32 replies to this topic

[BiTByte]

hi,
i released the plop boot manager 5.0.11

here is the list of the changes from 5.0.10 to 5.0.11

Updates from 5.0.10 to 5.0.11:
CPU usage heavily reduced.
Graphic card init bug fixed.
himem.sys bug fixed - himem.sys was unable to enable gate A20 on some machines after the boot manager was running.
Update of the number of hard disk drives in the bios data area for booting usb reactivated.
Loading the network option rom from the main menu (+ new hotkey) to continue to boot from network.
Linux Kernel Command Line support for plpbt.bin - dynamic configuration with parameters.
FAT12/16 boot sector update - important to boot dos from 2nd, 3rd,... hard disk.
PCMCIA CardBus support for USB PC-Cards.
USB drivers updated.
Partition setup text 'VIEW/EDIT/COPY data' changed to 'Edit MBR/Import data'.
ISO files in floppy emulation mode are removed from the zip file.
PCI Bus scan updated (needed for PCMCIA).
Extention drive parameter scan for USB drives added and recalculating the number of hard disks. This should fix some troubles on PC's with grub and BIOS USB.
USB drivers updated to report the extention drive parameter v3.0.
Main menu hotkey 1-9 was not working for the last visible profile, its fixed now.

plpcfgbt updates:
Help page layout changed.
Now, the program reports a warning when plpbt.bin has an old config structure - before plpcfgbt 0.9 the program reported an error because of the config structure and stopped the plpbt.bin configuration.
New parameters are hiddenusb, hiddencdrom, skippcmcia, fastpcmcia.

The graphical frontend plpcfgbtGUI 0.1-test for plpcfgbt.exe released.

plpgenbtldr updates:
xo output removed.
plpbtldr.bin writes an error info text when there was problem with loading plpbt.bin.

plpchk.exe:
plpchk.exe is a new dos tool to detect plop usb driver from config.sys, from a batch file or from the command line. The program can create/remove a file that can be checked for existence and it returns the errorlevel code for batch files. You can run it in a hidden mode without any screen output.

plpdisd.exe:
Updated to disable the usb driver used in 5.0.11


Plans/ideas for next releases:
ATA (CF) PC-Card support.
Finish USB CDROM support.
Support USB 3.0.
Support PXE Splitted ROM's.


http://www.plop.at/e...mngrusblog.html

best regards
elmar

[sambul61]

Hi Elmar,

Thanks for the update and your great program! I'm new to Plop. Could you explain here and also add to your Readme file, how to uninstall Plop? In your Readme you describe various Harddisk installation scenarios and mention, how each affects uninstall, mention Complete and Short Uninstall, but yet say nothing on how exactly to unistall your program, and appear to not provide uninstall utility either. Why is that? I installed it to HD from DOS. It didn't create plpback.bin as far as I can see - why is that?

My questions are:

- how exactly to uninstall Plop? Why you don't provide this info and routing for users?
- why complete unistall is only possible from Floppy? Why not write plpback.bin when installing from DOS or Win Boot Menu?
- did you also update plpgenbtldr-0.7.zip for this release?
- My Plop install has only one USB Boot menu option. How to select a USB device to boot from, if several are connected to the PC? Ctrl option is not convenient compare to USB device list in Boot Menu.
- Why Plop Boot Menu isn't intuitive and device descriptive enough to find the right boot device easily?
- Why Boot from CD menu option doesn't result in booting from internal CD-Rom Drive (with Windows install & repair CD as an example)?
- can you add Boot from ISO option to Plop Boot Menu? Its long overdue given current ISO usage trends.

Edited by sambul61, 20 October 2010 - 12:58 PM.

[BiTByte]

....and do not provide uninstall utility either. Why is that?

because the install program is also the uninstall program. why do you need 2 programs when one program can do both things?

I installed it to HD from DOS. It didn't create plpback.bin as far as I can see.

then i think you used "plpinstc.com" and not "plpinst.com".
plpback.bin will be created only when you use plpinst.com. the C in plpinstc.com stands for CDROM and as you know, cdrom's are not writeable and so this installer version does not create the backup file plpback.bin. but this is written in the warning text when you start plpinstc.com. plpinstc.com is additionally always used when writing to a drive is not possible, like running from another boot managers and so on....

- how exactly to uninstall Plop? Why did you hide this info and routing from users?

hey, i do not hide this info. but i assume, when somebody is fit enough to use a boot manager then he can understand the option "UNINSTALL" in the installer program. the uninstall option is the opposite of the install option. simply choose it and the boot manager will be removed. is this really so difficult???

however, when you press ctrl-f on the boot manager site and you search for "uninstall", then you will find there infos too.

- why complete unistall is only possible from Floppy? Why not write plpback.bin when installing from DOS or Win Boot Menu?

uninstall is possible from dos!
why only floppy? because a floppy is writeable and an external storage and not affected when something bad happened with the hard disk.
the install program supports only FAT. when the install program is started from floppy, then there is a fat and the installer can write the plpback.bin (backup of modified sectors) to the floppy.
when the install program is started from the windows boot menu, then there is no connection to any partition to write the backup file. to provide the writing of the backupfile from the windows boot menu i had to add ntfs and partition mounting routines to the installer. thats a lot of work. when people don't want to install the boot manager to the hard disk, then there is still the option to run the boot manager from the windows boot menu without installing it to the mbr.

however, the complete uninstall with plpback.bin was made if something really bad happened when the boot manager was installed. normally its enough to write a new mbr when you dont want to have the boot manager any more. and this option is also available in the install program.

- did you aslo update plpgenbtldr-0.7.zip for this release?

yes, but only minor changes

- My Plop install has only one USB Boot menu option. How to select a USB device to boot from, if several are connected to the PC? Ctrl option is not convenient compare to device list in Boot Menu.

because the usb drivers are loaded on demand. one device after another is detected when you use the usb option. i have less then 32kb available to put all the boot manager to the place before the first partition starts. so i think the solution with the ctrl key is more that you can expect from such a small and feature rich program.

- Why Boot from CD menu option doesn't result in booting from internal CD-Rom Drive (with Windows install & repair CD as an example)?

the cd boot option in the menu is only for ide cdrom drives and you can boot any cd's/dvd's. i think you have a sata cd drive and sata cd drives are not supported (see FAQ).

- can you add Boot from ISO option to Plop Boot Menu? Its long overdue given current ISO usage trends.

no


regards
elmar

[BiTByte]

i forgot to answer the question "- Why Plop Boot Menu isn't intuitive and device descriptive enough to find the right boot device easily?"

1) the lack of no exceeding description is the space that is available for the boot manager (see previous post), but what do you expect? a device manager that gives you detailed infos in the same way like the windows device manager? however, you should know to which partition you installed your system.

2) "intuitive" depends on the knowledge of the user. i got much respond that my boot manager is intuitive and easy to use. however, booting is a complex topic and overall its an essential part of your pc. i never said you should use it. its like changing your door lock by yourself. do it wrong -> you can't enter, do it right -> everything is fine. its your choice to do it.

i try to make everything as easy as possible for users, but to which level of knowledge should i go? how to start a pc?

best regards
elmar

Edited by BiTByte, 20 October 2010 - 08:42 PM.

[sambul61]

Thanks Elmar for the detail clarification!

Surprisingly, I can figure out how to start a PC. Do enjoy your program as well, wasn't well aware of tight space limits. Still, when I see Hard Drive 01 and Hard Drive 03 (or similar) in Plop Menu, I keep guessing, by what rule it lists the drives. It would help to ID them exactly as they ID'd in BIOS, since that's where Plop gets IDs from.

Another thing "I should know" is partition count. Anywhere I looked, can't find a partition (sequential) number. In Disk Management they're listed left to right, starting from 0 or 1? In Device Manager - Disk Drives - Volumes, they're listed top down from right to left. Again go figure which one is 0 or 1 after all. Also, if a Linux partition is between Windows partitions, should it be counted at all, when booting with Plop?

More broadly, should a Linux partition be counted, when booting by any means, including Grub4dos, to Windows or ISO file located on Windows partition?

The only thing, you didn't explain - why Plop can't boot ISO images? I guess, its also due to space limitation - easy to guess. I do have a SATA CD-ROM though - that explains why it didn't boot. It looks from your answer, if one will type Help in Command Prompt after Plop installer's file name, all options get listed, including Uninstall - users should figure that out.

Thanks again for your very helpful program! I found it just recently, but can't imaging how to boot from USB in VMs without it. Given small size, this popular beauty is a piece of programming art.

Edited by sambul61, 21 October 2010 - 03:20 AM.

[sambul61]

To clarify about Plop Boot Menu listings:

HDC Partition1
HDC Partition2
HDC Partition3
HDC Partition4
HDD Partition1
HDD Partition2
HDD Partition3

See, drive letters are assigned to each drive partitions differently depending on what partition you booted from this time. So a user would need to translate Plop drive list into current BIOS drive list. Why don't name drives exactly like they're named in BIOS - by make and model?

Then a user would need to make convention with Plop on how to count partitions: from 0 or 1, from left or right (and which direction is towards drive axis). Some sources list drives from 0, but partitions from 1. Paragon lists partitions from 0. What about Plop? And are there any rules about it in Windows and Linux?

Also, I guess its possible to list all bootable connected USB devices in the menu, but call each USB device driver only after it's selected in Plop. You know well, ppl seldom read Help, so guessing about Ctr+Enter and scrolling btw devices is not the best choice, especially given non-intuitive USB device listings. Calling them as they're called in BIOS would help.

Finally, there should be a way to go back to Plop Boot Menu after making a wrong device choice instead of rebooting the system, similar to graceful retreat back in Grub4dos on Enter.

Edited by sambul61, 21 October 2010 - 05:18 AM.

[Wonko the Sane]

how to start a pc?

That's advanced!

1st step is to check if the power plug is FIRMLY inserted in the wall plug AND that you have paid your Electricity bill....



Seriously, thanks a lot for the updates, VERY good work!


Wonko

[BiTByte]

... Still, when I see Hard Drive 01 and Hard Drive 03 (or similar) in Plop Menu, I keep guessing, by what rule it lists the drives. It would help to ID them exactly as they ID'd in BIOS, since that's where Plop gets IDs from.

the boot manager checks the existence of 4 hard disks. 80h to 83h, those are the bios numbers. no labels or anything else. when you see hda then its the drive 80h and this is the first hard disk that the bios provides. the bios does not provide hard disk names. ok, they display them in list, but they do a direct hardware access and reading this info from the device. i would be able to do the same (like i do for ide cdrom drives + showing the device name when the driver was loaded), but this would mean that i have to write many sata drivers to access the hardware. a bios is specialized to a motherboard, so it needs only one sata driver. the boot manager must run on different hardware, so it became a never ending story of writing drivers. dont forget, the boot manager is no operating system.

Another thing "I should know" is partition count. Anywhere I looked, can't find a partition (sequential) number. In Disk Management they're listed left to right, starting from 0 or 1? In Device Manager - Disk Drives - Volumes, they're listed top down from right to left. Again go figure which one is 0 or 1 after all. Also, if a Linux partition is between Windows partitions, should it be counted at all, when booting with Plop?

it seems, you know only graphical interfaces. when you use text mode programs like fdisk or any clone of it, then you always get a list from top to bottom. hey, its only a way to display a table with data. and it should not to be so difficult to realize that "hda partition 1" is the first partition of the first hard disk, or?

More broadly, should a Linux partition be counted, when booting by any means, including Grub4dos, to Windows or ISO file located on Windows partition?

i dont understand what you mean.

The only thing, you didn't explain - why Plop can't boot ISO images? I guess, its also due to space limitation - easy to guess.

1) because the iso file is stored on a file system. to access the iso, i have to write drivers for file systems ntfs, ext2/3/4 and many more.

2) a new driver is required to provide the iso->cdrom emulation. that means, the boot manager will be bigger and there is no space left.

if one will type Help in Command Prompt after Plop installer's file name, all options get listed, including Uninstall - users should figure that out.

i dont think that many people are using the installation from dos. however, the readme.txt is available and the website too. they can get their infos from there.

To clarify about Plop Boot Menu listings:

HDC Partition1
HDC Partition2
HDC Partition3
HDC Partition4
HDD Partition1
HDD Partition2
HDD Partition3

See, drive letters are assigned to each drive partitions differently depending on what partition you booted from this time. So a user would need to translate Plop drive list into current BIOS drive list. Why don't name drives exactly like they're named in BIOS - by make and model?

described above

Then a user would need to make convention with Plop on how to count partitions: from 0 or 1, from left or right (and which direction is towards drive axis). Some sources list drives from 0, but partitions from 1. Paragon lists partitions from 0. What about Plop? And are there any rules about it in Windows and Linux?

section boot manager / 3. setup / 3.1 partitions
http://www.plop.at/e...tml#bootmanager

Also, I guess its possible to list all bootable connected USB devices in the menu, but call each USB device driver only after it's selected in Plop. You know well, ppl seldom read Help, so guessing about Ctr+Enter and scrolling btw devices is not the best choice, especially given non-intuitive USB device listings. Calling them as they're called in BIOS would help.

its no scrolling, its a detect device, display device, detect device, display device,... step by step. so a menu is not possible. why should i provide a menu, when people only want quickly to boot? i take me as example, the boot manager runs, i want to boot usb, i press "u" and usb boots. no long detection stuff like one bios of my pc's does (30 seconds to detect usb drives )

Finally, there should be a way to go back to Plop Boot Menu after making a wrong device choice instead of rebooting the system, similar to graceful retreat back in Grub4dos on Enter.

as long as the boot manager did not execute the mbr/boot sector, a return to the boot manager menu is possible. the boot manager does some checks and warns you and you get the choice to continue or abort. but i can not do thousands checks. people must take care that their booting devices are able to boot.
grub4dos also has only the possible fall back as long as the mbr/boot sector is not executed.

when the boot sector has been executed, then the operating system has the control. the boot manager does stay in the background and controlling what the operating system is doing that in a case of error the boot manager takes control and do something. a boot manager only initializes the boot of a system.

best regards
elmar

[sambul61]

Thanks Elmar for answering newbie's remarks! I'll check Edit Menu and some other features you mentioned. Sorry, I didn't get it, why Plop doesn't use exact device titles from BIOS? Also, I've 2 USB HDs and 1 bootable Win USB Flash drive with also bootable ISOs on it, hence the issue of picking the right USB device with Plop is there at each boot.

Again, Plop is very useful program, and I like it a lot. Now, if you look what's the share of newbies to expert users with 1K+ posts on this popular site, you may suddenly see my questions from a different prospective, and might even want to take care of some of the above issues in your next release or Readme file to broaden Plop users scope.

Edited by sambul61, 21 October 2010 - 12:00 PM.

[BiTByte]

Sorry, I didn't get it, why Plop doesn't use exact device titles from BIOS?

because there is no (common) way to get this info from the bios. the alternative to get this info from the bios is to write hardware drivers to read the title from the hard disk.

Also, I've 2 USB HDs and 1 bootable Win USB Flash drive with also bootable ISOs on it, hence the issue of picking the right USB device with Plop is there at each boot.

either you plug in the bootable device to the port that is checked before the other usb devices are checked. the ports are scanned always in the same sequence. or you change the "use mass storage device" in the setup (or with plpcfgbt when you use plpbt.bin)


regards
elmar

[sambul61]

When Plop loads, it shows USB drives, including Flash, as Hard Drives with all their partitions listed (numbered from 1). It also shows the same drives, when you select USB Menu option, using Ctrl - N. Why there is a need to list USB drives twice?

Also, if they're listed among hard drives, this info is presumably taken from BIOS. You said earlier, USB devices are queried one by one at a time you press N key. How then they appear on HD device list before any manual query is sent or USB option selected?

What's most troublesome, when a bootable partition on a USB drive is selected in HD list, it doesn't boot. At times it doesn't boot either, when the same drive is selected on USB device list. Why is that? Btw, when a USB drive has several partitions, how they're supposed to be listed in Plop USB Menu section?

Edited by sambul61, 23 October 2010 - 09:26 PM.

[bootluva]

@bitbyte, could this boot loader be used on devices like a xbox or ps2-ps3 ?

[BiTByte]

When Plop loads, it shows USB drives, including Flash, as Hard Drives with all their partitions listed (numbered from 1). It also shows the same drives, when you select USB Menu option, using Ctrl - N. Why there is a need to list USB drives twice?

some bios are providing access to the usb drive even when its not selected as boot device. those usb drives are shown like internal hard disks. when the boot manager scans at startup for hard disks, then the bios reports the usb drives as hard disks too and so those drives are listed in the main menu. when you boot such a device from the main menu, then the bios usb routines are used. when you use the usb option, then the plop usb driver is used to scan and access the devices directly without using the bios.

Also, if they're listed among hard drives, this info is presumably taken from BIOS. You said earlier, USB devices are queried one by one at a time you press N key. How then they appear on HD device list before any manual query is sent or USB option selected?

because the bios say that the usb drive is a hard disk. be happy, not every bios has this feature.

What's most troublesome, when a bootable partition on a USB drive is selected in HD list, it doesn't boot. At times it doesn't boot either, when the same drive is selected on USB device list. Why is that?

maybe you didn't make the usb drive bootable?

Btw, when a USB drive has several partitions, how they're supposed to be listed in Plop USB Menu section?

they are not listed. the mbr is loaded and you have to use a boot manager on the usb drive when you want to be able to boot more than one partition.
its not implemented because of the size limits.


regards
elmar

[BiTByte]

@bitbyte, could this boot loader be used on devices like a xbox or ps2-ps3 ?

it can not work with ps2/ps3

maybe it works with the old xbox, but a modchip is required

[sambul61]

Thanks Elmar for providing consistently precise answers.

If Plop takes info about drives from BIOS when available, including USB drives recognized by BIOS as hard drives, why don't take their names from BIOS and show them in Plop Menu?

When I say, USB Drives don't boot from Plop, I mean the following (all inclusive) popular scenario:
- Plop ISO is added to the boot menu of EasyBCD Boot Manager, and is booted (and seemingly normally appears and works) via "hd32" of the integrated into EasyBCD bootloader Grub4DOS;
- Two or more bootable USB hard or flash drives are connected to the PC;
- Each of the USB drives (in my case Sandisk Cruiser flash drive and Toshiba 2.5" HD in enclosure with JMicron USB controller) has Windows installed and can boot on its own without Plop, when selected as 1-st drive to boot in BIOS;
- Sandisk can boot via Plop time to time (not consistently, didn't check Toshiba), when Plop is installed independently of EasyBCD, which is not used.

If you have a bootable USB drive with WinXP or 7 installed, please TRY the above complete scenario, and see for yourself. It may be a driver issue, yet both drives are correctly (at least by name) recognized by Plop on Ctrl - N. I don't know how to make snapshots of the boot sequence before OS starts (do you?), so can't post pictures showing Plop hangs every time on USB drives, despite same drives boot every time, when selected in BIOS. Since convenience of using Plop is mostly in adding it to another boot manager to avoid frequent BIOS changes, it becomes a major hassle, since Plop simply doesn't boot USB drives in such scenario, when several are connected, and is very inconsistent, when only one USB is connected.

Edited by sambul61, 24 October 2010 - 03:44 PM.

[BiTByte]

If Plop takes info about drives from BIOS when available, including USB drives recognized by BIOS as hard drives, why don't take their names from BIOS and show them in Plop Menu?

because the bios gives only the info that hards disk are available (in you case regardless if its a real or usb) but the bios does not provide the info "sandisc cruiser" or whatever.

If you have a bootable USB drive with WinXP or 7 installed, please TRY the above complete scenario, and see for yourself. It may be a driver issue, yet both drives are correctly (at least by name) recognized by Plop on Ctrl - N. I don't know how to make snapshots of the boot sequence before OS starts (do you?), so can't post pictures showing Plop hangs every time on USB drives, despite same drives boot every time, when selected in BIOS. Since convenience of using Plop is mostly in adding it to another boot manager to avoid frequent BIOS changes, it becomes a major hassle, since Plop simply doesn't boot USB drives in such scenario, when several are connected, and is very inconsistent, when only one USB is connected.

i have no problem with booting from usb when 2 usb drives are connected. but i don't boot windows, i don't know if that is the problem. maybe its my driver in combination with your hardware, i don't know.

regards
elmar

[sambul61]

Here are some photos & snapshots of error messages when booting from Plop autocalled via NeoGrub (Grub4DOS) from EasyBCD Boot Menu, may be they can help to pinpoint the issue?

Plop hangs on booting Toshiba USB from HD List
Plop hangs on booting Toshiba USB from USB List
Toshiba USB boots WinXP from BIOS to C drive

Plop boots OK IDE & SATA HDs in this scenario. I was able to boot Sandisk Cruiser Flash time-to-time inconsistently with Plop installed independently on EasyBCD, and even at times with Plop from inside EasyBCD Boot Menu, when only one USB drive was connected. When Plop boots from inside EasyBCD, not sure, whether actual boot.ini or EasyBCD's own boot.ini (ebcd.001 file) is used, but they're the same in content. Plop boots XP from Sandisk flash most of the times in a VMWare VM, and it never boots XP from Toshiba.

Edited by sambul61, 24 October 2010 - 08:31 PM.

[BiTByte]

it seems you have to learn to understand what your pc is telling you

Plop hangs on booting Toshiba USB from HD List

NO, its no failure of plop.

1) as i said, when you use the usb drive from the main menu, then the bios usb is used. -> no problem of plop
2) you configured your windows to boot from c:, but when you try to boot usb from the main menu list and its not hda (not the first hard disk) then the usb drive had to be configured to boot from d: e: or whatever, depending on how many primary windows readable partitions are on the hard disks listed before the usb drive -> wrong configured windows

i know, now you are going to say "but when i choose it from the bios, then it works!", and i say, yes it works, because the bios remaps the usb drive as first internal hard disk (-> it became c:) and boots the drive. and before you ask, the plop boot manager does the same when you use the usb boot option. but when you choose a partition from the list, then it stays as second or third hard disk.

Plop hangs on booting Toshiba USB from USB List

i have no idea what you want to tell me with this screenshot. i can guess what happened, what you try to do, how isolinux is configured and what you have seen before this screenshot. but i don't want to guess.

regards
elmar

[sambul61]

Thanks Elmar!

Regarding "Toshiba not booting from Plop HD List", I got the reason you posted (one must select that USB drive as 1-st in BIOS), but not completely. Following same logic, how Plop can possibly boot a 2-nd or 3-d IDE HD from its HD List, when 1-st IDE HD is selected in BIOS as boot disk? If Plop has a routing to bypass that BIOS setting (some call Plop a BIOS Extender), why don't apply in next Plop release the same routing to USB drives presented in Plop HD List?

Regarding "Toshiba not booting from Plop USB List", as I explained above, Plop is incorporated into EasyBCD Bootloader as its Boot Menu item. When Plop is selected in EasyBCD Boot Menu, Grub4dos bootloader, also incorporated into EasyBCD, boots Plop ISO. Once Plop ISO has booted and presents its Boot Menu list, I assume its no longer relevant, by what means it was booted. You select a USB drive in Plop and its supposed to boot it, but it hangs. I did not configure ISOLinux, which I pressume is part of Plop routing to boot USB drives. The immediately preceding Menu is Plop Boot Menu List, before that its just EasyBCD Boot Menu. Keep in mind, this setup works time-to-time with Sandisk Flash (i.e. Plop boots it when called from EasyBCD via NeoGrub), but never works with Toshiba USB (JMicron USB enclosure chipset). Hence, the cause seems to be not in how Plop started, but in its driver not working with JMicron chipset correctly.

The reason I posted it, to give you a better idea what happen, and may be a better chance to fix it. Its NOT a critique of Plop, but only a constructive desire to improve its functionality and usability. The easy way for a developer to say may be that users are stupid. But at the end you write it for those stupid users I assume. If it doesn't work in a standard scenario of calling Plop from another Boot Manager (you say on your website, its a popular way to use Plop), it should be fixed. If there are flaws in its usability, as identified by users, they need to be addressed. That's how I see the whole point, but I was wrong before...

Edited by sambul61, 25 October 2010 - 02:55 PM.

[Virii]

Has anyone made any progress towards USB hub support, or is it not even planned?

[sambul61]

Elmar,

Here are extra pics you suggested. Plop Setup Menu was not changed, its default. The Menu is quite rich on options, but a little drive names ID automation would help users, creating a comfort zone.

EasyBCD Boot Menu
Plop Boot Menu
NeoGrub & Plop Config
Plop waits to load Toshiba USB bootsector
ISOLinux loads Plop, and it hangs on booting Toshiba USB enclosure with JMicron chipset
Plop hangs on loading empty Y-Data Card Reader

I assume, you got the picture. Is that your USB driver issue?

Edited by sambul61, 25 October 2010 - 07:45 PM.

[BiTByte]

Here are extra pics you suggested. Plop Setup Menu was not changed, its default. The Menu is quite rich on options, but a little drive names ID automation would help users, creating a comfort zone.

for the plop boot manager 5.0.x series, hda - hdd must be enough and i say it again/the last time, there is no generic way to read the device name without accessing the drive directly.

only cardreaders with a card inserted will work, there is no check for empty cardreaders
not all cardreaders are designed in the same way that is supported by the plop boot manager because they need a special configuration or hub support and there was no space left to add this tothe boot manager.

btw. what boot manager version are you using

regards
elmar

[sambul61]

Elmar,

EasyBCD installs Plop from its own .exe, its V5.0.x (didn't check, but you can see by file dates on my pic above). I just replaced it with V5.0.11 , and the result is similar. Here are my test results:

On a real PC (regardless on how many USB devices are connected):
- Plop hangs on booting Toshiba USB to black screen without messages;
- Plop hangs on booting Sandisk Blade causing immediate PC reboot;
- Plop hangs on finding empty Y-Data Card Reader (it should offer to find next USB device).

On a VMWare VM (all devices are represented as generic VMWare USB device):
- Plop boots Sandisk Cruiser, Toshiba USB, and offers to find next device after checking empty Y-Data Card Reader and finding no boot sector;
- Plop always hangs on booting a second USB device regardless what device is it. Yet it always boots the 1-st USB device after some initial training.

Hence, no lack so far on booting any USB device I've with Plop on a PC. Yet Plop V10 booted at times Sandisk Cruiser. What's interesting, initially Plop hangs several times on booting any USB device inside a VM, then it adapts somehow and starts booting the 1-st USB device every time. Given the fact its not a writable .iso, and the VM has no OS installed, how such stable adaptation is possible? Possibly the WinXP VM writes own logs about successful system boot, which Plop accesses next boot to refine its device boot params (I guess its too much for Plop to handle).

Edited by sambul61, 26 October 2010 - 03:28 AM.

[sambul61]

Another issue that came up with Plop V11, when having several drives connected to a PC:

- when choosing from Plop Hard Drive Boot Menu any bootable partition of the 1-st boot drive selected in BIOS, it boots OK;
- when choosing a bootable partition from any other HD (not the 1-st one), Plop hangs with "Invalid boot.ini file" error message.

Well, of course, when connecting different drive combinations to the PC periodically, each of their partitions' boot.ini files points to 0 drive, as it may be the only drive used next time. Again, since Plop is called a BIOS Extender, its expected to perform just that role, meaning in this scenario that once you select a particular drive and partition from Plop HD Boot Menu, it will interpret its boot.ini such a way that allows to boot from that partition despite its not on the 1-st drive this time in BIOS settings. In other words, if the boot.ini says "rdisk (0)", Plop should interpret it as "rdisk (n)", where "n" is the position of the drive this time in BIOS drive lineup.

Another suggestion along the same lines would be for Plop to search for boot.ini, when its missing on the volume, which is the case, when EasyBCD is installed on another volume of the same drive. Let say, EasyBCD is installed on a Win7 volume, and includes in its boot menu a WinXP volume on the same drive. In this case EasyBCD will delete boot.ini on WinXP volume and add ebcd.001 file in Win7 root. Plop can search, read and re-interpret ebcd.001 on Win7 volume instead of boot.ini on WinXP. What I mean, is a bit more intelligent treatment of found boot irregularities. I hear your answer: "limited file size". But the point is, in a system with periodically changed drive combo Plop doesn't work as expected by a (stupid) user. For Plop to work, BIOS settings must be changed each time, thus making Plop redundant.

Trying to be objective, Grub4DOS, when installed separately on each HD, neither works properly in described scenario, unless bended dynamically via typing config entries at boot time. Say, I boot from 1-st drive, then select Grub4DOS in its boot menu, then select a second drive in Grub4DOS menu, then select Grub4DOS in the 2-nd drive menu once opened, and it fails to boot from an ISO file located on a volume on the 2-nd drive due to no intelligent volume remapping.

Edited by sambul61, 29 October 2010 - 07:15 PM.

[BiTByte]

Again, since Plop is called a BIOS Extender, its expected to perform just that role, ...

i never called it BIOS Extender

But the point is, in a system with periodically changed drive combo Plop doesn't work as expected by a (stupid) user. For Plop to work, BIOS settings must be changed each time, thus making Plop redundant.

it does not work like you expect, but that does not mean that it works wrong.