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Strange MS-DOS bug when installing grub4dos to PBR


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#26 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:06 PM

Well,
IF this (listed for MS-DOS 5.0):

In other words: Trust versions 2.0, 10.x, and 20.x of everything. Don't trust version x0.x of anything (i.e. both version 0.x and versions 30.x to 90.x). Don't trust any version less than 3.x of anything. Trust versions 4.x to 9.x of everything. Don't trust version 3.1 of anything.

is accurate for DOS 7.x/8 too, what about:
  • GRLDR4.4
  • GRLDR4.5
  • etc.

This would allow to have a (mild) similarity with actual release.

:frusty:
Wonko

#27 tinybit

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:38 PM

Well,
IF this (listed for MS-DOS 5.0):

is accurate for DOS 7.x/8 too, what about:

  • GRLDR4.4
  • GRLDR4.5
  • etc.

This would allow to have a (mild) similarity with actual release.

:frusty:
Wonko


I think it is not so good. Suppose in the future we have 1.0, 3.0, then what will we do?

For now we have to use 4.1 or similar, because that is what win9x had used. All those things occur, just because of Microsoft. We do all these things in order to meet the requirement of Microsoft. If we try to do two distinct things at the same time, we might tend to fail.

#28 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 03:54 PM

I think it is not so good. Suppose in the future we have 1.0, 3.0, then what will we do?

For now we have to use 4.1 or similar, because that is what win9x had used. All those things occur, just because of Microsoft. We do all these things in order to meet the requirement of Microsoft. If we try to do two distinct things at the same time, we might tend to fail.


Yep :worship:, but since we are now around 0.4.4 and 0.4.5, and it is more than one year that "current release" 0.4.4 has not changed, I assume that TEMPORARILY we could use this just to have a minimal "connection" with the actual release.
This "temporary convention" would be valid up to 0.9.9 without changes.

Trust versions 4.x to 9.x of everything.

should mean that starting from 0.4.4 we can have:
  • 4.4
  • 4.5
  • ....
  • 9.9

Without needing to invent any other workaround and still keeping some "sense".

The alternative is to "fix" the value to something that works, like GRLDR4.1 and leave it alone, no matter which grub4dos version actually writes the BPB.

:frusty:
Wonko

#29 steve6375

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 04:21 PM

Or use maybe

"G045_4.1"

or

"0.4.5_4.1"


and never change the "4.1"? or does it have to say GRLDR as that string is checked?

#30 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 04:34 PM

Naah, GRLDR was just a mnemonic.

  • G4D0.4.4
  • G4D0.4.5
  • ....

but you will have to "skip" a couple of "releases" that match the "don't trust" stoopid check, like G4D1.3.1 (to be checked)



:frusty:
Wonko

#31 tinybit

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:10 AM

Let's see what Microsoft said in its documents

BS_OEMName
FAT: General Overview of On-Disk Format

Version 1.02, May 5, 1999
Microsoft Corporation

“MSWIN4.1” There are many misconceptions about this field. It is only a name string. Microsoft operating systems don’t pay any attention to this field. Some FAT drivers do. This is the reason that the indicated string, “MSWIN4.1”, is the recommended setting, because it is the setting least likely to cause compatibility problems. If you want to put something else in here, that is your option, but the result may be that some FAT drivers might not recognize the volume. Typically this is some indication of what system formatted the volume.


Obviously, Microsoft told the lie: "Microsoft operating systems don’t pay any attention to this field."

But Microsoft also state that “MSWIN4.1” is recommended. How should we treat this recommendation? Note that grub4dos had paid a lot of attention on compatibility issue in the past.

#32 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:46 AM

Actually it seem to me that they don't really *lied*, they simply mis-led everyone, as they often do.

According to the info from the site I previously cited, the MS sentence:

Microsoft operating systems don’t pay any attention to this field. Some FAT drivers do.


Could have been completed as:

Microsoft operating systems don’t pay any attention to this field. Some FAT drivers do, including the ones embedded inside IO.SYS that do check for last three or four characters of the field, i.e. the version. This happens because the actual drivers were modified in the early days (actually nights) of computing to somehow try peeps like those from IBM, Digital Research and Compaq to get in our way. Nowadays, even if we actually won the battle (if not the war) nobody remembers those checks someone implemented at the time, so they are still there where they have been put.


The approach seems a lot like the more famous AARD red herring:
http://www.911cd.net...o...16754&st=31
http://members.ozema...firstpublic.htm
http://members.ozema...d/ddjletter.htm
http://davesource.co..._Out_DrDOS.html

Given that the info on:
http://homepage.ntlw...name-field.html
is accurate (and it does seem like it is), the "most compatible" string is "IBM 2.0"
grub4dos could "settle" with that. :worship:
*anything* else will have some compatibility problem, even if with not anymore used Operating Systems.

:worship:
Wonko

#33 sambul61

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:47 PM

I tested GRLDR followed by 3 NULLs, the result is the same as 3 spaces, failed.

tinybit

Sorry if it's a bit off topic, but Grub4DOS bugs related nonetheless. Can you comment in its thread on this bug revealed when booting an ISO from a logical volume on an extended partition? Any suggestions, workarounds, bug fixes expected? :worship:

#34 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 07:53 PM

Sorry if it's a bit off topic, but Grub4DOS bugs related nonetheless. Can you comment in its thread on this bug revealed when booting an ISO from a logical volume on an extended partition? Any suggestions, workarounds, bug fixes expected? :smart:


"a bit" :worship:

With the amplitude of your "bit" you could post the above on ANY thread ever posted on boot-land, or at least ANY thread EVER posted in:
http://www.boot-land...hp?showforum=66
:frusty:

JFYI, there are PM's if you want to specifically talk to some member of the board.

You cannot go on like this :worship:, it seems like every other post of yours is of the type:

BTW, can you do something for me on this other problem I do have?


Wonko disapproves of this. :worship:

:smart:
Wonko

#35 sambul61

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:24 PM

Wonko

I don't think you understand the nature of forum communication - surprised? If you read more attentively, almost none of the questions I pointed to are related directly to me or my needs. Besides, there are multiple issues that are interrelated, and are better be considered in one thread for common good - as I see it.

You need to understand that your opinion on any subject is not absolute, but compared to opinions, likes and preferences of multiple other members and visitors, and you may be wrong on some, or all of the issues you're trying to judge. :frusty: Besides, you're not a judge at all, but rather become an annoyance with such attitude. It looks like you're going to jump on every word I'll ever write - this is simply STUPID and RIDICULOUS. Many ppl are sick and tired of you poking your nose everywhere:

Ahhh; it's wonko the sane again with bad attitude; hmmm...just a typical Italian arrogant Mussolini; even when he knows he's completely wrong; by the way I checked that BUTT.... in your signature; guess what? I found nothing there but a stinky A.....HOLE with no Attitude..


Have you ever spend time thinking why ppl keep discussing your ass like that? :worship: The above is not my citation... How about this one:

I have often been depicted as an arrogant, hypocritical and despotic admin, which is unlike my natural attitude. :smart:

As long as this comes from new members it's allright, I can bear this burden with no problems, when it comes from people that have been members and contributors of the Board since it's very beginning or soon after it, it's a clear sign that the Rules or the way they are applied by yours truly do not reflect the expectations or the opinions of the community.

I find as fundamentally pointless to do a "social service" against the wishes of the community it should serve.


Do you recall this rare moment of truth you faced? Or maybe someone "encouraged" you to take "early retirement"? ;) :worship:

Regarding side questions, opening new threads to ask a side yet related question is neither rational, no it facilitates communication or makes the forum more readable. Besides, ppl often exchange concerns about similar or related issues when talking to each other - the forum is not a jail as you interpret it, but a fan place for hobbyists. On any forum slight deviations in threads are plentiful and most of the time welcome to make communication more alive. More, there're plenty off topic jokes on most forums.

You were told multiple times that forum members (me including) do not appreciate your obtrusive attitude. :worship: If I ask you a question, I'll thank you for an answer. No answer - it's not equal to disaster, so probably don't bother. Otherwise, pls nul and void. :smart:
Thanks for understanding someone else's point of view! ;)
I wanted to thank you again for helping other members, myself included. :smart: Life is full of controversies...

#36 tinybit

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:03 AM

tinybit

Sorry if it's a bit off topic, but Grub4DOS bugs related nonetheless. Can you comment in its thread on this bug revealed when booting an ISO from a logical volume on an extended partition? Any suggestions, workarounds, bug fixes expected? :worship:


Thanks for pointing me to that thread. But I am sorry I simply cannot grasp the spirit/purport of it after having read that long story for quite several times(possibly because of my poor English and/or my too-limited intelligence). Sorry again for being unable to reply.

#37 sambul61

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:38 PM

Hey tinybit ,

No problemo. I'm glad you seen it, since its well hidden, because it was started as part of thread series devoted to a common task. Just wanted to quickly point your attention to it, that's it.

Hope, you grasped the "Strange bug" discussed in this particular thread you read now, and it will be fixed eventually. Did you? One bug at a time... :worship: Thanks for the reply!

#38 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:59 PM

@Sambul61
Have you checked WHO is the Moderator of the present grub4dos Forum? :frusty: :hyper:

You are a lucky guy :smart: (you and the few others that take their time ignoring Rules of the board, "common sense advice" and like to offend me):
I was appointed Mod without my consent and consequently I will do NOTHING :worship: to clear the mess you started making with off-topic posts, pushing people, offending other members and their work and the like.

But for all you knew, you repeatedly flamed a Moderator of this Forum, and refused to comply to the suggestions he gave you.

The good thing :ph34r: of this is that I won't be accused of censorship and everyone will be able to judge himself/herself the contents of your (and your good friends') posts.

Instead of continuing this sterile war, you could run a poll to see how many peeps will support you in a request to Nuno to:
  • remove Wonko the Sane from his (inactive) status of Mod
    and/or
  • ban Wonko the Sane outright

This way you won't need to start behaving and you won't even need to reply to my opinions on your behaviour on the board (and no, they won't stop because of your flaming me, I have the right, just like any other member, to express my opinions).

Have fun.

:worship:
Wonko

#39 sambul61

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:37 PM

Wonko

To be honest, I don't think you need be banned permanently at this point, but to have a short break (so to say, a voluntary departure) to concentrate on diversifying your investment portfolio into this forum by adding more accomplishments to that short list you never published. :frusty:

You seems to feel deranged every time, ppl start dialog with each other directly instead of going through you - "how is that possible"! Pls stop swinging this thread OFF TOPIC. Its subject is fascinating IMHO. :worship: If I ever reply to your thread derailing attempts again, it will be all citations of what others think about your behavior, including yourself. If anyone flamed the Mod, it were you, as the above citations shown already. :hyper:

Pls understand, this is not a jail. Ppl should feel comfort and joy zone when participating in this forum, don't have to look behind the shoulder every minute or so. Of course order is important, but you seems to lack the ability to find that fine optimal line, which you in fact recognized in the above cited speech. Now follow your own expressed will. Bravo...Bravissimo!

#40 Sha0

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:38 PM

... ... ...
Instead of continuing this sterile war, you could run a poll to see how many peeps will support you in a request to Nuno to:

  • remove Wonko the Sane from his (inactive) status of Mod

No. You do a fine job of suggesting new threads appropriately, or appropriate forums.

and/or

  • ban Wonko the Sane outright

That's just silly.

This way you won't need to start behaving and you won't even need to reply to my opinions on your behaviour on the board (and no, they won't stop because of your flaming me, I have the right, just like any other member, to express my opinions).
... ... ...

Some people find your posts to be too harsh. Sometimes I've found your posts to be too harsh; not always. Perhaps you've been beaten down over the years by people ignoring discussion guidelines, forum rules, not asking the right questions (asking about xxx when their real goal is yyy), not providing information that's been requested of them... If you didn't have a "harsh" role, somebody else would.

#41 steve6375

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 03:57 PM

I second that! WtS is a very valuable member and moderator of this forum. I agree with 99% of the things he says, including most of what he said in this topic (sorry but I do find sambul61 often off topic or just wanting someone to present him with a solution to all his problems without actually finding out for himself how it all works - or doesn't work) :worship: . It is a shame that written text cannot transmit such things as wry smiles, winks and 'twinkles in the eye' when we post, despite the smileys that WtS populates his own posts with to show what is actually all going on behind his keyboard.:hyper:
We should be thanking 'Mr Sane' for the time and trouble he takes with us all!
Let us pick up all our toys and put them back in the pram, and don't take things so seriously, we are all trying to help each other!

#42 sambul61

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:23 PM

Do you believe, you don't violate the "rules"? You say BRAVO, because he doesn't follow you and jump at this point on every word you ever written, despite you might often "violate" the same "rules". Will see, what you say when that happen. What I suggest is more tolerance to ppl opinions and the manner they run dialog with each other. More friendly attitude to each other, not trying to shut up every new member to stay yourself afloat forever without meaningful ongoing contribution, only referring to 10-year old list of own long obsolete posts. :worship: Some ppl just can't tolerate fresh blood being injected into stream. I think that drives such ongoing intrusive behavior ppl keep complaining about.

So, yes, lets go back to the topic of this thread. But until this intrusive dilemma is resolved an effective way, it will keep affecting popularity and grows of this forum. Ppl create good things, they openly discuss their needs only when a suitable environment is offered to them. No "police state" ever shown signs of prosperity - that's history lesson.

#43 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:25 PM

.... without meaningful ongoing contribution, only referring to 10-year old list of own long obsolete posts.

Well, this besides false :frusty:, is also unfair. :lol:

Definitely my contributions to the board are not at the same level of some of what our good friend programmers and writers did and still do, but - maybe wrongly :hyper: - I have the personal belief that my half @§§ed batches and the help provided on the board - particularly in booting matters - are considered not too shabby by a number of other members. ;)

About the police state, you may want to try one, so you will understand the difference. :smart:
You have been UNkindly B) told how you should behave.
You decided to ignore this advice. (this is FREEDOM ;))
No harm, nor retaliation of any kind was made to you or to your posts, even those that infringed the Rules . (and this is also FREEDOM :worship:)

The peeps that used to whine about police state when I was Admin were AT LEAST right in the fact they had been policed. :ph34r:

:P

Wonko

P.S.: JFYI, I don't recall having ever seen Sha0 and steve6375 post something objectionable or off-topic. :worship:
Why don't you find such content by them, so that you will have some grounds for accusing them of breaking the Board Rules?

@Sha0 and @steve6375
Hey guys, thank you, but this is not yet the "Wonko" poll! ;)

#44 sambul61

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 05:39 PM

Wonko: "it's a clear sign that the Rules or the way they are applied by yours truly do not reflect the expectations or the opinions of the community." Did you say that? So, why you keep acting in the same admittedly failed manner? :hyper:

You admitted the wrong attitude, but in fact seemingly never put any effort to fix it - apart from claiming withdrawing from judging others. Yet you keep judging despite you said your judgments were consistently wrong AND you will NOT attempt to be a judge again (that's the batch file you evidently contributed to). Jumping consistently on someone's posts in every thread IS ongoing arrogant policing attempt. And now you keep derailing this interesting thread - why? :ph34r: Are you able to change with or without someone's help? :worship:

How can I help you? :frusty: Just want to give back sincerely, since you helped me in some questions as I said before, and I value that.

#45 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 07:04 PM

Wonko: "it's a clear sign that the Rules or the way they are applied by yours truly do not reflect the expectations or the opinions of the community." Did you say that? So, why you keep acting in the same admittedly failed manner? :worship:

You admitted the wrong attitude, but in fact seemingly never put any effort to fix it - apart from claiming withdrawing from judging others. Yet you keep judging despite you said your judgments were consistently wrong AND you will NOT attempt to be a judge again (that's the batch file you evidently contributed to). Jumping consistently on someone's posts in every thread IS ongoing arrogant policing attempts.:

There has been a misunderstanding. :lol:

I never said (let alone "admit") that what I did and how I did it was "wrong" in any way (actually it was in my view perfectly "right").
I simply took note how it was not appreciated by some of the other members, and since I am not as bad as I seem, I simply stopped managing the Board, thus removing the "cause" of the IMHO senseless accusations of censorship.
Currently I am not policing anything, I do what any member can do, and that is part of his/her freedom, i.e. expressing my personal opinions, that are not necessarily the same as those of the management.
If you call that "judging", yes it's one of the prerogatives of any member, and I don't see why I should refrain from expressing my opinions, obviously within the limits of Rule #7.


And now you keep derailing this interesting thread - why? :P Are you able to change with or without someone's help? :ph34r:

I thought your post was the one attempting de-railing this topic. :hyper:
Anyway, my apologies to steve6375 and tinybit for the de-rail, should they believe it's my fault.


How can I help you? ;) Just want to give back sincerely, since you helped me in some questions as I said before, and I value that.

I don't think you can, but thanks for the kind offer ;).
I particularly appreciate it's quid pro quo or do ut des approach ;) :
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Quid_pro_quo

I wonder what names you would have called me had I not helped you a bit. :worship: :frusty:


B)
Wonko

#46 sambul61

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:09 PM

Quoting your own words shouldn't be equal calling names - is truth so bad? So, you say the decease is incurable? :worship:

Despite everything you admitted, you still don't get it that your "vision" of a forum "order" doesn't match inspirations of most other participants expecting a forum to be comfortable and friendly communication medium?

HOPE DIES THE LAST.

#47 steve6375

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 07:22 AM

Any news on a new version of grubinst? I would like to try a fixed version?

#48 steve6375

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 04:14 PM

I have changed and recompiled grubinst.exe and included it in RMPrepUSB Beta v2.1.606. Also changed version of grub4dos grldr file and for grub4dos to NTFS PBR working as well.
@tinybit - The grubinst.c modified source file is in the Beta downloads section too. I just copied over the GRLDR string but not the following 3 bytes, so whatever the user had before is still left there (e.g."MSWIN4.1" --> "GRLDR4.1").

#49 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 04:58 PM

I have changed and recompiled grubinst.exe and included it in RMPrepUSB Beta v2.1.606. Also changed version of grub4dos grldr file and for grub4dos to NTFS PBR working as well.

Very good. :thumbup:

This way we have yet another "fork" of grub4dos.

Which version naming did you use? :1st:

I am sure both ENTROPY and CHAOS will be very happy for this unexpected helping you provided them. :cheers:

:cheers:
Wonko

#50 steve6375

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 05:29 PM

Bug was found 14 days ago and no-one has fixed it yet despite it being a simple fix and despite the bug being present for years when it is very obvious! I have made available the changed source code in the hope that Bean or tinybit may be prompted to provide a 'real' fix. Chenall says he is too busy. I would be happy to use a new 'official' version when/if one is released - what else can I do when the developers make no fixed version available? :1st:




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