40 replies to this topic

[pscEx]

It is already implemented:
If under "Tools" "Options" the option "Open log window after process" is unchecked:

• On Error free builds you stay in your current view
• On Builds with error the log window is shown

Peter

[Lancelot]

Also seems reasonable to me that if a project run fails then the log automatically opens. In most other circumstances you won't look at the log. Or if you do manually opening it is not hard.

Log Name with Project Name

log_20100224_232613_LiveXP.html

can you write this to a seperate topic at Wishlist and Requests (I am not sure but i guess this is what Nuno wants. Like writing to old bug trackers request )

[Wonko the Sane]

For the little it can be of use, I personally agree 100% with both paraglider's ideas as they are both logical and permeated of that nowadays seemingly very rare thing called "common sense".

@Medevil
Please show me 3 (three) other applications where, when you press a button titled "Save" any of the following happens:

• a file is overwritten (if previously existing) without prompting the user
• another app is launched opening the just written file

Here:
http://www.softpedia.com/
you can find approximately 365,418 apps that do have a Save button, of which at least (last time I checked them ) 238,589 of them do not sport this behaviour.
This is what I call "usual" or "normal" behaviour.



Wonko

[Lancelot]

I guess what jaclaz ask in winbuilderish is

"Log Name with TimeStamp" option should be selected as default.


@jaclaz

you should §@ç#ing make an opinion poll or a market research, before assuming that your view with the "user hat on" is actually the view of the actual users,

why not open a poll here You already have +1 vote

[Wonko the Sane]

why not open a poll here You already have +1 vote

You are missing the point I was trying to make - or I made not myself clear enough.

If you are a political entity you look for votes, opinions from the people, as that will make you elected.
If you are a Commercial entity you look for votes, opinions from the people, as that will make you sell your product.

Both in a democracy and in the market what counts are numbers, each individual (in the case of the market each individual with spending capabilities -direct or indirect - ONLY) opinion has the same weight.

Here we are - with extreme difficulty - trying to build something, like a house, or a bridge.

If you are going to build your house, you don't make a poll about how your house should be built, you ask for the opinions and suggestions of experienced people, technicians, engineers, architects, decorators, carpenters, etc.: people who are familiar with the problems you are having or that you will have and that will hopefully share with you their experience.

An opinion on a software by paraglider, or by psc, no matter if you (or me) like it or not has a weight (in my personal scale of measurement) that can be comparable to, say, that of 3,217 "common users", i.e. if the poll result for an hypothetical:
Would you like to have Project name and date of log as default?

Would have a result of:
YES - 2 votes by paraglider and psc
NO - 6,433 votes by "perfect strangers"

I would personally make the project and date in the log filename, without thinking about it twice.



Wonko

P.S.: You evidently miss in your studies "statistics" and "theory of opinion polls":
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Opinion_poll
the accuracy of a poll is only given by the accuracy of the sample, and relevance is a independent variable

[Lancelot]

If you are a

You are missing the point I was trying to make.

I want to find midways (as usual) to have common sense advices (requests) understood (and followed) for this cases by Nuno, psc ....

YES - 2 votes by paraglider and psc

You already have +1 vote

[MedEvil]

@Medevil
Please show me 3 (three) other applications where, when you press a button titled "Save" any of the following happens:

• a file is overwritten (if previously existing) without prompting the user
• another app is launched opening the just written file

So is your problem, that the button doesn't read 'save and open' or that Wb works smarter than the usual program?
I personly find it always highly annoying to have to hunt after a created log, as if i just created it out of boredom and never planed on using it.

If you are a political entity you look for votes, opinions from the people, as that will make you elected.
If you are a Commercial entity you look for votes, opinions from the people, as that will make you sell your product.

And if you own a monopoly, you do whatever you like and people will still buy!

[Wonko the Sane]

So is your problem, that the button doesn't read 'save and open' or that Wb works smarter than the usual program?
I personly find it always highly annoying to have to hunt after a created log, as if i just created it out of boredom and never planed on using it.

It is not my problem.
It's Winbuilder problem.

The button does not do what it's written on it and does a number of things that are normally not associated with the action of "Save".

Your opinion - as well as that of Nuno - of it being a smart thing to do is of course as good as mine that it isn't, but that the behaviour is not "standard" is a fact.

If on an elevator you put three buttons (from top to bottom):
Button #1 with printed on it number 1
Button #2 with printed on it number 0
Button #3 with printed on it number -1
People entering the elevator on ground floor will assume that if they push the button with a 1 on it (button #1) the elevator will go to first floor and if they push the button with number 0 (button #2) the elevator will remain where it is, whilst if they press the button with -1 (button #3) the elevator will take them to the basement.

If you invert the position of the #1 and #3 buttons, most people will press the wrong one, you have created a non-standard user interface.

If you put back the buttons in the original order and you remove the labels from them, most people will again push the "right" ones.

When people pushes the topmost button, they will expect to go "up", when they push the bottom button they will expect to go "down".

Now, to continue with the elevator example, let's say that the elevator is in a commercial center, in a glass case, nothing prevents an engineer from programming it, when you press the "-1" button to first thing go to first floor, in order to let you see how nice are the shops there before taking you to the basement where your car is, but this, besides being of debatable utility is "non-standard" behaviour, and you will experience something unexpected the first time you find such an elevator.

And if you own a monopoly, you do whatever you like and people will still buy!

And if you are smarter than that you invent taxes and you get money for nothing.



Wonko

[MedEvil]

Seems like being different and being worst is the same to you. Strange point of view, imo. But everyone his own.

[MedEvil]

And if you are smarter than that you invent taxes and you get money for nothing.

Since when does collecting taxes has anything to do with being smart? It has to do with having the power to force people to pay them.

[Wonko the Sane]

Seems like being different and being worst is the same to you. Strange point of view, imo. But everyone his own.

Not at all.

What I am clearly saying is that different means "non-standard", and this is a fact, and that in this particular case - and more generally when we are talking about user interfaces - it is my opinion that "standard" is usually better, in the sense of "easier" and/or "less unexpected" than "non-standard".



Wonko

[MedEvil]

As said, each his own. I like improved interfaces better and you prefer standard ones.

[Wonko the Sane]

As said, each his own. I like improved interfaces better and you prefer standard ones.

And again no , (though I perfectly know that you will anyway continue trying to put words in my mouth - but I have nothing better to do right now )

"Standard" or "non-standard" is a fact or an objective, intrinsecal quality of the subject.

"Improved" is an opinion or a subjective attribute.

What one likes or dislikes has nothing to do with this, in this particular instance, you think that this feature is an improvement and like it, I find it an unneded worsening and don't like it, and we are both free and happy with our opinions, the only fact that remains is that it's behaviour is "non-standard" and/or "unusual".

You don't really need, at every post, to try summing up what I have written, twisting it's meanings, people can read, if interested what I wrote directly.



Wonko

[Brito]

If on an elevator you put three buttons (from top to bottom):
Button #1 with printed on it number 1
Button #2 with printed on it number 0
Button #3 with printed on it number -1
People entering the elevator on ground floor will assume that if they push the button with a 1 on it (button #1) the elevator will go to first floor and if they push the button with number 0 (button #2) the elevator will remain where it is, whilst if they press the button with -1 (button #3) the elevator will take them to the basement.

And when you press any button:
- the door will close
- the elevator will move
- the ring will bell to warn you that you arrived
- the door will open

You don't need an additional button to say "Open doors", it just does so automatically and you like it that way.

--------------

And then you can say something "but all elevators do that, it's standard".

Well.. all Winbuiders to this save an open action, it's "standard" to us and users like it.

[MedEvil]

I slowly but steadily i get a problem understanding, what even the point is that you have a problem with.

"Standard" or "non-standard" is a fact or an objective, intrinsecal quality of the subject.
... the only fact that remains is that it's behaviour is "non-standard" and/or "unusual".

And? An intrinsecal quality is no reason! Per 1. and 2. i can not see, how the aboved even matters to you?

1. I understand non-standard equals worst, iyo - You say, no that's not true.
2. I understand you prefer standard - You say, no that's not true.
3. The only thing you have confirmed thus far is, that you don't like the label of the button, it is not explanatory enough.

If one would start WB, from a shortcut in the Start menu, press save log, open the standard filemanager (explorer), go the the WB directory (about a dozend clicks or so, in my case), double click on the log to view it. That would be standard.

But i start WB from a shortcut in the Start menu, press save log and view it. That's an improvement. Imo for everyone, except you that is.
And since there is no pesky time code written to the log name, it is also ensured, that i will never have to go to that folder just to clean up the logs, that have piled up.
Please tell me what you find so annoying about that, except that most / all other programs are not that smart.

[pscEx]

Currently we are speaking about only two of the many options WinBuilder provides.

Let's expand the question to "Which options should be activated by default?"

I'm sure that this topic will become one with the most posts.

(Provided that the members do not think: Why waste my time and consider and post about such a peanut?)

Peter