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Boot windows from extended partition


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#26 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 28 May 2010 - 03:09 PM

Good. :w00t:

What happens, I mean what can you see when you try :
title Boot HDD1, sda6

		rootnoverify (hd0,5)

		chainloader +1

;)
A blinking cursor, a completely blank (black) screen, and error message, a BSOD, nothing at all, a reboot....

Can you detail how the disk is partitioned?
(that seems a lot like the second logical volume inside extended)

I am not saying at all that the 8Gb limit may be involved, I am only saying that you have no proper grounds to affirm it is not. :cheers:

Can you post a copy of the MBR and EPBR and bootsector of the logical volume?

The BOOT.INI settings have nothing to do with the needed fixes to the bootsector, I will try again, have you checked that the number of sectors before has been corrected by GHOST :ph34r:? (and that they have been corrected properly)

I mean THIS check:
http://www.goodells....boot/ptedit.htm

Or, what happens if you actually do what you were going to do last time :cheers::

- use grub4dos to chainload the actual NT loader (NTLDR), no need to do "Fixing Boot Records in Logical Partitions", no need to worry the 8-GB Boundary


:thumbsup:
Wonko

#27 xpt

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 02:38 AM

Thanks for you reply, Wonko.

What happens, I mean what can you see when you try :

title Boot HDD1, sda6

		rootnoverify (hd0,5)

		chainloader +1


chainloading with plain grub, nothing happens, 2 line of info saying something like "booting ...", then nothing at all, HD light never flash. I waited for 5 minutes then reboot myself.

If chainloading with grub4dos, machine reboots immediately.


> Can you detail how the disk is partitioned?
> (that seems a lot like the second logical volume inside extended)

sda1, active primary, 1G, Linux
sda2, primary, 4G, NTFS, WinXP
sda3, extended
sda4, empty
sda5, linux swap, 500M
sda6, logic, 4G, NTFS, WinXP

So the 8Gb limit is actually irrelevant here.

> Or, what happens if you actually do what you were going to do last time

No, I wasn't able to test all these until now. What I was doing was to conclude from what I had been reading thus far. I thought I was using grub4dos to chainload the actual NT loader (NTLDR), but I realized that you meant something different. So I gave it a try:

title Boot Windows XP on (hd0,1)

  root (hd0,1)

  chainloader /ntldr 



title Boot Windows XP on (hd0,5)

  hide (hd0,1)

  root (hd0,5)

  chainloader (hd0,5)/ntldr

(hd0,1) boots fine, when trying to boot (hd0,5), I get:

Invalid BOOT.INI file

Booting from C:\windows\

NTDETCT failed.

I'll skip the rest of the questions because I believe they all related with booting with windows boot manger, not grub4dos.

Can you post a copy of the MBR and EPBR and bootsector of the logical volume?

The BOOT.INI settings have nothing to do with the needed fixes to the bootsector, I will try again, have you checked that the number of sectors before has been corrected by GHOST :thumbsup:? (and that they have been corrected properly)

I mean THIS check:
http://www.goodells....boot/ptedit.htm



#28 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:44 AM

Thanks for you reply, Wonko.

Thanks my sock! :thumbsup:

I'll skip the rest of the questions because I believe they all related with booting with windows boot manger, not grub4dos.


Fine :cheers: , I'll skip the rest of the answers and suggestions :cheers: because I believe that until you don't assume an approach based on the things that we discussed INSTEAD of basing your tests on ASSUMPTIONS and semi-random attempts taking bits and pieces all over the net without filling the obvious gaps, it will be wasted time.


:cheers:
Wonko

#29 karyonix

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:01 AM

For Windows XP, you only need ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini in active primary partition of boot disk.
Windows directory and all other files can be in logical partition.

If you don't want FAT/NTFS active primary partition, you can still boot Windows in logical partition from floppy disk.
Just put ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini in a floppy disk and boot ntldr in it.

If you don't want to use real floppy disk, use a fake one.
  • Use ImDisk or other tool to create a 1440-KB floppy disk image "floppy.img" in your Windows logical partition.
  • Format it.
  • Copy ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini into it.
  • Make sure partition number in boot.ini is correct.
    From your partition layout. Here is GRUB4DOS partition number and boot.ini partition number.
    sda1 = (hd0,0) = partition(1), active primary, 1G, Linux
    sda2 = (hd0,1) = partition(2), primary, 4G, NTFS, WinXP
    sda3 = (hd0,2) = - , extended
    sda4 = (hd0,3) = - , empty
    sda5 = (hd0,4) = partition(3), linux swap, 500M
    sda6 = (hd0,5) = partition(4), logic, 4G, NTFS, WinXP

    Your Windows XP logical partition is (hd0,5) in GRUB4DOS and partition(4) in boot.ini.

    boot.ini in floppy should be like this
    [boot loader]
    
    timeout=30
    
    default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(4)\WINDOWS
    
    [operating systems]
    
    multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(4)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect /pae
  • Unmount virtual floppy
  • Create entry in your menu.lst.
    title Boot Windows XP on (hd0,5)
    
      map (hd0,5)/floppy.img (fd0)
    
      map --hook
    
      chainloader (fd0)/ntldr

You should also make sure you have correct \DosDevices\* values in MountedDevices key in system hive in your Windows logical partition.
If the source Windows is in C:, \DosDevices\C: should contain disk signature and partition offset of your Windows logical partition.

#30 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:50 AM

For Windows XP, you only need ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini in active primary partition of boot disk.
Windows directory and all other files can be in logical partition.


Well, the whole point is that you can "fix" a logical partition inside extended and have also NTLDR, NTDETECT.COM and BOOT.INI on it.

http://www.goodells....iboot/index.htm

Fixing Boot Records in Logical Partitions
A logical volume in the extended primary partition does not usually contain an operating system, and there is not normally a boot record there. (Okay, maybe there's technically a "boot sector", but it's normally blank unless we put an OS there.) If we put an OS and boot record there we need to check the boot record to make sure it knows where to find itself. Petr Soucek has documented that a key parameter in the partition boot sector may prevent an OS from booting from an extended logical partition. This parameter, "Hidden Sectors", should be the total number of sectors on the disk preceding the partition, but for a logical partition the value may be incorrectly initialized by the tool used to create or manipulate the partition. Sometimes it is the number of sectors from the start of the extended partition (e.g., 63) instead of from the beginning of the disk. If this number is incorrect the OS cannot determine where the other sectors of its own partition are and the boot process hangs. Powerquest's Partition Table Editor may be used to fix the "Hidden Sectors" parameter in the partition boot record of any OS's installed in logical partitions. Partition boot records in primary partitions are normally okay



http://www.goodells....boot/ptedit.htm

grub4dos can fix the Sectors before without need of PTEDIT or a similar tool, by using the partnew command (a free entry in the PT of MBR is needed, or you need a more complex workaround) or use the map --in-situ command to TEMPORARILY fix the problem.

:thumbsup:
Wonko

#31 karyonix

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:49 PM

You are right.
After logical partition's "number of hidden sector" (4 bytes at offset 0x1C) is fixed, it can boot from its PBR to NTLDR and Windows XP.
No virtual floppy is required.

#32 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 01:42 PM

You are right.


Hmm :cheers:, I though that was an initial AXIOM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

;)

:cheers:

:thumbsup:
Wonko

#33 xpt

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 03:55 AM

If one bases his action on false perception, he would surly go the wrong route.

Please check the post
http://www.boot-land...amp;#entry97717
I concluded that based on all my previous readings, and asked specifically if the conclusion is correct. Please read it again, especially, the conclusion (if) use grub4dos to chainload the actual NT loader (NTLDR), no need to do "Fixing Boot Records in Logical Partitions"

Thanks

#34 karyonix

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 06:15 AM

From my test this is wrong.

(if) use grub4dos to chainload the actual NT loader (NTLDR), no need to do "Fixing Boot Records in Logical Partitions"

Partition that contain ntldr, ntdetect.com, boot.ini must have correct number of hidden sector in its partition boot record.
  • Primary partition, correct number of hidden sectors
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)+1" boot success
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)/ntldr" boot success
  • Logical partition, wrong number of hidden sectors
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)+1" boot fail
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)/ntldr" boot fail
  • Logical partition, corrected number of hidden sectors
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)+1" boot success
    - "chainloader (hd0,x)/ntldr" boot success


#35 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 09:41 AM

OK, I now see the problem. :cheers:

A misunderstanding, definitely my fault. ;)

I meant another thing, I now understand how I wasn't clear enough, sorry. :cheers:

Whilst the Dan Goodels tutorial is about the NEED of hexediting the volume to correct the previous sectors, and the volume NEEDS to have a bootsector invoking NTLDR, using grub4dos you do NOT *need* these "fixes" as grub4dos can "fix" them on the fly. (but you still need to "tell it" to do the fixes :thumbsup:).

If, instead of using chainloader (hd0,x)+1 you use chainloader (hd0,x)/ntldr, the bootsector code can be whatever (or even be completely missing).

To correct the "sectors before" there are TWO methods:
  • Using the partnew command:

    If you have an empty partition entry in the main MBR (as you should have) you can use partnew to create a new primary partition entry pointing to the logical volume inside extended, during this process the "sectors before" will be automatically and PERMANENTLY corrected .
    Example, say you have a logical NTFS partition that you want to boot (hd0,5) and an empty partition entry in the main MBR (hd0,3):
    partnew (hd0,3) 0x07 (hd0,5)+1
    this will create an entry in last entry of the main MBR and correct the "sectors before" in the partition bootsector automatically and PERMANENTLY.
    Then you can:
    root (hd0,3)
    
    chainloader /ntldr
    
    boot
    to boot or:
    partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0
    reset the empty entry and chainload normally the logical volume
    root (hd0,5)
    
    chainloader /ntldr
    
    boot
  • Using the map --in-situ command, create a TEMPORARY fix:
    map --in-situ (hd0,5)+1 (hd0)
    
    root (hd0,5)
    
    chainloader /ntldr
    
    boot
    this will correct the "sectors before" in the partition bootsector automatically and TEMPORARILY.
this latter method is extremely convenient as it doesn't "touch" anything, and you can boot from a logical volume "on-the-fly", this is what I meant, when I said you don't need to correct the values if using grub4dos....

:cheers:
Wonko

#36 xpt

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 12:49 AM

Thanks a lot for your replies, karyonix & Wonko.

Continue on the topic in
http://www.boot-land...?...=11675&st=0
because the discussion is now specifically focused on Grub4dos...

thx

#37 karyonix

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 02:07 AM

If you don't have empty entry in partition table, you can still use partnew command.
Just backup old MBR somewhere, use partnew command, and restore old MBR.

Example (adapted from Wonko's example above)
# Backup old MBR+partition table to RAM (address 32MB)

dd if=(hd0)0+1 of=(md)0x10000+1

# Fix "sectors before" field in (hd0,5) PBR.  Change first entry in partition table. 

partnew (hd0,0) 0x07 (hd0,5)+1

# Restore old MBR+partition table from RAM (address 32MB)

dd of=(hd0)0+1 if=(md)0x10000+1


#38 Sha0

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Posted 12 June 2010 - 02:17 AM

Also, instead of choosing a memory address at random and ignoring the possibility that the RAM is used by someone, you can do this:
...

# Establish a buffer in usable memory

map --rd-size=2048

map --mem (rd)+4 (0x55)

map --rehook

# Backup old MBR+partition table to the buffer

dd if=(hd0)0+1 of=(0x55)0+1

# Fix "sectors before" field in (hd0,5) PBR.  Change first entry in partition table. 

partnew (hd0,0) 0x07 (hd0,5)+1

# Restore old MBR+partition table from buffer

dd if=(0x55)0+1 of=(hd0)0+1


#39 xpt

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 01:27 AM

That's really a great news to me, because the machine that I want to boot WinXP from, really doesn't give me the option to have a free primary partition. My current primary partitions are:

- Factory default partition to store all factory default tools
- Win vista, which I don't want to destroy
- Linux, my prime boot partition that dispatch actual boots
- Extended partition,

I know I can move Linux to logic partitions and boot from there with some special MBR, but that's considered too dangerous to me... anyway, back to the topic,

Thanks for the example code, karyonix & Sha0,that's extremely useful for me to put all jigsaw puzzles together. One further question ...

If you don't have empty entry in partition table, you can still use partnew command.
Just backup old MBR somewhere, use partnew command, and restore old MBR.


at which point in the above steps should I boot the logical partition then? Before restore or after restore?

thanks

#40 karyonix

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 02:42 AM

In these examples MBR is saved in RAM. You should restore MBR immediately after partnew command.
If you run any other program or turn off or reboot before restoring old MBR, your old MBR is lost (unless you have MBR backup in file in another drive).

You do partnew & restore old MBR only once. The change are permanent.

After that you can try to boot logical partition with 'chainloader (hd0,5)/ntldr' whenever you want.

#41 xpt

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 04:16 AM

. . .
You do partnew & restore old MBR only once. The change are permanent.

After that you can try to boot logical partition with 'chainloader (hd0,5)/ntldr' whenever you want.


Ah, thanks.

One further question, I want to put it in a "template" menu entry. By "template" menu entry, I mean for example, I have "Boot HD1 P1" template entry in my grub4dos menu, when I try to boot other partitions, I just edit it, then press 'b' to let it boot.

is it possible to do the same here? I mean, how can I tell grub4dos to go ahead with the amened menu entry, then return to menu again?

Thanks

#42 karyonix

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Posted 13 June 2010 - 10:58 AM

If there is no kernel/chainloader/configfile/reboot/halt command in a menu item, you cannot select it with up/down key but you can select it with left/right key and press Enter to execute or E to edit and then B to execute.
When last command in non-boot menu item completes, it return to menu automatically.

#43 xpt

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 09:45 PM

Hi,

Sorry for responding late -- you can tell from my posts in other forums that I was busy. Let me first explain what took me so long, before getting into "business".

When trying the following out, almost everything failed on me and I had almost retreated to the "stone-age" to get things going.

I attempted 2 types of windows install, ghost restore and direct windows install, each having 2 or more different CDs. BTW, you've got to be a Chinese in order to understand why there are so many ways to install windows instead of just one, the official one. FYI, just to proof that I am not lying, :-), I've been trying, "GHOST XP SP3 2010 V2.0 统一纯净版", which has been working for me fine before, then "GHOST XP SP3 2010 V2.1统一会员纯净版", when all these ghost restore didn't work, I reverted to direct windows install, using "WinXP SP3 2009 v1.3精简安装版(220MB)", then "深度 Windows XP SP3完美精简 V6.2版[215M小盘]" produced in 2008年6月13日, then "Windows XP Professional and Retail All-in-one SP3". Nothing worked. All crashed with blue screen saying something like plug and play driver error.

This is not only tested on a single machine, but two entirely different ones. All get the same result. Only when I reverted to "Win2K Professional (SP4, RU1-V2)" when I was finally able to see windows installation finished to the end.

Meanwhile, my USB Linux boot failed on me as well, and even booting primary windows partition using grub4dos failed on me too! So I reverted booting grub4dos from USB back to CDROM. Then things started to move forward. Moreover, I've repartitioned my HD just to test out the following word for word.

All I want to say is that I've met with tremendous difficulties, but all solved by myself, but not the following:

To correct the "sectors before" there are TWO methods:
[list=1]
[*]Using the partnew command:

If you have an empty partition entry in the main MBR (as you should have) you can use partnew to create a new primary partition entry pointing to the logical volume inside extended, during this process the "sectors before" will be automatically and PERMANENTLY corrected .
Example, say you have a logical NTFS partition that you want to boot (hd0,5) and an empty partition entry in the main MBR (hd0,3):

partnew (hd0,3) 0x07 (hd0,5)+1
this will create an entry in last entry of the main MBR and correct the "sectors before" in the partition bootsector automatically and PERMANENTLY.
Then you can:
root (hd0,3)

chainloader /ntldr

boot
to boot or:
partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0
reset the empty entry and chainload normally the logical volume
root (hd0,5)

chainloader /ntldr

boot


Been there, done that, word for word. Didn't work for me.

root (hd0,3)

chainloader /ntldr

boot
to boot or:
partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0
reset the empty entry and chainload normally the logical volume
root (hd0,5)

chainloader /ntldr

boot

both failed; chainloading PBR with

root (hd0,5)

chainloader +1

boot

Gave me the same error as well. something like,

windows32\ntoskrnel.exe missing or corrupted.

I am now, as McTavish put, "lose the will to live". Yeah, I like that expression, :-) .

#44 Sha0

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 10:13 PM

...BTW, you've got to be a Chinese in order to understand why there are so many ways to install windows instead of just one, the official one. FYI, just to proof that I am not lying, :-), I've been trying, "GHOST XP SP3 2010 V2.0 统一纯净版", which has been working for me fine before, then "GHOST XP SP3 2010 V2.1统一会员纯净版", when all these ghost restore didn't work, I reverted to direct windows install, using "WinXP SP3 2009 v1.3精简安装版(220MB)", then "深度 Windows XP SP3完美精简 V6.2版[215M小盘]" produced in 2008年6月13日, then "Windows XP Professional and Retail All-in-one SP3"...

What does this mean? Why do you have to match the criteria you mention in the quotation? I don't understand the requirement, let alone its proof.

Please provide the Blue Screen of Death error code.

What is the ARC path in your BOOT.INI file? Does it match with whatever MBR you are spoofing in-memory?

#45 xpt

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:17 PM

What does this mean? Why do you have to match the criteria you mention in the quotation? I don't understand the requirement, let alone its proof.


I don't quite understand what you mean, but anyway, let's forget about it.

> Please provide the Blue Screen of Death error code.

Don't worry, if I want to fix it, I most probably would ask in a better place than boot-land.net, at least in a different thread.

> What is the ARC path in your BOOT.INI file? Does it match with whatever MBR you are spoofing in-memory?

Ah, good question, I believe that my Ghost is decent enough to fix BOOT.INI for me, but it is worthwhile to double check.

Yes, my Ghost is decent enough to fix BOOT.INI for me, but strange, it changes "partition(2)" to "partition(9)".

Let me fix it to "partition(4)", according to karyonix's suggestion (
http://www.boot-land...?...054&st=20#)

Nope, still get

windows32\ntoskrnl.exe missing or corrupted.

Again, here is detail how the disk is partitioned:

sda1, active primary, 1G, Linux
sda2, primary, 4G, NTFS, WinXP
sda3, extended
sda4, empty
sda5, linux swap, 500M
sda6, logic, 4G, NTFS, WinXP

let me zero out the (hd0,3) with

partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0

. . .

#46 xpt

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:22 PM

let me zero out the (hd0,3) with

partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0

. . .


YES! Windows boots from the logical partition!

Horay!!!

Thanks *everyone* who helped!!!

#47 maanu

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:04 AM

YES! Windows boots from the logical partition!

Horay!!!

Thanks *everyone* who helped!!!


a short Each Step-Detail will be very much appreciated , i mean your travel to your destiny in short steps :thumbup:

otherwise i'd have to open each post to view whole thread..

#48 Wonko the Sane

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 09:01 AM

All I want to say is that I've met with tremendous difficulties, but all solved by myself, but not the following:


Try re-reading what Wonko wrote:

Using the partnew command:

If you have an empty partition entry in the main MBR (as you should have) you can use partnew to create a new primary partition entry pointing to the logical volume inside extended, during this process the "sectors before" will be automatically and PERMANENTLY corrected .

and compare with what you did in order to have the given advice working:

let me zero out the (hd0,3) with

partnew (hd0,3) 0 0 0


:thumbup:

:cheers:
Wonko

#49 xpt

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Posted 20 June 2010 - 05:30 PM

YES! Windows boots from the logical partition!

Horay!!!


Wait ... Oh, NO! my Vista in the primary partition cannot be booted any more!!! It's asking for installation disk, but I don't know if I have it -- the Vista is created via the 1st boot of my PC from the (1st) OEM utility disk. I did have backup the utility disk to DVDs, but they are straight 6~8 DVD disks and I don't know which is which.

I can't point my finger to booting XP from logical partition to be the culprit, but my Vista stops booting right after it.

#50 xpt

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Posted 21 June 2010 - 03:35 PM

> YES! Windows boots from the logical partition!
> Horay!!!
Wait ... Oh, NO! my Vista in the primary partition cannot be booted any more!!!


Checking back my test machine, yes, my Win2K can still boots from the logical partition, but I get a blank screen after logging in. Several minutes later, Windows goes back to login screen again. If I log in again, it goes back to login screen again immediately.

Booting back the primary partition and see what I will get. Only then I remember that my Windows 2K in primary partition has been overwritten by a new Windows XP.

I can't point my finger to booting XP from logical partition to be the culprit, but my Vista stops booting right after it.


Now I still can't point my finger to anything (at least without duplicate it again), but I do know now, from my own experience,

- installing a new Windows in the logical partition made my Vista in the primary partition un-bootable.
- installing a new Windows in the primary partition made my Win2K in the logical partition can't log in.

I've completely lost interest to spend any time further on this since my Vista is whacked anyway (but still thanks everyone who has accompany me along this bumpy road). Hope that the document here has at least make it a bit easier for another brave soul to take on further (or poor soul to be more correct? :unsure: ).

Thanks everyone!




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