259 replies to this topic

[Wonko the Sane]

Very good work.

NOW it starts looking like an actual map.

Still, (cannot say if it possible) I don't like the "mix" between actually "expanding nodes" (and cascading info) and actual connection to "external sources" (like reboot.pro or Wikipedia or whatever).

I would see such a map more like a Wikipedia article (or any academic work) where in the text there is a reference number and a link to footnotes and from them you get eventually to the source.

In other words, It would be better if all info are inside the map (in a summed up version) and the external links were only for really "deeper delving" peeps.

Another thing that may be useful, would be some kind of reference (to allow for easier communication/comments).
As an example, this:
Booting->Vooting via USB->different BIOSes see USB ...->device type ->super-floppy->text contains a "strange sounding" (to me) "hard disk that has removable media"

If we had - not unlike the WBS (Work Breakdown Structure) commonly used in project management - a numbering structure like:
Booting 1 ->Voting via USB 1.3->different BIOSes see USB ...1.3.3 ->device type 1.3.3.2 ->super-floppy 1.3.3.2.1 ->text
It would be easier to address a "point" on the map, and I could ask you:
What do you mean by the text note on node 1.3.3.2.1?

Also, since it's work in progress, it would be nice to have a "map version", as there s the concrete risk that someone finds a problem or gives a suggestion on release m and you are already onto version n, something that is likely to create communication problems.


Wonko

[sambul61]

Most of the necessary information on the boot process has now be integrated in the map.

Great undertaking!

I thought, your intent to educate others would vanish soon after learning enough to proceed with some practical task at hand, like repairing your PC. You went farther than that...

Some suggestions for you to consider, as you go:

- Make the graph auto centered on screen, use Shadow or Block Color Change instead of frame for a selected item (if these features are available)
- Add Horizontal Scroll Bar to avoid difficulties with reading the Map's scaled down version
- Separate Sources, Definitions and Usage instructions from Info on Booting itself (left and right sides, top and bottom, or using footnotes, etc.)
- Change Booting From USB to Booting From Media section. Branch it on various media types (Internal SATA/IDE/SSD Drive, CD/DVD, USB Flash/HD/Card, Network,...), explain differences. Sha0 among others posted some practical info on booting (start from this post, and also info in this thread, and agni's post). Its value is in detail, gained from personal experience, while other pubs seldom expose practical details. Its also limited by that experience of course.
- Adding Make Bootable Media section may be useful for practical purposes of preparing USB Thumbs/Cards, Multiboot HD/DVD, and such
- Adding Make Bootable Environment section to demonstrate practicality of Win PE/Bootable Linux Distros for OS installation, repair and migration to physical and virtual environments
- Adding Boot Enablers section to inform about Bootloaders, Boot Managers, popular Boot Time Drivers, and similar tools and techniques

Its a comprehensive and involving process to prepare such complex yet brief document, but personally rewarding and extremely useful for others if done on a sound level.

[LeMOGO]

Still, (cannot say if it possible) I don't like the "mix" between actually "expanding nodes" (and cascading info) and actual connection to "external sources" (like reboot.pro or Wikipedia or whatever).

I don't understand what you mean.

I would see such a map more like a Wikipedia article (or any academic work) where in the text there is a reference number and a link to footnotes and from them you get eventually to the source.

Text is coming. Remember at the end of day, the objective is to lay out a LOGIC that is visually easy to follow AND comprehensive.

In other words, It would be better if all info are inside the map (in a summed up version) and the external links were only for really "deeper delving" peeps.

That's the plan. It's just that all these bits of text take awhile to incorporate, and I have to place them in some form of logic, which requires a bit of thinking. We're on the same page (agree).

Another thing that may be useful, would be some kind of reference (to allow for easier communication/comments).
As an example, this:
Booting->Vooting via USB->different BIOSes see USB ...->device type ->super-floppy->text contains a "strange sounding" (to me) "hard disk that has removable media"

If we had - not unlike the WBS (Work Breakdown Structure) commonly used in project management - a numbering structure like:
Booting 1 ->Voting via USB 1.3->different BIOSes see USB ...1.3.3 ->device type 1.3.3.2 ->super-floppy 1.3.3.2.1 ->text
It would be easier to address a "point" on the map, and I could ask you:
What do you mean by the text note on node 1.3.3.2.1?

Point taken. Very good suggestion. Implemented.

Also, since it's work in progress, it would be nice to have a "map version", as there s the concrete risk that someone finds a problem or gives a suggestion on release m and you are already onto version n, something that is likely to create communication problems.

Thought of that, but I keep moving things around as I think. It is still a compendium of facts (in some logical fashion), but when I start writing the logic, I will have the final structure. Some things in the back of my mind I have not even added yet.
Versionning at this stage is almost impossible because I do not currently have the ability to save the document and make it a download. If it proves to be needed, I will pay the piper and make the different versions a download to see versionned map. I actually already have the expensive mindmap software from a certain company, but it would not have allowed others to see the progress. The download to view version format is only useful when things are stable and worth downloading to save as reference. This is work in progress, and it's the only tool that enables live viewing, and I am adding all the time.
The other problem is that, like most of these "free" software that are not really free, features such as "save to desktop" are disabled until you pay for "6 months" of service if you want to save the "free" map.
This coming week will probably have versionning implemented (maybe).

[LeMOGO]

Great undertaking!

I thought, your intent to educate others would vanish soon after learning enough to proceed with some practical task at hand, like repairing your PC. You went further than that...

I like what's happening here. I just did not know it existed. I'm part of this community for life.

Some suggestions for you to consider, as you go:

- Make the graph auto centered on screen, use Shadow or Block Color Change instead of frame for a selected item (if these features are available)
- Add Horizontal Scroll Bar to avoid difficulties with reading the Map's scaled down version

It should be auto centered by default. You can click, hold your mouse, and drag (no need for scrolling).
I have the color thing in mind, I just have not come up with a scheme yet. We need something like a color for definitions, another for limits, another for warnings...
Something like that. There is also the ability to integrate icons. We just need a standard for consistency. If you can think of one...

- Separate Sources, Definitions and Usage instructions from Info on Booting itself (left and right sides, top and bottom, or using footnotes, etc.)

These are actual branches that have not yet been added. Coming soon...

- Change Booting From USB to Booting From Media section. Branch it on various media types, explain differences. Sha0 posted quite useful practical info on booting (see link in my above post and also info in this thread, and agni's post). Its value in detail, gained from personal experience, while other pubs seldom expose practical details. Its also limited by that experience, not "absolute", but useful.
- Adding Make Bootable Media section may be quite useful to your Map for practical purposes.

Will do...

Thank you for the suggestions.

[sambul61]

As you add more to your Map, I'm adding more and more to my above Suggestions post. Its always work in progress for everyone... At some point would be nice to have Member Editable Version somewhere similar to Wikipedia approach.

[LeMOGO]

As you add more to your Map, I'm adding more and more to my above Suggestions post. Its always work in progress for everyone... At some point would be nice to have Member Editable Version somewhere similar to Wikipedia approach.

I thought of that. I don't quite know how it would work because it might create confusion as the very thing you are working on might be moved by someone else, and without "live" central communication, it will be difficult.
For now, I will do my best to incorporate suggestions in keeping with the objectives.

[LeMOGO]

I will try to implement a community version in the near future. My only requirement is that you use the same user name as your reboot.pro. The collaboration feature requires email in the control panel for me to add someone as collaborator, so anyone interested in the community version of the map will have to PM me an email address.

Have a nice day.

[Wonko the Sane]

I don't understand what you mean.

I mean:

• I do like/understand the way nodes in C.3.3 are arranged, with the external link set last as C.3.3.7
• I don't like the way C.3.5 is arranged with the external link set "in the middle", and I still don't find the C.3.5.2 node a "valid" node, (with all due respect to Steve6375 and to his approach of course )
• additionally, I lied , and also don't like the fact that node C.3.3 contains an external link to Wikipedia

I.e. I would change the text of node C.3.3 to simply

different BIOSes see USB devices at boot time based on

and remove the wikipedia link, then add a C.3.3.8 node titled "reference to Wikipedia article" with the link.

Same for node C.3.3.1 size, creating a C.3.3.1.5 titled "reference to PCGuide"....

In my mental map, the info represented is in the "main" part of the document and all sources/external references are "at the bottom", in other words the document is "self-standing" even when and if the external source vanishes...

Of course if this is just because of the work in progress status, it's only a note for future refining.

Small typo on C.3.5.1: mu->my


Wonko

[LeMOGO]

In my mental map, the info represented is in the "main" part of the document and all sources/external references are "at the bottom", in other words the document is "self-standing" even when and if the external source vanishes...

There is a general reference section. These are context sensitive references, some meant to be of help to noobs, some for me to remember to integrate something. I will include more details later in the aim of completeness, so the document can be free standing. I have that in mind, but to worry about it right now would be too much work, hence the links. I will reread everything from the angle of not knowing anything and fill in the blanks, explain jargon & concepts ...

All the requested editions have been made. Most were relics from the early stages when I wanted to make sure I do not forget. I have not really gone over it yet, so I'm counting on readers to point these things out. At some point I will go over the whole things and try to correct all this. For now, please point them out.

Thank you.

[Wonko the Sane]

NO prob. Believe me I do understand the amount of work and time needed to create somehting "organized".

I have some GOOD news , which unfortunately may turn out as BAD news (or more work for you).

News are:
Mike Gonta (and his aeBIOS) are riding again

Good news:
Now something can be understood as it is actually written/documented.

Bad news:
An entire new branch may soon open for "The map", which would in itself still good news, but it implies a lot of more work for you.

http://aebios.com/

Past reference:
http://reboot.pro/11279/
http://reboot.pro/6546/ <- this one contains also some more info - not aebios related - that may find it's place on the map.
http://www.911cd.net...showtopic=21525
http://www.911cd.net...pic=21157&st=21


Wonko

[sambul61]

LeMOGO

Now try make your reader figure out, what AEBIOS is good for. Actually, referencing Reboot Search feature may be a good idea.

See, its a lot easier to give a link to someone else's concerns about how to use this peace of code and why, than actually understand and try explain to others what's it for. Now sift through thousands of trash boxes to figure it out - some argue its educational. They even insist you do that! They don't use links to illustrate their own thoughts - they collect links instead of thoughts.

It usually takes 3-5 sentences with examples to explain basics and justification of any complex concept. But if one doesn't understand it herself, to look smart and well informed she just throws a bunch of links. Master the art to use Google search to present herself as a super knowledge holder.

[LeMOGO]

@wonko
Thank you. I intend to keep adding.

@sambul61
I understand perfectly what you mean, and it is out of that very need that I started these documents.
I'll have to pay the price to figure it out, and pay the second price of making it plain, then the 2rd price of making it simple. I've been around computers long enough to be able to easily make sense of things, but for someone like me, some of it should not have taken so much time. You're right, it's a lot of sifting through for very little yield when a few well crafted sentences would have sufficed.

[Wonko the Sane]

It usually takes 3-5 sentences with examples to explain basics and justification of any complex concept. But if one doesn't understand it herself, to look smart and well informed she just throws a bunch of links. Master the art to use Google search to present herself as a super knowledge holder.

Who is "herself" and "she"?

Should by any chance be referred to Wonko (the Sane), you have it wrong, I can guarantee he is a "he" and not a "she".

Wonko would also like to thank you for yet another sign of appreciation of what he thoughtlessly posts, using methods that you do not approve.

You could add this concept to your signature , this way you will save quite a lot of time to re-write the same things over and over.



Wonko

[sambul61]

Wonko

I don't understand why would you suggest to include aebios in this Map without providing any justification? The links you give contain mostly exclamations and of topic remarks. The Map author is already overloaded with Map development activity requiring huge sifting effort. If you don't know what aebios is good for, why distract others attention - to promote yourself? This feels unfair. Given the scale of required work, it seems mandatory to accompany any suggestion with brief justification of its usability and applicability to the topic, unless it's obvious (like section titles of this forum). Its clear, to be practical such Map should contain references to only major accomplishments in Boot field.

What (pdbios / aebios) is good for?

I presume it is an evolution/derivative of AEBIOS...

Mike Gonta (the Author ), like many good guys active in the "Assembly Field" is (NOT surprisingly) as economical (please read as "thrifty" ) with words describing his creations as he is with actual bytes

One example: on some torrent trackers there are very strict rules on how an uploaded torrent must be described, tested and illustrated, before it's presented to the public. They are aimed at protecting users not only from neglect and disrespect resulting in fiscal losses for the tracker's owner, but also from all kind of harm, including PC damage, wasting time and precious bandwidth quota. Knowingly promoting a "fake idea" for own benefit is no different from posting a fake torrent.

[Wonko the Sane]

I don't understand why would you suggest to include aebios in this Map without providing any justification? The links you give contain mostly exclamations. The Map author is already overloaded with Map development activity requiring huge sifting effort. If you don't know what aebios is good for, why distract others attention - to promote yourself? This feels unfair.

Actually the only one that has to understand and judge whether info about BIOS extensions are to be added to "The map" is it's Author, LeMOGO, and I am not bound to give any justification about anything to anyone, let alone to you.

Thank you anyway for the usual kind words that you never fail to welcome my contributions with.

It is obvious - and a known fact - that I have no idea what aebios (and more generally BIOS extensions) is/are, that - more generally - I know nothing about booting matters, and that I usually post completely unrelated things on purpose with the only scope of confusing people, so there is really no need to remark this at each and every of my posts, which seems like being your main activity on the board.

I may even put a disclaimer to that effect in my signature.


Wonko

[sambul61]

A promised "community version" of the Map presumes everyone is a judge, with "sanity" and "justification" being major criteria. Hence, some justification of any proposal is expected. You mentioned aebios, yet seems to know nothing about its features and usability, except now saying it might be a BIOS Extender.

And NO, its a forum conversation, addressed to everyone, not only to the thread author. When you look at 2000+ visitors attached to this forum anytime, can you honestly say, they will benefit from an empty post offering merely links to "talk of nothing" threads? How offering such posts can contribute to your "expert" image? Its not just about writing style, but attitude, how we treat others. Is it so hard to briefly explain why your proposed software title or topic is to be included, how it fathers the Boot concept, how a user may benefit from it, compare to other similar solutions?

[Wonko the Sane]

I may even put a disclaimer to that effect in my signature.

Done.


Wonko

[sambul61]

Wonko

I'm sure you also want the board to easy burden for less experienced users, who are hardly able to filter a usable idea from tons of "around the topic" usual crap. Contrary to popular believe, a newbie doesn't have to torture himself and waste time to learn something useful. In fact, college education is all about presenting already filtered by a teacher useful knowledge, and all "practice" is then centered around practicing theories that are proven to work. I give this as example because its the most thought through by specialists effective method of practical knowledge sharing.

And certainly you can look at things once in a while from a different or someone else's prospective. How it can harm? And NO, repeating the same won't change a thing, the change ideally should come from within.

[LeMOGO]

c'mon, people, let's cool it and focus on the work.
There is a lot more work to do. It may not look like it, but I am constantly adding, if you just press F5, you will see that I am WHILE you are reading.
It's a lot of work to add all these bits of information and I have to think it through in logical terms. It's a lot of work and I found myself starting to be sloppy (which is unlike me) last night because I was so tired and sleepless. Fatigue will get the best of anyone. I need as much help as I can get to complete this astronomic project. Let's focus on the work at hand and please, please, please, let's be patient and tolerant with each other, follow my advice in this post, keep your focus, be pleasant, and, let's help others (the main objective).

[Wonko the Sane]

c'mon, people, let's cool it and focus on the work.
There is a lot more work to do. It may not look like it, but I am constantly adding, if you just press F5, you will see that I am WHILE you are reading.
It's a lot of work to add all these bits of information and I have to think it through in logical terms. It's a lot of work and I found myself starting to be sloppy (which is unlike me) last night because I was so tired and sleepless. Fatigue will get the best of anyone. I need as much help as I can get to complete this astronomic project.

Yep, but you should take it easy, it is a goal of gargantuan proportions and you dont' have (yet) a deadline.
Additionally many ideas/concepts do need to be slept upon a night or two.

Let's focus on the work at hand and please, please, please, let's be patient and tolerant with each other, follow my advice in this post, keep your focus, be pleasant, and, let's help others (the main objective).

Rest assured that I am being as tolerant and patient as I can (and even more) and perfectly focused (of course in my perverted mind ).

I am also being much more pleasant then usual ( by istinct I tend to eat doves RAW ), no prob on my side.

I am only afraid to "feed" you with too many info , maybe you should say when you are at a standpoint and are ready for additional info.

Do not fall for "overload", noone is after you, and you have all the time in the world....


Wonko

[sambul61]

We should keep in mind that the author may have other deadlines and things to do. I know, in this scenario one is urged to close the deal fast and move on. But this topic is kind of hard to crack that way.

So, LeMOGO pls sleep well, you may return to this work as you have time. Its simply too much to read and get familiar with, especially trying to compress everything into definitions, logic and usability concepts - they are so scattered around, and some methods require practicing to appreciate.

Ideally, if our developers can help, it would go a lot easier, since no-one can present product usability better than its developer.

[LeMOGO]

@wonko

dude! c'mon!
I can't believe you ACTUALLY changed your signature! c'moooooon!

[Wonko the Sane]

dude! c'mon!
I can't believe you ACTUALLY changed your signature! c'moooooon!

Why not?

We have almost the same effect while saving a lot of work to sambul61.

It seems to me like a very clean way to deal with the issue.

Of course sambul61 is still perfectly free to continue his battle to "better" me and the quality of my contributions, but this way he is reminded about the fact that it won't work and all other people can learn the complete unusefulness and futility of anything I post from me directly, and I save the time otherwise needed to reply to the senseless comments and to justify my posts.

I find it a good enough solution, and anyway it is my signature, and I am quite satisfied with it.
Unfortunately it breaks Rule #5 (just like yours ).
It doesn't break Rules #7 and #12 UNlike some other people's attitude.

I hope that both you and me are allowed to multi-line signatures, as they are both for a good cause .


Wonko

[LeMOGO]

can't help but

[sambul61]

LeMOGO

Amending the Map structural proposals given in this post, here are extra once:


Add Special Boot Cases branch with sub-branches:

a) Boot from Virtual Media (various images)
c) Boot in Virtual Environments (QEMU, VPC, VMWare, VB, Virtual Server concepts structure - detaching work environment from HW, virtual systems delivery & boot via network)
d) Boot and System Migration (trends in Systems Deployment, and how they affect the ways to adjust & ability to boot a migrated non-virtual system)
e) High Availability System concepts (fast & minimum config boot, boot from ROM, immediate availability after start)
f) Network Non-Virtual Boot (now shown as a separate branch)