30 replies to this topic

[Wonko the Sane]

It's something I simply cannot grasp/understand.

I've read the very basics:
http://atvelu.poster...why-everyone-is
http://barterfanatic...eck-is-bitcoin/
http://www.economist...irtual-currency
http://anisesmith.am...k-is-a-bitcoin/
http://techcrunch.co.../bitcoin-crazy/

http://www.investitw...-of-the-future/

I do understand the freedom idea and the no "central control" thingy.

If I get it right, the idea of most peeps to get rich is to "mine" a bitcoin from a mind-bogglingly big set of cryptographic data by bruteforcing calculations and dedicating CPU/GPU power to it.

The only rational explanation I can find (once excluded the nice "basic idea" and the "freedom and no central control" and "bla and bla", that as a "proof of concept" seems nice and interesting to me ) is that someone is finding a way to have people consume more electricity and bandwidth with no reason whatsoever , with the added "bonus" of a few peeps (possibly) harvesting e-mails in exchange for free bitcoins .

What the heck do these guys do?:
http://www.freebitco...at-are-bitcoins


This shows how old middle-aged I am getting:

The old believe everything; the middle aged suspect everything: the young know everything.

I would be happy if any member would try and explain his/her point of view on this thingy and/or help me undrstanding what the heck is all the fuss about this.

The only (nice) thing that I can remember that seems somehow similar to this is Calvin & Hobbes playing Calvinball:
http://www.bartel.org/calvinball/
http://calvinandhobb...wiki/Calvinball

Other kids' games are all such a bore!
They've gotta have rules and they gotta keep score!
Calvinball is better by far!
It's never the same! It's always bizarre!
You don't need a team or a referee!
You know that it's great, 'cause it's named after me!

Wonko

[sbaeder]

To me, there are two parts to this...the bitcoin "locker" (which is how people are mining for them, since they have to have a very unique characteristic), and the whole idea of using the locker to track and manage and exchange "wealth" (or value). Maybe, just like any other "currency", it will catch on (I have doubts). I think the "value" they claim is that they are more difficult to trace who "owns" the "coin" (as opposed to just some account number in a bank somewhere)...

I tend to agree (even though I am older too that finding the lockers seems to be a waste of electricity

[steve6375]

This is a great idea! Whoopee! I am going to sign up straight away. I am fed up with paying my government income tax. What a brilliant tax avoidance scheme!

[Wonko the Sane]

A couple of not-so-random links to recent news :

https://rya.nc/defco...ainwallets.html

http://www.theregist...s_cackles_away/

 

Wonko

[Zoso]

hi Wonko,

I was just thinking about this earlier today. I dont know much about them at all except it requires energy/electricity to be processed so I was wondering if the most energy efficient systems for this "process" would make more "value" than less energy efficient ones?

so it seems to be a more precise way to put a monetary value to units of energy, is this correct?

I welcome any competition to electronic currencies (especially paypal) but bitcoin's origins seem kinda fishy.

[S466531257BOSS]

To make it simple ( well, for me, not for you )

 

BitCoin in its principles is

 

-self-auto-balancing

--- no one can print money (Coins) for itself just by stating "i am the king of my state (the coin system: like BitCoin, DarkCoin, ZeroCoin, BlaBlaCoin) and i want to have all me fellas rich, so i print it though there is no counter-value (which would be like reinventing the actual money-system based on banks, who are owned by banks, which own banks, who are owning anyone participating just by being born in a nation which handles its cash and credits via e.g.: The EZB ( Europäische ZentralBank  ) )

 

-having a life-time

--- means: For sure you can mine bitcoins by rendering them out of the possible-coins a.k.a. the-stream a.k.a. the blockchain : BUT no one can hold the same cash; to be precise: like the most paper-money is serialized via ids which represent the unique state of that piece of paper worth 100 bucks for example, one can copy that piece of paper, because there is no direct-comparison of the existing and used ids. BitCoin (for example) is one blockchain where the id can be found, but if it was already found by another miner it is given reserved. So a decentralized ( not one or more servers holding this credential; instead all participants use the same data, therefore anyone is server and client and pointing to that ONE CHAIN OF ID's - no duplicate holders/owners allowed -- first comes --first serves ) ; BUT : You can not store your Cash forever: depending on the laws of the Coin-System you have a time of freshness for the cash; like vegetables sour in weeks, coins can sour in a specific time given; ... to prevent the problem of people hording money and therefore taking the cash out of the system ) --- in short: if you horde you have to participate actively und support the coin-system ( lightly similar to stay uploading torrents instead of leeching them and suckout the system of them )

 

-cryptonized :

--- Coin streams itself are varying depending on the targeted market; so in its variables the Coin-Systems can be different; diverse life-times, diverse participation-rules, diverse businesses that  are allowed to run on them; that all depends on the system: like saying: we have diverse cashiers who are accepting specific money - you already know that if you use for example Google-Cash to pay for apps in the Google-Store or more classical the virtual-money you use to load your prepaid-card e.g.: your mobile provider or ( more international ) to load your debit-card for use with Visa or MasterCard-Systems; Maybe the holder of these systems allows you to convert your spent real money back into its original state, but mostly this virtual money ( nothing else than running a BitCoin-BlockChain or if you like to say Visa-BlockChain or MasterCard-BlockChain ) is not able to be converted back ( e.g.: Nintendo Wii Points )

 

Well it's just that :

 

For sure what happens in the background can be very complex, but all in all that is the description of the main-abilities and there counterparts actually used in our daily cashing in our industrial-world ;

 

THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST

 

S466531257 BOSS

PAETH CLAUDIUSRAPHAEL

 

P.s.: Like in reality - If you loose your wallet -- in BitCoin-terms : if you loose your digital-wallet due to a crashing hard-drive, that money is gone ( like burning paper-cash or the coupon stating you have 1000 Wii-Points ) - but due to the fact that the Coin-BlockChain is only usable if you participate in that ONE Chain, its clear that you dont own these Cash-ID's anymore so they are freely minable again.

[S466531257BOSS]

Btw.: I am aware of the date you originally posted this Wonko, but as it is showing top-off due to the added question of Zoso, i thought i could plant an ( at least for me ) easy-explanation of the whole Coin-Thingy.

 

THANKS FOR YOUR INTEREST .

 

S466531257 BOSS

PAETH CLAUDIUSRAPHAEL

 

P.S.:

 

@ Zoso : You can use a Pi-Cluster to make it so-to-say efficient if you need a platform that you can use for almost anything and not especially but also for mining ; or an ol Dell-Server ( like mine 2900/2950 ) - in the least you have to cut the pci-slots to allow insertion of PCI-16x CUDA cards for example - but in terms of energy efficiency best you can do is running pure asics ; have a look at the-officially-most-efficient-miner-platform ; but if you are not going out to feed your local energy provider and build your own mining-farm, you instead should leave bitcoin alone and look for other coin-mining-networks which are more CPU- (instead of GPU-/DSP- ) -friendly, like : Profit-Comparison for i7-CPU-mining ( a year ago ) or in general: simple-cross-platform--easy-to-understand ; What really matters besides the hardware you use and the platform to mine for is the decision if you wish to mine anonymously or not and if you wish to have as-much-as-possible-conversions ready for example ;

All in all, just be sure of your target : Are you looking for easy and cheap ways to get digital ware ? Are you looking out for generating coins to pay your local bakery or cafe that supports coins ? Do you just want to experiment with coins at all ? -- Each Coin-Network/-BlockChain has its own purpose and that is what you should inform about if you compare the efficiency .

 

HOPE IT HELPS .

[Wonko the Sane]

No prob , had you actually checked attentively you would have seen how I bumped myself the thread as I added links to a couple recent pertaining articles.
Though it may (often ) happen that it is Zoso's fault , in this case it isn't.


Wonko

[S466531257BOSS]

P.P.S.: Take a deeper look at NameCoin if you like to have a general example for how to use coins and specifically in this case use them for an alternative to the centralized and mostly-u.s.-based Doman-Name-System--Provision; In case of further-interest have a look at  ZeroNet and its marriage with NameCoin

[S466531257BOSS]

P.P.S.: Take a deeper look at NameCoin if you like to have a general example for how to use coins and specifically in this case use them for an alternative to the centralized and mostly-u.s.-based Doman-Name-System--Provision; In case of further-interest have a look at  ZeroNet and its marriage with NameCoin

[S466531257BOSS]

oops double PPS -- however : just to have a feedback ( on in most cases : my complicated writing ) - do you think it is likely understandable in terms of how coin-networks work ?

[Wonko the Sane]

Maybe the original questions were not clear, they were not about HOW Bitcoin (or other senseless similar crypto-currencies and their ancillaries) works (or completely fails to work) technically, they were about WHAT people found in them that could be - even remotely - considered reliable or usable, or - if you prefer - WHY someone would decide to invest (time, money, energy, whatever) in such a volatile *whatever*.

 

Wonko

[Zoso]

LOL!

so would not bitcoin be a good way to determine energy efficiency of the systems they are "mined" on?

but when it is all said and done, seems you have x amount of electron currency being converted to X amount of some other type of currency. and these days "money" is not actually backed by anything tangable anyway (Fiat) other than the peoples belief/trust so the people are what back the currency.

the people have been converted (re-venued) "time is money". with bitcoin, the peoples energy can be stored electronically.

money is actually a very complicated subject in itself.

[TheHive]

  Wired Money 2015 - Andreas M Antonopoulos - Bitcoin is the real disruptor

 

 

Yes! i saw that this was started in the distant past.

[Wonko the Sane]

A post (maybe) by Satoshi Nakamoto Sat Aug 15 17:43:54 UTC 2015:
http://lists.linuxfo...ust/010238.html
 
 

I have been following the recent block size debates through the mailing list. I had hoped the debate would resolve and that a fork proposal would achieve widespread consensus. However with the formal release of Bitcoin XT 0.11A, this looks unlikely to happen, and so I am forced to share my concerns about this very dangerous fork.

The developers of this pretender-Bitcoin claim to be following my original vision, but nothing could be further from the truth. When I designed Bitcoin, I designed it in such a way as to make future modifications to the consensus rules difficult without near unanimous agreement. Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto. Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it. By doing a fork in this way, these developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to honour.

They use my old writings to make claims about what Bitcoin was supposed to be. However I acknowledge that a lot has changed since that time, and new knowledge has been gained that contradicts some of my early opinions. For example I didn't anticipate pooled mining and its effects on the security of the network. Making Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take more time to come up with a robust solution. I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism.

If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project. Bitcoin was meant to be both technically and socially robust. This present situation has been very disappointing to watch unfold.

Satoshi Nakamoto

Wonko

[Wonko the Sane]

Some news:

http://www.bizjourna...million-in.html

 

Atlanta's Bitpay got hacked for $1.8 million in bitcoins

 

 

Notwithstanding the title, no hacking was actually performed on the payment system, more simply some (seemingly VERY remunerative  ) phishing was made, tricking the CEO of the company to make/authorize those payments.

 

 

Wonko

[Mikorist]

It's something I simply cannot grasp/understand. 

is that someone is finding a way to have people consume more electricity and bandwidth with no reason whatsoever  

There is nothing in the world with no reason.
 
The answer is not so simple  for understand.
 

HOW  . . .  WHAT  - WHY someone would decide to invest (time, money, energy, whatever) in such a volatile *whatever*.

I found answer in a completely different field (Mathematics) HOW , WHAT and WHY they actually calculate .
 
And  WHO decide to invest to calculate & generate  - "mine" amind-bogglingly big set of Dual_EC_DRBG data:
 
Edward Frenkel

 

Staay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes:

 

Spoiler

 

Thanks to the heroic work of Edward Snowden we now know that Dual_EC_DRBG was developed by the NSA, with the backdoor, and given to NIST to disseminate. The scary part is that RSA Security, a company that develops widely used commercial encryption applications, continued use of Dual_EC_DRBG all the way up to the Snowden revelations despite the known flaws. Not surprising this brought a lot of heat on RSA which denies they intentionally created a honeypot for the NSA.
 
Bitcoin uses the Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm (ECDSA) for signing transactions. This is how you use your private key to “prove” you own the bitcoins associated with your address. ECDSA keys are derived from elliptic curves that themselves are generated using certain parameters. NIST has been actively recommending that everyone use the secp256r1 parameters because they “are the most secure”. However, there appears to be some funny business with secp256r1 that is eerily similar to the backdoor in Dual_EC_DRBG.

The unbelievable thing is that rather than using secp256r1 like nearly all other applications, Bitcoin uses secp256k1 which uses Koblitz curves instead of pseudorandom curves and is still believed to be secure. Now the decision to use secp256k1 instead of secp256r1 was made by Satoshi. It’s a mystery why he chose these parameters instead of the parameters used by everyone else (the core devs even considered changing it!). Dan Brown, Chairman of the Standards for Efficient Cryptography Group, had this to say about it:

I did not know that BitCoin is using secp256k1. Indeed, I am surprised to see anybody use secp256k1 instead of secp256r1.

 
https://chrispacia.w...rs-and-bitcoin/

 

 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Are these good or bad news?

http://www.bloomberg...o-u-s-regulator

Virtual money is officially a commodity, just like crude oil or wheat.

 

 

Wonko

[Wonko the Sane]

... but seemingly not yet as wide in use as expected

http://www.technolog...a-good-payment/

 

Wonko

[crashnburn]

My biggest contention is how BitCoins are generated..  

 

Its as if BC credits are given to those who help manage the BC ledges/ book keeping.. 

 

And what value is this to the real world? So, anyone who started at the beginning will have the most BCs.. but for doing what.. Nothing for real world? 

 

Digital tinkerers getting paid in digital trinkets for digital trinket counting activity that provides no value to anyone.. 

 

PS: I like the idea of a free currency.. but how its generated is absurd at best. Unless someone can explain to me as well.. 

[Wonko the Sane]

Well, either good news or bad news, officially it is not money:
https://www.washingt...ndering-charge/


Wonko

[Zoso]

Well, either good news or bad news, officially it is not money:
https://www.washingt...ndering-charge/


Wonko

official only in Miami-Dade County at this point.

[Wonko the Sane]

Just to update the thread:
https://techcrunch.c...finex-exchange/

Someone is 65 to 80 million US$ richer, seemingly.

 

Wonko

[Wonko the Sane]

Just to update the thread:
https://techcrunch.c...finex-exchange/

Someone is 65 to 80 million US$ richer, seemingly.

And quite a few morons gullible customers innocent people trusting bitfinex will soon be 36% poorer:
https://www.theguard...ent-loss-tokens

http://blog.bitfinex...interim-update/

 

 

Wonko