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Are Live CD/DVD creations shared here ?


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#1 Rafales

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 01:38 PM

Hi,

This is a great forum with great minds working together to create Development Tools for Preinstallation Environment.

I want to know if the Creators / Developers share their Live CD/DVD Projects here, based on the Tools developed here?

I see only Development Tools. I couldn't find any Live CD if posted/shared here.

Regards
Rafales

#2 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 01:55 PM

I see only Development Tools. I couldn't find any Live CD if posted/shared here.


Microsoft files are generally speaking NOT redistributable, thus ANY "Live CD" based on Microsoft Operating System is NOT redistributable.

This forum is reknown for Winbuilder, NOT for WindownloaderofpremadeLiveCDs ;).

You give your own MS files, Winbuilder and one of it's projects builds the LiveCD (or whatever).


;)
Wonko

#3 Rafales

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 02:09 PM

Thanks Wonko for the reply.

I was looking for Live CD based on WinBuilder / BartPE / other PE Tools (sure not from Microsoft).

Please point out Live CD projects here. I need to recover some data from a crashed Hard Drive.

Thanks and Regards
Rafales

Edited by Rafales, 14 November 2010 - 02:37 PM.


#4 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 03:33 PM

Thanks Wonko for the reply.

You are welcome. ;)

I was looking for Live CD based on WinBuilder / BartPE / other PE Tools (sure not from Microsoft).

Still some disambiguation is needed:
  • ANY "PE" LiveCd is based on Microsoft XP/2003/Vista ;)/2008/7.
  • consequently ANY "PE" LiveCd is NOT redistributable

Please point out Live CD projects here. I need to recover some data from a crashed Hard Drive.

It depends on the original MS Operating System that you have available, there are projects to build a Live CD from most of them.

If you need to recover some data from a crashed Hard Drive, you won't normally use a "PE" of ANY kind.

I suspect that you are confusing the GOAL (recovering some data from a crashed Hard Drive) with the method (using a PE to do so). ;)

The right steps to recover data are:
  • image the drive on a "foernsically sound" manner to an image
  • possibly make a copy of this image
  • recover data from the image

Poor man's steps are (BEWARE more risk of failing with NO way back)
  • attaching the failed/failing hard disk drive as "slave" (if IDE/ATA) or through SATA/eSATA (IF SATA) or through a USB external converter/enclosure to a fully wotrking system (possibly capable of running ALL of DOS, Linux and Windows NT based system)
  • recover data from the disk or fix the disk

For BOTH of the above you DO NOT need a PE (and don't want to use one as it usually results in a more complex setup of the needed utilities).

So, IF the problem/question is:

I need to recover some data from a crashed Hard Drive.


I can try and help you ;), like in:
http://www.imdb.com/...t0110912/quotes

The Wolf: I'm Winston Wolfe. I solve problems.
Jimmie: Good, we got one.

;)

IF the problem/question is:

I need to recover some data from a crashed Hard Drive, AND I want to do it through a PE LiveCD.


I won't help you, as it is basically the "wrong" approach, all I can do is point you to some of the available LiveCD projects (once determined which MS NT based OS files you have available)

;)
Wonko



IF

#5 Rafales

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 05:14 PM

Hi Wonko,

Thanks again for the detailed reply.

Sorry Wonko for me being a bulb / Dumb. I'm just a layman and not a technical person.

Its too technical for me to understand what is PE(WindowsPE/VistaPE/LiveXP...), WinBuilder, BartPE, LiveCD and what members are developing here and why they are developing it. I really don't know why PE / WinPE / BartPE / WinBuilder was created and what is the connection between PE and LiveCD.

I heard people saying use LiveCD to recover data. Maybe those Live CD might contain recovery software's. I was looking for a freeware tool or a Emergency Environment(freeware) where I can see my dead Hard Drive and browse the partitions and recover / transfer my data to an External Media.

I don't know if the Hard Drive failure is of a Physical Damage / Logical Damage. But I want to try to recover the data.

I request you to give me Steps / Procedures on how to go about recovering my data from the Non-Bootable Hard Drive.

I won't help you, as it is basically the "wrong" approach, all I can do is point you to some of the available LiveCD projects (once determined which MS NT based OS files you have available)


Since there are lost of Windows versions from Win 95 to Win 7 and lots of PE Versions and different Flavors. I'm confused which PE is suitable for which windows version and how different is BartPE / WinBuilder different from WinPE.

My OS is Windows XP SP3.

Warm Regards
Rafales

#6 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 07:39 PM

My OS is Windows XP SP3.


Good. ;)

But you have it on a working machine or it was on the "dead" HD?

Post some details on the failed/failing disk:
  • interface (like ATA/IDE or SATA)
  • Make/model/size/number of partitions on it/type of filesystem
  • Whether you can mount it "directly" i.e. through it's ATA/SATA interface or you have a USB converter or external enclosure
  • Whether you have another hard disk BIGger than the one falling (and enough space on it) to create an image of the failing disk
  • DESCRIBE in your words WHAT happened, HOW it happened, WHAT actions you did BEFORE it happened (more generally the more the details you give the easier will be to understand the problem and hopefully help you)

The "reference" tools and probably the LiveCD you were suggested vaguely are usually DOS or Linux based, a very good one is the UBCD:
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/
(which is NOT PE based ;))

Post the info and get (and burn) the UBCD, and we'll see what can be done.

;)
Wonko

#7 Areeb

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Posted 14 November 2010 - 10:17 PM

Microsoft files are generally speaking NOT redistributable, thus ANY "Live CD" based on Microsoft Operating System is NOT redistributable.


I was wondering how some Live CDs such as Active Boot Disk Suite which is based on VistaPE are available to public... Do they pay some kind of licensing fee to Microsoft ?

And what about the Mini Windows XP Version in Hiren's Boot CD. Is that Illegal to distribute, such a copy even it is used for rescue purpose ?

#8 sbaeder

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 12:23 AM

I was wondering how some Live CDs such as Active Boot Disk Suite which is based on VistaPE are available to public... Do they pay some kind of licensing fee to Microsoft ?

YES

And what about the Mini Windows XP Version in Hiren's Boot CD. Is that Illegal to distribute, such a copy even it is used for rescue purpose ?

YES

#9 sbaeder

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 12:40 AM

Sorry Wonko for me being a bulb / Dumb. I'm just a layman and not a technical person.

Its too technical for me to understand what is PE(WindowsPE/VistaPE/LiveXP...), WinBuilder, BartPE, LiveCD and what members are developing here and why they are developing it. I really don't know why PE / WinPE / BartPE / WinBuilder was created and what is the connection between PE and LiveCD.

The only way to learn is to ask! "LiveCD" is a sort of generic term for an OS that is *live* (operational) from a CD. So technically, the output of a BartPE or WinBuilder could be considered a LiveCD. But as Wonko already said, USUALLY, that means one based on Linux (which is freely distributable - as long as you follow the "license" terms - i.e. GPL, etc.

So the connection is how was that LiveCD built! It may be DOS based (using either FreeDOS or some other form of DOS like OS), Linux, -OR- based on some of the files MS makes available either as part of the WAIK (Windows Advanced Installation Kit) or even part of the Windows OS. That is what Bart found out how to do and created the BartPE process/system/tool. WinBuilder is a different sort of tool, but at the end of the day, they do the same sort of thing. Take in "instructions" and use the files you already have a "license" to, and construct a new "live" OS that is commonly called a "Preinstallation Environment" (hence the PE)>

I heard people saying use LiveCD to recover data. Maybe those Live CD might contain recovery software's. I was looking for a freeware tool or a Emergency Environment(freeware) where I can see my dead Hard Drive and browse the partitions and recover / transfer my data to an External Media.

As mentioned, there are some good ones like UBCD and others (mostly based on Linux) that might be useful. Just look at Wikipedia - they have a long list here
that has a lot of different flavors and types of "live" CD based environments. Some come pre-built (usually using "free" operating systems) and others have tools to help you build your own (like the UBCD4Win, which uses your XP media and it's tools - based on BartPE - to build a bootable system).

Since there are lost of Windows versions from Win 95 to Win 7 and lots of PE Versions and different Flavors. I'm confused which PE is suitable for which windows version and how different is BartPE / WinBuilder different from WinPE.

My OS is Windows XP SP3.

Most important is that the tools are able to read the file system on the disk, and that is most likely NTFS, which most of the linux based tools can also read.

Good Luck!

#10 Rafales

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 01:23 AM

Thanks very much Wonko for the help and guidance. I shall post the details later after collecting the info.

thanks a lot sbaeder for the explanation and clarifications ;)

#11 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:36 AM

I want to clarify two aspects that are missing:

1. LiveCD's:
There are several DOS based LiveCD, the most known being the said UBCD.

There are ways to create Windows 95/98/ME based LiveCD's.

There are NO known ways (Freely available) to make LiveCD's based on NT 3.5, 3.51, 4.00 and Windows 2000.

Anything based on XP/Server 2003 Source is defined as PE 1.x and comprises the original MS WinPE 1.2, 1.5 and 1.6, ALL BartPE based projects, including Reatogo, Xpe, UBCD4WIN and of course many Winbuilder based projects, most known being LiveXP.

Anything based on Vista/Server 2008 is defined as PE 2.x and comprises the MS WinPE 2.0 and a number of Winbuilder projects, ost known being VistaPE.

Anything based on Windows 7 is defined as PE 3.x and comprises the MS WinPE 3.0 and a number of Winbuilder projects, like the various Win7PE's. To this you add the Wimb's Make_PE3 program.

In practice EACH and every Linux distro has a "LiveCD" version.

There are more OS that can work from a LiveCD, like ReactOS and Visopsys. (but they are mostly experimental/ummature at the moment).

2. Wrong perception
These (and other) LiveCD's and programs are ONLY tools.
Data recovery - unless something REALLY TRIVIAL happened, is a whole branch of IT.
Tools are needed, but they are NOT the only requisite.
Generally speaking people is thinking (thanks to most of the brilliant guys that create the Commercial utilities) that they can ALWAYS recover WHATEVER lost data by simply running one of those "smart" recovery programs, that need only a couple of clicks and will do "automagically" whatever is needed with 100% of success.
This is completely false. ;)
There is no definite, reliable probability of success, it may vary between 0% and 100% depending on a number of factors.
In some cases - even if possible - data recovery needs tools and knowledge and time well above the reach of DIY peeps.
This may well make data recovery impossible from a cost/benefit point of view.

The BEST approach to Data Recovery is ..... NEVER needing it! ;)

The threee GOLDEN RULES:
  • Backup
  • Backup AGAIN
  • While considering the reasons why and the consequence of the above two, BACKUP once again




;)
Wonko

#12 pscEx

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 01:48 PM

Anything based on XP/Server 2003 Source is defined as PE 1.x and comprises the original MS WinPE 1.2, 1.5 and 1.6, ALL BartPE based projects, including Reatogo, Xpe, UBCD4WIN and of course many Winbuilder based projects, most known being LiveXP.

When I understand correctly, even the "Third party PE Founder" Bart handled illegal due to the termes of M$ distribution rights.
Bart seems to be currently 'tolerated' as well as all WB projects inclusive my own 'nativeEx_...' and their childs like 'LiveXP'

And what happens when Billy the Door tells us: "I do not tolerate any more"? ;)

Peter

#13 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 01:54 PM

When I understand correctly, even the "Third party PE Founder" Bart handled illegal due to the termes of M$ distribution rights.


Not at all.

READ:
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/#licensing

Bart's PEbuilder or files available on Bart's Site have NEVER been breaching the MS license.

Users using it in difformity with their particular EULA, may.

And we have talked about the redistribution issues so many times.... ;)

....and still from time to time you come back with the same things....

http://articles.tech...11-6123118.html

;)
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#14 pscEx

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:25 PM

Maybe I'm coming back with the same things. But I ONLY want to know this:

many Winbuilder based projects, most known being LiveXP.

LiveXP is based on nativeEx_....
For me, the illegality of LiveXP is going back to the parent.
And as author of nativeEx_..., I do not know what I did different from Bart.

The 'May' in wonko's post gives a hint how by just adding a file, the legality converts into positive.
Maybe somebody can explain (Wonko's answer: 'YES') and does explain just in understandable words, and not by presenting links.

Peter

#15 HTML Tiger

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:31 PM

Hi,

This is a great forum with great minds working together to create Development Tools for Preinstallation Environment.

I want to know if the Creators / Developers share their Live CD/DVD Projects here, based on the Tools developed here?

I see only Development Tools. I couldn't find any Live CD if posted/shared here.

Regards
Rafales


You can download it from here
http://amalux.winbui.../lx77rc2cxw.iso

#16 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 03:54 PM

Maybe I'm coming back with the same things. But I ONLY want to know this:

LiveXP is based on nativeEx_....
For me, the illegality of LiveXP is going back to the parent.
And as author of nativeEx_..., I do not know what I did different from Bart.

The 'May' in wonko's post gives a hint how by just adding a file, the legality converts into positive.
Maybe somebody can explain (Wonko's answer: 'YES') and does explain just in understandable words, and not by presenting links.

Peter


WHAT THE HECK are you asking?

Redistributing Microsoft files is breaching the EULA. (regarding the NON redistributable status of the actual files as explicited in the EULA)

Distributing a program that takes user's files and from them makes a PE or PE like environment does not.

An user, by using unlicensed files and/or using the same files concurrently, and/or using the same files on different hardware (it depends on the specific EULA he got from MS), may breach the MS license. (regarding the specific limitations to the USE of the softwarte in the given EULA)

Can you understand the difference? ;)

Two different behaviours that violate the EULA:
  • the first violates the redistribution limitations (and is committed by those who host or make available or redistribute the non-redistributable files)
  • the second violates the use limitations (and is committed by whomever uses those files in any manner that is not allowed)

Redistributing a pre-made .iso containing MS files is a breach of the MS License regarding re-distribution.

The link HTML Tiger just posted, hosted on winbuilder.net by amalux is a blatant example of breaching the MS license about unredistributability of their files.

It is WAREZ ;).

ANY winbuilder project (including native-ex and LiveXP) is PERFECTLY legal as long as it does not include unredistributable intellectual property of ANYONE (not only MS) without respecting the Licence limitations the Author put to the software.

As you may remember, your ex-admin resigned exactly because he was not of the same opinion of the Owner of the board and of many members about the behaviours of several members offering unredistributable files for download, in contrast with Rule #1, which was never changed and it is now simply ignored.


;)
Wonko

#17 pscEx

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 04:58 PM

WHAT THE HECK are you asking?
Redistributing Microsoft files is breaching the EULA. (regarding the NON redistributable status of the actual files as explicited in the EULA)
[/list]

HERE MY HECK (IN CAPITALS, WHICH YOU LIKE SO MUCH): ;)
My concern was that I did something wrong in HoJoPE, buildModel, etc. and distributed UNINTENDED a copyrighted file in nativeEx_....

Right? Then please tell me the files.
Wrong? Then please give me the certification that my intention to publish only legal files is succesfully performed in nativeEx_...
BTW: In this case the easiest and most understandable answer would have been: "Inspite some childs leave the borders of legality, the parent is for 100% legal"

Peter

EDIT: Maybe because of a lack in my English knowledge, in the first view I misunderstood your intention. ;) Sorry for that. But my "BTW:" is still valid.

#18 Rafales

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

Hi Wonko your explanation is simple and Crisp. thanks ;)

regarding the failed hard drive...

1. My failed Hard Drive Interface is SATA

2. Seagate is the Model SATA 320 GB capacity.

3. My Mobo. does not have a boot from USB option(both my systems). Both my systems have DVD Drives.

4. I have another System 2 containing a large capacity SATA WD Hard Drive. Connecting my failed SATA hard drive in System 2, I don't how it will be recognized. Since both are SATA, the WD drive(working) is Primary(XP-SP3) and the seagate failed drive(XP-SP3) is also Primary(in System 1). If I connect my failed Seagate to the working system (both SATA) I don't know how the seagate one will be shown. I'm yet to try it.

5. I installed IBM Rational AppScan and I restarted my PC I get a Boot failure message. Unable to boot into OS (Disk boot failure). So how do I Image my Hard Drive for recovery. I don't have Norton Ghost. I want to try UBCD. Hope it has got Hard Drive Imaging Tools.

Either its an OS Corruption / Logical Error / Physical Error, will Imaging(if possible) be the first step for any kind of hard drive failures.

Regards
Rafales

#19 pscEx

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:56 PM

The link HTML Tiger just posted, hosted on winbuilder.net by amalux is a blatant example of breaching the MS license about unredistributability of their files.

I'm sometimes slowly in checking and understanding the THOUSANDS of links.

But now I got and understood one of them (the above mentioned).
@Nuno: If a M$ licence violation by an inside winbuilder stored file is known, why can you not simply delete / (send to DEF???) this file?

Peter

#20 amalux

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 06:29 PM

hosted on winbuilder.net by amalux

amalux has no control over what is hosted or the ability to delete these files, hasn't for a long time ;)

#21 pscEx

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 07:28 PM

@Amalux!

If I understand you right, there is a "storage" anywhere in the WinBuilder area, which is
#1 refering you as author
#2 you are not the author
#3 gives a link to some WAREZ
BTW: Can you tell us who is the "author"?

One more URGENT reason to @Nuno, to follow my above suggestion!

Peter

#22 vvurat

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 08:42 PM

So bad. It was my favorite and this hidden secret exposed and will probably removed from servers because of warez fobi. it stay there maybe one year. and nothing happened ;) need to add my archive before deletion

#23 Brito

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:01 PM

Bart's PEbuilder or files available on Bart's Site have NEVER been breaching the MS license.

Sorry to disappoint you, but BartPE 1.x was not only based on WinPE 1.x as it also distributed modified inf files to create the registry structure. It also distributed other MS binaries such as factory.exe until he was forced to create replacements.

Version 2.x and 3.x of bart's PE builder includes these inf files hard coded inside the main binary to obfuscate the fact that the code from these files is still present.


Bart seems to be currently 'tolerated' as well as all WB projects inclusive my own 'nativeEx_...' and their childs like 'LiveXP'

Bart wasn't tolerated. He was asked to remove the copyrighted files from his distribution package, which were then hidden from public sight ever since. He also changed slightly the INF code on his files (a.k.a. "plugins") so that they wouldn't resemble so much the INF format from MS albeit they are also translated at runtime before being interpreted by the MS INF engine.


On the case of ubcd4win, Ben was contacted by MS because he entitled his project as "Windows Ultimate Boot CD" while hosting the project on a domain called http://windowsubcd.com


As for LiveXP, NativeEx or similar derivatives, the building methodology is fully independent and was build from scratch. Peter, we did this back in 2005, remember?

---------------

One should also note that the times have changed for Microsoft. At that time in particular, they were trying to release a whole new product segment that was shattered with these free alternatives to the point that forced WinPE itself had to be released for free as well.

Right now things are getting even worse. MS Windows is losing ground to the competition that sees the Internet and the power of cloud computing as a platform agnostic ground. MS itself is devoted to "modernize" and follow this boat but if you try OSX or the latest Ubuntu you'll see that the casual users are getting less and less reasons to run on Windows and spend money on licenses.

#24 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 09:52 PM

Good. ;)

Now if anyone with Admin/Mod power would be so kind as to move the §ùç# out of here the hijacking and senseless posts,


@amalux
I have heard better excuses.
I guess that .iso materialized in your hosting space of winbuilder one night and when you found out what has happened you already lost control of your space.
Little green men are reknown to do things like that.


@psc_Ex
You need ASAP:
  • a course in English, that you appear like losing familiarity with every day.
  • a course in philosophy, to avoid quickly jumping to wrong conclusions on things you completely failed to understand because of the said language barrier
  • a certification Authority, to certify your project for whatever scopes you may need a certification ;)

@Nuno
I will rephrase:

never, in the last 7 (seven) years, and doubtly so before then

:
http://web.archive.o...2.nu/pebuilder/
http://web.archive.o...2.nu/pebuilder/
The fact that Microsoft asked (nicely) Bart to do something and he decided to comply DOES NOT imply that there was actually any "foul play" on Bart's side, since it was the first time that a similar thing was attempted, it is very likely that he, in perfect good faith, interpreted the EULA differently from what we do now, also based on previous experience.

On the case of ubcd4win, Ben was contacted by MS because he entitled his project as "Windows Ultimate Boot CD" while hosting the project on a domain called http://windowsubcd.com

This has NOTHING to do with Copyright on Software and with the EULA but with Trademark Laws.

@all
If we had enough hijacking and senseless posts, we may go back to the topic, which is:

"Trying to help user Rafales with the problem he has"

@Rafales
Don't worry about Primary and Slave, that only applies to IDE/PATA drives and NOT to SATA ones.
The WD drive must have enough free space to contain the whole capacity of the failed/failing drive, i.e. roughly 320 Gb if you want to make a forensic sound image of it.
Of course if you want to make an image, BOTH source disk and target disk should be connected to the same machine.
You could do DVD backups, but 320/4 sounds like 80 DVD or 40 double-sided ones. ;)
Or you could do this over the network but you don't specify whether those machines are networked and at what speed (10 Mb = LOOONG TIME, 100 Mb = LONG 1000 Mb = doable).
The best option you have is using your "working machine" and attaching to it the failed/failing drive.
And under your booted XP, run this program:
http://www.datarescu...cue/v3/drdd.htm

Post if you have any doubts about it's use.

;)
Wonko

#25 amalux

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 10:20 PM

@amalux
I have heard better excuses.
I guess that .iso materialized in your hosting space of winbuilder one night and when you found out what has happened you already lost control of your space.
Little green men are reknown to do things like that.

Maybe better but never more honest ;)

I uploaded that ISO for test purposes and never posted the link publicly. My ftp access to any and all files at winbuilder.net were subsequently removed without notice. So what exactly would you have me do? If Nuno or someone with ftp access wants to delete it, that's fine with me ;)




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