81 replies to this topic

[Wonko the Sane]

you surely already know how inaccurate are your conclusions and, more importantly, the "automatic" conclusion is groundless and it would need some deeper analysis.

Ow, come on , you know:
 

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that.

and of course (since we are going onto proverbs):
http://www.phrases.o...-as-a-mile.html

and of course :
 

Fact is stranger than fiction

 

As per the digital archiving, I have to say that You're inviting me to eat pasta and meat !!!, as it is said in my birthplace (sorry for the italian translation : Mi stai invitando a pasta e carne !!! ).

Not a common italian proverb I would use "invitare la lepre a correre" o "invitare a nozze" (literally "to invite a hare to run" and "to invite someone to a wedding" I know not a correspondent English proverb :blushing:)

 
 
 

... I think there are other, more friendly solutions, such as DVD-RAMs,.

Any (real) compared research about durability of DVD-RAM's over other optical media?

The M-Disc (though it's lifetime is IMHO really needing to be actually tested) is "as friendly" as possible, the LG drive can be found for between 25 and 80 bucks or so:
http://ncix.com/products/?sku=66853
http://www.ncix.com/...ucts/?sku=71586
and at 30 bucks for 10 discs the media itself is fairly cheap:
https://store.mdisc....dex.php/m-discs

About patents a "firmware" would still fall into "software" and consequently in "software patents" which are VERY debated, both in actual validity worldwide and in actual possibility of getting a patent.
And being able to defend them (provided that you manage to be granted one) is a very, very, very difficult (and costly) legal exercise.
http://en.wikipedia....Software_patent


Wonko

[ambralivio]

@Wonko,

 

as always I appreciate your sense of humor but you should know that statistics & probability are not for all the people...

 

As per the proverbs, I think you're right : there are more common sayings in Italy for stating that concept. But, you didn't carefully read my statement; I said "birthplace", which does not necessarily means or indicates the country

http://en.wikipedia..../Place_of_birth

 

Any (real) compared research about durability of DVD-RAM's over other optical media?

 

Surprisingly (but not so much), this format has been abandoned over the time, Anyway, during its glory time, the lifetime (in terms of writing cycles) was given as 100 times better than other optical media (100,000 against 1,000 for DVD±RWs) and it was indicated as the best media for professional archiving purpouses :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-RAM

 

a "firmware" would still fall into "software"

Absolutely NO. Firmware is different than software (being embedded in the hardware) and it cannot be considered as a sub-group of software.

Besides, (and due to the definition above) firmware patents are more easy to be provided).

 

ambralivio

[Wonko the Sane]

Absolutely NO. Firmware is different than software (being embedded in the hardware) and it cannot be considered as a sub-group of software.
Besides, (and due to the definition above) firmware patents are more easy to be provided).

Well, on this we will need to agree to disagree.
Software is *any* set of instructions, no matter where they are saved/stored.
Or in the good ol'times:
http://www.911cd.net...ic=21702&st=122
it would have been literary work  because the instructions were stored on paper?

 

JFYI, you can probably still get a DVD-John T-shirt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS

http://www.coolcopyr...alreimerdes.htm

or store the program in a single (prime) number:

http://en.wikipedia....al_prime_number

About DVD-RAM, what I asked for was:
 

 
Any (real) compared research about durability of DVD-RAM's over other optical media?

The number of possible re-writes is irrelevant, for all we care (data preservation) they could be WORM.
Wikipedia cites:

1. the manufacturer Fujifilm Shop page
2. a completely UNrelated to DVD-RAM article (actually about WORM's)

If instead of being digital documents they had been actually on paper I would have a suitable use for them (which I won't tell ).

Wonko

[ambralivio]

Software is *any* set of instructions, no matter where they are saved/stored.

 

Well, this is just what differenciate software from firmware. You're right, software is just a set of instructions, but without any operative output, untill it it is not running on a "machine"; that is the software is "static", only an idea. The associated firmware is something "live"and running . As an example (with its inherent limitations), the technical drawings for manufacturing a car (which is the "software") have nothing to do with a real, functioning car (the firmware), also because you need another important element, the fuel, for making the car moving.....              

 

As per the DVD-RAM, you are right saying that re-write cycles are not important for data preservation. Unfortunately, even the documentation about DVD-RAMs is difficult to find, but on the Wiki page you can read "without physical damage, data is retained for an estimated 30 years. For this reason, it is used for archival storage of data".

Besides, on the same page you can read :

 

• DVD-RAM technology provides excellent data integrity, data retention and damage protection through a number of    mechanisms  and  properties


• Reliable writing of discs. Verification done in hardware by the drive, so post-write verification by software is unnecessary.


• Disc defect management designed to safeguard data.

Is this enough for you ? or you need real data/numbers (which I am not able to provide) and, in this case, for making what ?

 

I really wonder how you may have missed such media type, as it seems from your questions !!!!!!!!

 

ambralivio

 

P.S. - I have the impression that the discussion is going to be a bit OT, though.

[Wonko the Sane]

P.S. - I have the impression that the discussion is going to be a bit OT, though.

Rest assured, it is.

Wikipedia is not normally a reliable source for *anything* if not for an "introduction" to a topic.

Very often the documents cited are actually authoritative, though.

In this case the provided citations are - as said - a mere snapshot from one manufacturer's online shop that simply states a lifetime and a completely unrelated to DVD-RAM article (and even for the WORM technology discussed in there, rather "generic").

Those are m00t, not anything "sound", "reliable", "scientific".

The guys from Millenniata at least published the actual tests (a single one actually) they made, and though I personally do not believe their conclusions to be valid (and as a matter of fact not even plausible ), I do trust the objective data coming from them.

 

Wonko

[ambralivio]

@Wonko,

 

at first, as there were no comments at all wrt software vs. firmware debate, I wonder if I can consider it closed.

 

Regarding the documentation on DVD-RAM, some link, I suppose authoritative enough (even if not scientific)  :  

 

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html

 

As a side note, there you'll also find some reference (not so comfortable) on Millenniata projects.

 

Then, with reference to :

 

Those are m00t, not anything "sound", "reliable", "scientific".

 

I consider really strange how sometimes you look, and claim, for "scientific" data, and when talking about statistics you joke and play around.

 

Finally, since only you and me are feeding up this thread by now , also being OT, I'd propose to open another thread, just on digital data preservation, which I consider a valid topic for the forum, even though not so related to its main targets.

Do you agree ?

 

Waiting for a trigger from you,

ambralivio

[Wonko the Sane]

Agreed on leaving this poor isostick thread alone and have a new one just for data preserveation.
And, as said on post #78 I am agreeing to disagree on the software vs. firmware issue (everyone will remain with his opinion and will simply stop to convince the other one and/or to establish a "common" view on the matter).
 
In some rare cases this is dangerous :
http://reboot.pro/to...e-4#entry119524
but I don't think it will happen here .
 

Wonko

P.S.: Spin-off started here:
http://reboot.pro/to...-optical-media/