable, having NO choice is, as I see it, BAD :angry7: .

I had hoped that the "campaign for freedom of skin" had been useful to convince Nuno about the possible issues (and besides cutting down considerably compalints by the people still comfortable with the "classical" looks).
Evidently I completely failed. :(

The question I asked you was just curiosity, I concur with you that the present look is somehow "better" than the "old new look" (i.e. the "default look" that unregistered members had ONLY available on boot-land), BUT NOT "better" than the "standard" one.
This is obviously just my personal preference.

Still there are a few "ergonomics" that seem "out of tune" by ANY common standard, as an example, in ALL boards I have seen till now the "Advanced Search" and the "normal" Search are "coupled" or however "connected", here right now they are in two different places and this seems like highly illogical.
The "old" "Advanced Search" matched partial "Author" name, the present one seems like NOT.

:cheers:
Wonko

#23 jakent

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:18 PM

do you like now - go wide after post 5.

This is the only way and have deformations to be fixed ;)


Hi Mikorist,

I'm going to start out by saying: you're not going to please everyone. Don't try too hard. :cheers: Its still terribly busy at the top of the page; I think this is where most of the complaints are coming from. Design is one of those things where it is hard to pinpoint where the problem is.

My suggestion is padding on the inside of post boxes be increased on the left and right (especially the right). Reflowing the boxes as you have done is okay as long as the text does not stretch too wide. Personally, I think the line width was comfortable as it was. Readability was what threw me off.

Edited by jakent, 17 December 2010 - 03:19 PM.


#24 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:23 PM

this was the test - one </div> more if You Believe

#25 Mikorist

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:28 PM

you're not going to please everyone.



i will please only Obi-Wan Kenobi ;)




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