60 replies to this topic

[online]

well , after reading all three pages , im still confuse .. im trying to learn all those thoughts in it ./

You're welcome, but I'm afraid that - at least until now - here you will not find a mathematical model for the best USB booting, but you can find only some thoughts about a success that until now the experts do not know to explain (and I even less).
All is started from my idea/observation that if your UFD is partitioned by XP's Disk Management in at least 2 (two) partitions than it will boot from reasonably the most machines (please, read: the most BIOSes) out there.
So, if your UFD already boots from your machine(s) and you are glad so, then you have not to do anything.
If you want to boot a your UFD that does not boot from a certain machine then you have to follow the suggestions of the real experts, and you have to ask to them.
If you want INCREASE your UFD bootability by yourself - just as I have done on all my UFDs and then I have been able to boot every my UFD from every machine I've tried (also from a machine that does not boot ANYTHING is not as a Hard Disk), because my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way is able to do to see from the most BIOSes as a Hard Disk - than you can perform the way in my signature.
Here, and in the thread in my signature "Make Your Most Bootable USB Flash Drive"), we are talking about some evidences (discovered modestly by me ) that still have not a scientific explanation, if never they will have one.

However I had been glad to compare your attached MBR and I can see what is in the screenshot



I can just notice that the amount of zeros automatically selected by "010 Editor" above 55 AA bytes is small, but greater compared to HP Format Tool results (I think you have a single partition on your UFD).
I do not know to say more because I'm NOT an expert and I do NOT know even is this is a viable method, the only thing I can notice is that a smaller number of zeros automatically selected by "010 Editor" above the "55 AA" bytes seems to reach a better bootability.
And the amount of zeros automatically selected by "010 Editor" on my UFD partitioned performing my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way is just null!
Please, note that it is a pure conjecture with nothing of scientific, and that most likely that conjecture is wrong.

Really the topic and the related observations are enormously unknown, then if you ask to the real experts I'm sure that they will know how to reply about a scientific method.

Sure, my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way is the SIMPLEST way I know in order to highly increase your UFD bootability and it works much better for me compared or not compared to "all" known ways I've tried until now.
Sure, my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way works on EVERY tried machine where HP Format Tool and/or other ways do NOT work.

Why?
Please, re-read the above notes about the real experts and their possible replies about a presumed and real scientific method.

Thank you for you post, really!

[MedEvil]

Before you guys start killing each other over a few colorful 00, let me help out.

If you look at the left side of the output field, you see two beams representing the two files that were compared.
Now look closely, between the two beams there are little lines. Those lines connect points that the program thinks correspond in the two files. Those lines are not 100% horizontal.

This leads to the program coloring a different number of 00 at the end. (The program 'believes' that one file contains 6 bytes in the same place the other contains only 2. Or with other words, the program is in error!)


@jaclaz
I'm disappointed that you, instead of finding and pointing out the error in the program, choose rather to attack online. I thought you were smarter.

[was_jaclaz]

@jaclaz
I'm disappointed that you, instead of finding and pointing out the error in the program, choose rather to attack online. I thought you were smarter.

Sorry to disappoint you.

I suggested using another app to confirm (or deny ) that a 00 can be different from another 00.

I am sorry if I seem unhelpful or sarcastic or whatever, I simply find that:

0=0

and conversely:

00=00

is an identity, a truism or, if you prefer, a "self evident truth":
http://www.thefreedi...f-evident truth
no matter what whatever program says.

By the way, I also find:

55=55

and

AA=AA

to be self evident truths.

I am not familiar with 010 hex editor, but I presume that, like other hex editors, has "settings" about the way the comparison is made, that can lead, if incorrectly set, to this behaviour.



jaclaz

[maanu]

Sure, my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way is the SIMPLEST way I know in order to highly increase your UFD bootability and it works much better for me compared or not compared to "all" known ways I've tried until now.
Sure, my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way works on EVERY tried machine where HP Format Tool and/or other ways do NOT work.

Why?
Please, re-read the above notes about the real experts and their possible replies about a presumed and real scientific method.

Thank you for you post, really!

u'r very welcome sir , i really want to do test all ur findings . and among them format and forget it seems very good .
but i have some questions ,

1. for 2 GB flash drive, lets say i make a first partition of fat 32 having 1500 MB , and the rest with NTFS , now should i place all the multiboot files in first partition or can i use the second partition too with hd0.0 with grub4dos ? i mean will grub4dos can load another floppy image or menu.lst from second partition too ? because what i could understand the MBR installs at first (primary fat32) partition there for bios corresponds with it first when loading the main grub4dos ?

2. lets say i want to image this 2 GB flash drive on multiple 2 GB flash drives , then should i use ghost clone option to clone this flash drive on multiple flash drives and ultimately they ll have same bootability ,i mean those 2 partitions will clone to other flash drives too ?
currently what i have tested is that , i made a 2 GB flash drive multiboot with grub4dos , and made a gho image of it . then restored it to my friend's system , and it worked fine , just wondering after having ur " format and forget it" applied on my 2 GB flash drive , can it be mirrored as it is to other 2 GB flash drive , but im still having confusion that if my current menu.lst and options will work fine as they were made for single partitioned flash drive ( the one i showed MBR to u above) .

thanks again for ur kind reply ...

Respect

[online]

@maanu

Since most likely I do not deserve your respects , I thank you for your post and I invite you to forget about related 010 Editor findings!

Really, thanks to MedEvil , then I have detailed the issue and I discovered that if I change the setting in 010 Editor from "Binary" to "Byte By Byte" then the end of MBR will match!



So all above my useless considerations about a presumed importance of the zeros in the MBR signature have to be FORGOTTEN!



... however, my "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way continues to work!


In this moment I have not too time for an adequate reply to your questions, however if I well understand then it seems to me that you can do what you want.
I will really reply later. Thank you!

Anyway, there is also another thread in my signature...


Btw1: please, could you remove the whole (and useless) quoting of my previous post? Maybe will be sufficient just a small part and it will ensure a better readability of the thread (IMO). Thank you very much!

Btw2: IF the Board Administration agrees, of course.

[was_jaclaz]

Btw1: please, could you remove the whole (and useless) quoting of my previous post? Maybe will be sufficient just a small part and it will ensure a better readability of the thread (IMO). Thank you very much!

Btw2: IF the Board Administration agrees, of course.

It does.

jaclaz

[maanu]

ok online , i ll be waiting and dont worry , just take ur time.. ps sorry for annoyed quote , hopefully jaclaz fixed before i could . thanks jaclaz..

[MedEvil]

Jaclaz you've overlooked/ignored 3 bigger truths.

A.) Your 'voice' has faaaaar less power to convince on the web, than in real life.

B.) You always have to first solve the problem, before people are able to move on, in their heads.

C.) The goal of a discussion is not to win, but to win the other over.

[online]

1. for 2 GB flash drive, lets say i make a first partition of fat 32 having 1500 MB , and the rest with NTFS , now should i place all the multiboot files in first partition or can i use the second partition too with hd0.0 with grub4dos ?

Premising that the 2nd partition, or however the not-active partition, will not be accessible under Windows if a filter driver is not installed (except if you have flipped the removable-bit of your UFD and then all the existing partitions will be accessible under Windows) the answer is YES: you can use the 2nd partition for the supported application.
It is enough to create a folder named "boot" (or as you want) in the 2nd partition and to place your supported applications there.
Your "menu.lst" will have the related entries pointed to (hd0,1)/boot/.
Summarizing:
1) grub4dos installed in the MBR of your UFD;
2) "grldr" and "menu.lst" copied in the root of the 1st partition;
3) all supported application copied in the "boot" folder of the 2nd partition.
4) "menu.lst" entries pointed to (hd0,1)/boot/.

i mean will grub4dos can load another floppy image or menu.lst from second partition too ?

Yes, even if that partition is not accessible under Windows without an installed filter driver.
Of course you must have a filter driver installed on your current Windows PC just in order to copy all supported applications to the 2nd partition.

because what i could understand the MBR installs at first (primary fat32) partition there for bios corresponds with it first when loading the main grub4dos ?

I'm not sure of having understood, however once you have installed "grub4dos" in the MBR of your UFD then you can do almost all what you want: really grub4dos is a great boot loader and it has many features, and other ones are added in the latest releases.
In this case it is enough that grub4dos is installed in the MBR of your UFD and that "grldr" and "menu.lst" are copied in the root of the 1st partition: from here (that's for grub4dos Menu screen at startup) you can chainload your supported applications from any partition they are on your UFD (the only things that change are the related entries in your "menu.lst").

2. lets say i want to image this 2 GB flash drive on multiple 2 GB flash drives , then should i use ghost clone option to clone this flash drive on multiple flash drives and ultimately they ll have same bootability ,i mean those 2 partitions will clone to other flash drives too ?

Yes, but at least in my experience in order to be sure that then it will boot then those other flash drive have to be first (or before) prepared by XP's Disk Management.
That's: you have a new UFD; then you installed it on your current Windows PC with a filter driver installed; then you partition it in 2 partitions and then you install grub4dos in its MBR.
After that you can restore your image backups on the new and just prepared partitions of your UFD and then it will work.

currently what i have tested is that , i made a 2 GB flash drive multiboot with grub4dos , and made a gho image of it . then restored it to my friend's system , and it worked fine , just wondering after having ur " format and forget it" applied on my 2 GB flash drive , can it be mirrored as it is to other 2 GB flash drive , but im still having confusion that if my current menu.lst and options will work fine as they were made for single partitioned flash drive ( the one i showed MBR to u above) .

Here it seems to me there is a bit of confusion: really performing the "Format-it-&-Forget-it" way you create 2 partition on your UFD with a smaller one (almost 250 MB) at the end of your UFD and in any file-system, but then you will use only the larger.
In other words: the 2nd and last partition is useful just for a better bootability of your UFD not for other uses; and on all the machines where a filter driver is not installed the smaller partition (250 MB) will be not accessible under Windows.
This fact is not matter, how you can see: you will use your UFD exactly how if it had only one partition (that's as all removable devices have).
The difference is that a removable device could not boot from certain machines, instead the double partitioning should assure the UFD bootability also from those certain machines (that's an increased bootability).

Really when we talking about the 2 partitions we can have 2 situations:
1. the case just described: 2 partitions, but only the first and the larger in use; the smaller (250 MB) you have to forget.
So it is exactly how if you have a normal UFD with only one partition, even if for better bootability you have created two, but the 2nd one you have to forget, as if it did not exist.
So you will use your UFD exactly as any USB removable device (> only one partition allowed) and the image backups will work exactly the same.
The difference consists in the increased bootability.
2. you create 2 partitions on your UFD, but the 2nd one is not so small: instead of 250 MB it is 1 GB in size (just as an example).
In this case you will have increase your UFD bootability because it is partitioned with 2 partitions, but of course you will want to use that 1 GB of space.
In this case is valid what I already said above in my first answer.

It appears almost complicated to describe, but very simple to realize and to do.

Really you can make up to 4 primary partitions on your UFD, and if you accept the fact that under Windows if a filter diriver is not installed then only the active partition will be accessible you can create even a multiple Full XP environment (grub4dos supported applications included) in almost a couple of hours.

[online]

C.) The goal of a discussion is not to win, but to win the other over.

In my case I believe (but I cannot be too sure, saying for myself! ) that the goal of discussion is to win on the ignorance.

Of course there are the limits of everyone (I say for me).
In my humble opinion is not even an issue of cleverness, it is a globally human issue (I always say for me).
For "globally" I intend the disturbance of attention, as an example; the difficulty of translating the language; the difficulty to enter in another technical "dimension"; the attitude to understand certain things and not understand other ones; the natural liking for a way rather than for other ones, etc.
So, sometimes, appears the misunderstanding (at largest sense).

Probably the problem is not the "contrast" of the reason over the wrong, probably the real problem is about the "contrast" of a reason over another reason.

[wimb]

After Booting with Parted Magic ISO from GRUB4DOS menu.lst on Harddisk, you can use GParted to change the partioning of your USB-stick e.g. to Create a second partition.

http://www.boot-land...?...5306&st=195

In a similar way Booting from HD with LiveXP BootSDI.img into RAMDISK allows to use Acronis Disk Director 10 to create multiple partitions on USB-stick, without any need to use a filter driver as needed in regular Windows XP.

[maanu]

Really when we talking about the 2 partitions we can have 2 situations:
1. the case just described: 2 partitions, but only the first and the larger in use; the smaller (250 MB) you have to forget.
So it is exactly how if you have a normal UFD with only one partition, even if for better bootability you have created two, but the 2nd one you have to forget, as if it did not exist.

BEAUTIFUL . i have now understood the whole point . we make double partition just to FOOL bios that it is not booting from a removable drive . .it is ONLY there to increase the probability of booting the system.

ok again some little confusions , sorry if it seems stupid ,but i really have to ask this.

1. i have a 2 GB flash drive ,i follow the procedure install driver etc and i make 1st partition as 1.7 GB(fat32) and use it to save ALL files ,and grldr etc , and the second partition with rest of the space with lets say NTFS ,and the point is i wont use the second partition at all , it ll be there just for the sake of having 2 partitions . is it right ?

2. when we make clone in normal circumstances with ghost or acronis ,of a 40 GB hard disk having 2 partitions . now when we restore the same clone to another 40 GB hard disk . it restored exact same with both partitions .
now by keeping the above in mind , lets say we make a clone of already multipartitioned usb , wont it clone AS IT IS on a REMOVABLE flash drive thus making it a multi partitioned drive automatically WITHOUT the need of special driver etc and of course only 1.7 GB drive will be usable...

well im gonna try the above on my 2 gb flash drive tonight. i ll report back with findings .
and thanks again for ur kind reply...

[online]

After Booting with Parted Magic ISO from GRUB4DOS menu.lst on Harddisk, you can use GParted to change the partioning of your USB-stick e.g. to Create a second partition.

http://www.boot-land...?...5306&st=195

In a similar way Booting from HD with LiveXP BootSDI.img into RAMDISK allows to use Acronis Disk Director 10 to create multiple partitions on USB-stick, without any need to use a filter driver as needed in regular Windows XP.

Interesting, but - always in my experience - the best compatibility at booting seems to be assured by XP's Disk Management in absolute.

http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=63511


Furthermore I do not like Acronis Disk Tools, so I never would suggest them.
However, good to know: thank you.

[wimb]

Interesting, but - always in my experience - the best compatibility at booting seems to be assured by XP's Disk Management in absolute.

I was thinking of:

1. In XP use HP Format Tool to format USB-stick with NTFS FileSystem
2. Boot with Parted Magic ISO from HD and start GParted
3. Resize Partition on USB-stick and Create second Partition

How about this for Bootability of USB-stick ?
May be Best of both worlds ....

[was_jaclaz]

Can I have a reason for the 250 Mb size?

I mean, it is 250/2000>12% of available space on a stick "lost".

Does it come from a calculation or it's a value that works, so why changing it?

I was thinking of:

1. In XP use HP Format Tool to format USB-stick with NTFS FileSystem
2. Boot with Parted Magic ISO from HD and start GParted
3. Resize Partition on USB-stick and Create second Partition

How about this for Bootability of USB-stick ?
May be Best of both worlds ....

Not to "push" another method (mine ) mind you, but that is exactly the reason why I put together MBRbatch/MKIMG, it is intended to create (a single) partition with the same "constraints" 2K/XP/2003 Disk Management uses:

• first head reserved for hidden sectors
• respected cylinder boundary for partition
• standard 2K/XP/2003 MBR code
• optionally apply the HP "MBR hack"
• formatting through 2K/XP/2003 own FORMAT command

I can guarantee you that a MBR (and partition) made with MBRbatch is 100% (all 512 bytes of it) to a MBR (and partition) made through Disk Management.

It is possible to use the batches as they are to create also a multipartitioned stick (but only primary partitins are supported at the moment.

I tried n times to induce any of the programmers around to take the challenge to write, with the info in thaose batches a "proper" .exe, but noone is willing, I guess Medevil is right (and this admission in itself is evidently a sign of defeat) I am not able to convince anyone about anything....



jaclaz

[online]

I was thinking of:

1. In XP use HP Format Tool to format USB-stick with NTFS FileSystem
2. Boot with Parted Magic ISO from HD and start GParted
3. Resize Partition on USB-stick and Create second Partition

How about this for Bootability of USB-stick ?
May be Best of both worlds ....

Disk Management console, since the now "famous" one my black-beast machine, is the best choice related to its excellence about the high compatibility.
However, I think some tests are needed about your suggestion.
Please, give me the time to think about it and to possibly try it: thank you, again.

[online]

BEAUTIFUL . i have now understood the whole point . we make double partition just to FOOL bios that it is not booting from a removable drive . .it is ONLY there to increase the probability of booting the system.

Hit and sunk!

[online]

I mean, it is 250/2000>12% of available space on a stick "lost".

You are really unsatisfiable!
But you are right, I understand your question: although if "lost" is for a good cause then it is not more "lost" , however is clear that the minimum size would be better.

Really I've almost always used that size for a reason that now I can not remember (it had to do about cluster-size-file-system), but it comes out from a sort of calculation; I remember that I've "decided" about max 255 MB size under Disk Management, but frankly now I do not remember other nor if I tested it with a smaller size: how many tests I should have to do?

Sure, it works so!


To change it?
I have not the courage to suggest a change!

[maanu]

I can guarantee you that a MBR (and partition) made with MBRbatch is 100% (all 512 bytes of it) to a MBR (and partition) made through Disk Management.

It is possible to use the batches as they are to create also a multipartitioned stick (but only primary partitins are supported at the moment.


jaclaz

to which thread r u reffering here ? i mean i only know a makeBS.cmd , and i REALLY dont know how to use it , i double click it ,it just flashes and exits . and it is just above my head how it can be used to multi partition a usb without DRIVER. if that what u meant ...
and also u r mentioning that u integrated it with MKIMG ,where is it ?

just refer me to threads ,i ll read through it first then ask stupid questions

[online]

I am not able to convince anyone about anything....

For little it is what I say: I really do not think so.

Please, if you want, read here http://www.boot-land...?...ost&p=64829

[andriusst]

You are really unsatisfiable!
But you are right, I understand your question: although if "lost" is for a good cause then it is not more "lost" , however is clear that the minimum size would be better.

Hi guys,

Please ignore if this has already been discussed but
is there any reason why you can't add a dummy second partition entry in MBR which points to 250MB of non-existing space somewhere above the last physical sector? This way you wouldn't lose 250MB of usable space and still have the second partition record to fool odd BIOSes.

regards,
Andrius

[steve6375]

Hi
I have been reading this post with interest. I am very familiar with USB booting and have written several utilities to partition, format and add boot sectors to them to make instantly bootable UFDs.
First when you say 'bootable' you need to define the device you are trying to emulate. For instance, you can boot MS-DOS from UFD and it will recognise the UFD as either A: or C: (i.e. a floppy disk or hard disk).
In this discussion I presume you are referring to hard disk emulation.

Now the job of a BIOS when attempting to boot from a UFD is to discover if it should boot as a 1.44MB floppy, large floppy drive (ZIP emulation) or hard disk.

The 1.44Mb Floppy drive is usually determined by the USB device ID (reports as a TEAC floppy drive). e.g. The Netac UFD U207 has a 1.44MB emulation mode switch and can appear as a 1.44MB floppy drive to the BIOS. This boots exactly like a floppy drive and uses int 13h DL=0 to access the device.

So the next job for the BIOS is to determine if the UFD is a USB-ZIP or USB-HDD (using int 13h DL=80h). If the BIOS boots the device as a USB-ZIP device it loads the VBR but adds the LBA position of the VBR from any direct access. This can be ascertained because if you boot a USB-ZIP device to MS-DOS (as A: drive) and then access LBA 0 - you get the VBR and not the MBR (which is actually at LBA 0 but no longer accessible once booted due to the BIOS adding the VBR position offset). Thus the device appears to the OS as a large floppy drive (but accessible via int 13h DL=80h).

The BIOS needs to determine whether to boot with this special 'ZIP' translation or not. Different BIOSes use different ways to do this. Some are:
1. Single ptn in 4th position in table (not personally observed this)
2. FAT16 ptn with 64h 32s geometry in MBR table (not sure which of the 4 entries it uses to determine this but likely to be the first entry)
3. Size of device (NOT partition size) - e.g. if <1GB then treated as ZIP else HDD
4. More than one partition (by definition USB-ZIP devices only have one partition table entry).

So, to make a UFD stand more chance of booting from any BIOS AS A USB-HDD DEVICE, you may stand a better chance if it has two partition table entries, is FAT32, and if the device size is 1GB+.

If you want a DOS bootable device to boot as A: however, you stand a better chance using a 512MB UFD, FAT16 using H64 S32 drive geometry. In addition certain bytes in the FAT VBR may need to be set to be a 'floppy' (bytes 15h and 24h).

So it is quite possible that having two or more partitions increased a UFDs chance of booting in hard disk emulation mode.

HTH
Steve

[maanu]

Hi guys,

Please ignore if this has already been discussed but
is there any reason why you can't add a dummy second partition entry in MBR which points to 250MB of non-existing space somewhere above the last physical sector? This way you wouldn't lose 250MB of usable space and still have the second partition record to fool odd BIOSes.

regards,
Andrius

well we dont have to make secondry partiton of 250 MB , i made 47 MB. and it is working fine ,

reporting to online,

made first partition as fat32 of 1.8 GB , mark as active ./ second partiton with 47 MB ,
grub4dos working ( multiboot)
syslinux working . (multiboot)

pending test .

make a clone of existing usb , then clone back on same usb after deleting both partitions . (in morning )

thanks again for ur efforts..

[was_jaclaz]

to which thread r u reffering here ? i mean i only know a makeBS.cmd , and i REALLY dont know how to use it , i double click it ,it just flashes and exits . and it is just above my head how it can be used to multi partition a usb without DRIVER. if that what u meant ...
and also u r mentioning that u integrated it with MKIMG ,where is it ?

just refer me to threads ,i ll read through it first then ask stupid questions

Here:
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=3191
http://www.boot-land...?showtopic=5000
and particularly this:
http://www.boot-land...?...c=5000&st=1

You might be missing a pre-requisite:

Usually you don't double click on a batch file, you open a command prompt or console window and then run the batch from it.

I.E. either Start->All Programs->Accessories->Command prompt
or
Start->Run->cmd.exe [OK]

https://www.kholix.c...ssion_on_window

A command prompt windows will open and you type in it.

You'll have to do a quick crash course here:
http://www.codejacke...command-prompt/

well we dont have to make secondry partiton of 250 MB , i made 47 MB. and it is working fine ,

Sure.

Then you can also try simply deleting it, and see if the stick continues booting.

Then again you can experiment by making it just the "spare" sectors from proper CHS/LBA balancing.
It may be a bit complex for you, but you can have a try at following my original HOWTO:
http://home.graffiti...B/USBstick.html

@andriusst
As well, you could find on that page the answer to your question.

jaclaz

[wimb]

• first head reserved for hidden sectors
• respected cylinder boundary for partition
• standard 2K/XP/2003 MBR code
• optionally apply the HP "MBR hack"
• formatting through 2K/XP/2003 own FORMAT command

@jaclaz
Your approach is perfect, but I was looking for simple GUI programs which can realize this effect.

A disadvantage of Parted Magic is that it makes BOOTMGR-type BootSectors. After Resizing the last sector of first partition is then BOOTMGR-type Bootsector, which does NOT correspond to the first sector of First Partition, which is NTLDR-type as made by HP format tool.

Acronis Disk Director 10 from LiveXP environment is making the correct NTLDR-type last sector, but I have to check if cylinder boundary is taken into account. But it does NOT make the MBR-code, so HP format tool is still desired as first step. But in LiveXP Acronis can resize the first partition and allows to create a second partition on USB-stick

@steve6375
May be you can make an easy to use GUI program which formats USB-stick like the HP Tool and which generates a wellbalanced First Partition with NTFS FileSystem (required for Install of XP from USB) and NTLDR-type BootSector. It would be nice if multipartioning of the USB-stick can be realized as well.
I don't see for me a possibility to create such a program with AutoIt3 ... Otherwise I would have done it already.