Jump to content











- - - - -

Need Help Setting Up UEFI DUET On Alienware M14X R1

Started by Guest_AnonVendetta_* , Mar 04 2015 06:51 AM

  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#26 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:54 AM



The MBR is first absolute sector of the disk or CHS 0/0/1 or LBA 0.

Get (more than a "normal" Hex Editor), a "Disk Editor", i.e. a Hex Editor that has the capability of directly accessing a disk sector, (while most hex editors are also disk editors, not all of them are).
My personal suggestion of course is for good ol' Tiny Hexer, in which you can use my little MBR template/Structure viewer:
http://reboot.pro/to...-hexer-scripts/

BUT, you are right, essentially the MBR has 4 (four) main parts:

  1. 0-439 Code
  2. 440-445 Disk Signature (+unused byte)
  3. 446-509 Partition Table
  4. 510-511 Magic bytes 55AA

and since what you have to do is to just copy first 440 bytes, you don't really need a disk editor, you can use *any* tool that has direct disk access, such as dd or dsfok, though you may need to copy the MBR (512 bytes or one sector) to a file, overwrite the first 440 bytes and then deploy back the file to the MBR in a single 512 byte chunk.

:duff:
Wonko

 


#27 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:27 PM

I'm not too skilled with command line softwares like dd or dsfok, so I think I'll go with a hex editor instead. I just finished opening my primary drive to have a look-see, although being careful not to edit anything. Google reveals that WinHex is one of the best for Windows, and of pro quality, used by forensics analysts. I'm pretty sure it can directly open/edit disks, it has the option in its' menus. I also found 010 Editor, it's not free, but it seems to be the only one I found that works on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Most of the others are OS-specific. Speaking of which, you seem to be a tech consultant, with experience in forensics. Mind dropping a few examples of some professional-level software you use?

 

EDIT: If Google is correct, there are 512 bytes in a physical sector, or 4096 bytes on an Advanced Format drive. Not sure which mine is, I'll have to check. But I'm wondering, since only 440 bytes need to be copied, what about the rest? Would it be empty/zeroed out, or what? Surely something must go there. It also looks pretty strange viewing numbers/letters in a hex editor (to me), next I'll have to figure out how many of these things represent a certain number of bytes. I've always known for a long while that hex editing are mainly for binary editing, but never bothered to use one. Messing around with debuggers like OllyDbg and trying to breakpoint exes while they're running only resulted in crashing/freezing, so I didn't proceed any further along that line.


Edited by Enigma83, 27 March 2015 - 01:20 PM.

#28 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:22 PM

I suggested you Tiny Hexer.

You normally don't use cannons to shoot at flies. 

Though most probably X-Ways WinHex is the best ever value for the money that you can have, as it is in my experience an excellent program, it is something that you don't really *need* and that certainly you don't need to copy 440 bytes to a MBR.

 

Conversely, WinHex (and Tiny Hexer and conversely all disk editors) are very good at "drilling big holes" in a disk in the hands of someone that has not the needed background/experience. :ph34r:

 

If you are not familiar with command line, use HDhacker:

http://dimio.altervi.../eng/index.html

to make a backup of the MBR to file, then edit the file (almost *any* editor, as long as it can use hex, would do) and then restore the modified MBR.

The MBR is the first sector of the relevant \\.\PhysicalDriven.

 

 

:duff:

Wonko


#29 cdob

cdob

    Gold Member

  • Expert
  • 1469 posts

Posted 27 March 2015 - 03:42 PM

I'm not even going to bother trying this out in VirtualBox anymore, since (even if it does work), there is still no guarantee that it will work on my hardware.

It's nice to learn small steps at a virtual machine. Real hardware is the next step.
 

Is there any reason why syslinux.exe cant be used as opposed to syslinux64.exe?

syslinux64.exe is recommended at a 64 bit (PE) windows. A default 64 bit boot.wim won't run syslinux.exe
syslinux.exe may work too, try it.
The example refers to Windows 7, Windows 8 is different...
Syslinux can be installed from another OS too.
 

So it sounds as if the first first 440 bytes of gptmbr.bin need to be copied to the first sector of the HDD in a hex editor

Yes, that's it.
 

Where did you get the floppy image from?

It's a image from 1.44 floppy at post #10 http://reboot.pro/to...pt/#entry181899
However this was created at running EFI mode, read the GPT partition was known to current running windows.
In your case, you have to build/adjust the bcd partition part.
Boot windows from a external media and run bcdboot or bcdedit.
Do you have a external windows boot media in the meantime?
One, two free USB flash would be nice.
 

And how to copy the above lines to the IMG

The lines goes to syslinux.cfg at syslinux partiton.
 

But I'm wondering, since only 440 bytes need to be copied, what about the rest?

Keep the rest, do not change this.
 

You normally don't use cannons to shoot at flies.

:thumbsup:

#30 cdob

cdob

    Gold Member

  • Expert
  • 1469 posts

Posted 29 March 2015 - 07:04 AM

One, two free USB flash would be nice.


Install tinaocore to a USB stick and try to boot.
Does tinaocore works at a Alienware M14X R1?

Windows 8.1 does boot from a BIOS/GPT machine, this is plain BIOS without tinacore.
Shut down fails, disable fast startup.
http://www.eightforu...indows-8-a.html
Reboot is possible.

#31 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 30 March 2015 - 03:15 AM

@ cdob: Why are you quoting and responding to yourself?

 

I haven't tested yet, I'm still clearing some things up.

 

But I did do a bit of research, there appears to be 2 primary methods for booting DUET. The first is what you suggested, syslinux in the GPT protective MBR, and Syslinux installed into the EFI partition. The 2nd approach is on Rod Smith's website (titled "A BIOS to UEFI Transformation", or something like that). There is also a 3rd approach, EDK or whatever, but I've read it only supports IDE mode, not AHCI.

 

I managed to destroy my MBR and partition table last night, messing around with Tiny Hexer and HDHacker, had to reinstall 7, but luckily already had all my personal stuff backed up on a friend's external HDD.

 

I'm a bit busy right now, more on all this later.


#32 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 30 March 2015 - 11:39 AM

Success!

 

DUET is now installed and Windows is installed. AHCI is activated in the BIOS. Disk Management/DiskPart gives confirmation of a GPT disk and an EFI partition, the EFI is also populated with all the usual Windows boot files you would find on a real UEFI system.

 

However, I followed Rod Smith's approach on his website ("A BIOS To UEFI Transformation") as opposed to what cdob and alexanderq suggested. My plan was to try out different methods, and it happens that Mr. Smith's worked flawlessly and the first time around. I had to deviate a bit from his instructions, to make up for my lack of a USB.

 

I will post back later today with a more detailed and proper post, I'm only here now because Wonko seems to be be on the forums around this time (afternoon in Italy right now, approx 4:45AM for me on the US West Coast).


Edited by Enigma83, 30 March 2015 - 11:40 AM.

  • milindsmart likes this

#33 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:04 PM

... I'm only here now because Wonko seems to be be on the forums around this time (afternoon in Italy right now, approx 4:45AM for me on the US West Coast).

Why/what? :w00t:

What do you expect, real-time acknowledgment of you post for the record?  :dubbio:

 

Fine :fine: you are officially the first one to have reported success in installing DUET today on reboot.pro.  :1st:

 

I will later print the Diploma and post it.

 

:duff:

Wonko


#34 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 30 March 2015 - 12:38 PM

 

I will later print the Diploma and post it.

Done :), please find it attached.

 

:duff:

Wonko

Attached Thumbnails

  • enigma83.jpeg

  • milindsmart likes this

#35 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 30 March 2015 - 03:50 PM

Hah, very funny, that put a grin on my face. I can already deduce that you're somewhat like me (sarcastic and humorous, but not so much of a prick/asshole as myself).

 

But seriously, no I didn't expect a real-time response, I simply posted knowing that that time of day is the time you're generally online (given the time zone differences), so I figured I would throw something out there, figuring either you or cdob would post.

 

I'm sure not too many on this board have posted about getting DUET to work, surprised I'm officially the first one to report success.

 

I'm not quite ready to end this thread this thread just yet though. Figured I'd leave it open to general discussion by the community, instead of marking as solved or W/E the equivalent is here.


  • milindsmart likes this

#36 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 30 March 2015 - 04:14 PM

I'm sure not too many on this board have posted about getting DUET to work

Indeed. :)
 

... surprised I'm officially the first one to report success.

You shouldn't be surprised, in the last few years the number of people taking courses in this specific division has been very small and - as often happens - they tend to leave the UNI without ever getting graduated.

The nice twist is that usually after coming here for advice most people do not listen to the advice given, show all their ignorance and misconceptions/misinformation on the matter at hand and then suddenly give up, never returning, whilst you, while still not listening to the given advice, did it so in such a surprisingly adamant manner, showing all your ignorance and arrogance with an unprecedented bold attitude and, much more than that, you managed to insist on your initial goal, totally unscathed by the suggestions of the other members, until you reached it.

Your perseverance and dauntlessness needs to be recognized.

:duff:
Wonko
  • milindsmart likes this

#37 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 30 March 2015 - 04:59 PM

As more and more PCs support UEFI, both devs and end users have less of a need to utilize DUET. But there is still many people with pre-UEFI PCs, many of whom could use GPT (for Windows, mostly), via either DUET or milindsmart's method. But I do think milind's approach would have a higher rate of success for most, if not everyone, generally.

 

As for insisting on the DUET way, emulated or not, I wanted to do things in a manner that stayed as close to real UEFI spec as possible (while obviously still having to deviate a bit), and it also gives me an opportunity to play with EFI shells/boot managers/boot loaders that utilize UEFI. And Windows on GPT expects to be running on UEFI firmware, DUET tricks it into seeing what it needs to see. Windows on GPT/BIOS isnt what Windows , and that could cause potential isdues, like Windows not being able to find its' boot file, or an update/service pack either trying to update them or failing to find them. And with the DUET approach I can *also* boot OSes like Linux into either UEFI or BIOS mode (if the need/whim arises). I'm not certain that GPT on BIOS would make that so easy.

 

I know you and milind view DUET as both largely useless and hackish, hence why you advised against it. But for me and others it can still have practical uses. Everything has its' place. As for hackish, it's all a matter of how one defines it. If you ask me, something (in regard to computing, very generally) is hackish if it goes against the standard/conventional way of doing something. I view milind's method as a hack of sorts, for that reason.

 

I *was* listening to advice to the advices given to an extent, and considering different possibilities. I am very much arrogant, my way or the highway type of guy, solitary, and generally dont care what others think of me or what I do. The persistent attitude I've shown is how I am pretty much all the time. Both a strength and a weakness.

 

What you view as my ignorance is better defined as a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is knowing the truth but choosing to ignore it.


#38 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:14 PM

What you view as my ignorance is better defined as a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is knowing the truth but choosing to ignore it.

Well I don't know :dubbio:, ignorance on my dictionary(ies) is defined as:

http://www.merriam-w...onary/ignorance

: a lack of knowledge, understanding, or education : the state of being ignorant

 

http://www.thefreedi...y.com/ignorance

The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

 

lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant

 

the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge or learning.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge)

 

 

Maybe you lack the knowledge about or you are not informed about (i.e. you ignore) the difference between ignorance and ignorant/ignoramus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance

The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult to describe individuals who deliberately ignore or disregard important information or facts. Ignoramus is commonly used in the UK, Ireland, and the US as a term for someone who is willfully ignorant. Ignorance is distinguished from stupidity, although both can lead to "unwise" acts.

 

 

:duff:

Wonko


  • milindsmart likes this

#39 cdob

cdob

    Gold Member

  • Expert
  • 1469 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:27 PM

DUET is now installed and Windows is installed.

Congratulations, good work. Thanks for report.
Unfortunately DUET fails to boot at local testing hardware, a AMD chipset machine.
 

stayed as close to real UEFI spec as possible (while obviously still having to deviate a bit)

A major UEFI feature is NVRAM setttings: boot informations are stored at the motherboard.
False NVRAM settings cause errors too. Testing this would be nice.
Do you have a file EFIVAR.BIN? http://www.insanelym...-8#entry1874797

So, myself, I have the regular GRUB installed, which boots from a GPT disk just fine. I have several options for booting Linux and FreeBSD, and then I have a single option to boot DUET, which boots Windows.

From a practical point of view, this works just fine.


I'm curious: how do you like to add Linux? With or without DUET? 
 

And Windows on GPT expects to be running on UEFI firmware, DUET tricks it into seeing what it needs to see.

Yes, windows requires UEFI to get full features at GPT, e.g. Install windows or fast startup at Windows 8.

#40 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:37 AM

Forum display name name changed (so everyone will know that me and Enigma83 are the same person). Sorry for not posting (cdob), I've been busy lately. Everything has gone well so far, drivers seem to be working fine, Arch Linux installs in UEFI mode. Game performance is essentially the same as before. Everything seems normal. I think I will make a post on the official Alienware forums later about this, so that owners of legacy hardware like myself will know that UEFI will work. And also to make a guide on how to get the M14X R1 working optimally on Windows 8.1/10. Windows 7 was the original OS that was installed this this notebook when it was manufactured in 2011. I'm going to throw in either a 500GB or 1TB SSD next month, as well as a 2 TB drive in the optical disc caddy slot. What I'm buying:

 

http://www.newmodeus...products_id=457

 

http://www.amazon.co.../?tag=hotoge-20

 

http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

This may seem like overkill, but I like to have alot of internal space. Maybe a little more RAM as well (the guy that sold it to me said the motherboard supports up to 16GB, I haven't confimed this yet).


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 03:02 AM.

#41 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 04:08 AM

There *does* seem to be a difference in game performance in the past few days, since I made the conversion from MBR to GPT. Not in every game, mainly MMOs, and it is noticable. Namely, in H1Z1, DayZ Standalone, Arma 2/DayZ Mod, and several others (both online and single player) I get momentary lag spikes. I'm not sure if this is a network connection issue or due to my graphics settings. I am not arrogant enough or ignorant enough to think that a 4 yr old laptop, Alienware or not, can continue to play the latest games on high/ultra or even medium settings in some cases, so graphics settings in each game are adjusted to give reasonable/playable performance. I have serious doubts in regards to whether Grand Theft Auto V, which I recently pre-ordered on Steam and is due out for worldwide release on PC on 4-15, will be playable on my system, even though I do just barely meet the minumum requirements. The lags spikes are characterized by momentary times when my character will simply freeze for a split second, this happens at somewhere between 10 to 30 seconds at a time. And then he will return to normal. At other times it doesnt happen at all. I am using the same video drivers as before, alway the latest, and the same build of Windows 8.1 Pro, with all the latest drivers and Windows Updates installed, and the bare minumum # of needed softwares. I make sure before running any game that no unneeded processes/services are running in the background. Before the switchover, the situation was the same, but with no lag spikes at any time.

 

I am deeply convinced that this is due to drivers rather than to DUET, since if Wonko's assertion is correct that Windows only uses the HAL once the initial booting stages are complete, then UEFI, or lack thereof, should have absolutely no effect in regards to game performance. I'll try rolling back to a slightly older NVIDIA driver, and wait until they release a new one, which is around once per month. Even after 4 yrs, I'm surprised that they still continue to put out regular updates for my card model.


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 04:10 AM.

#42 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 09:24 AM

I've made a new discovery, one that completely invalidates any reason for me to continue using DUET..........my system was UEFI-capable all along, I just didn't know it. It was hidden in the BIOS by the bastards at Dell. And I do mean very well hidden, to the point that you basically have to flash a modded BIOS to enable UEFI. It's well known that manufacturers of notebook PCs typically hide some options in the BIOS from their customers, especially the more advanced stuff like overclocking, etc. In my case, the options to enable UEFI were hidden. I suspect it was because Dell believed that UEFI wouldn't be advantageous to most customers, especially in a 2011 model like mine. Back then UEFI was relatively new and not yet deployed en masse by most manufucturers. So, the logical conclusion is that my hardware was UEFI-capable all along, they simply chose to hide the option to enable it, preventing everyone except the most advanced customers from discovering it (BIOS hackers). Unlocking a BIOS just involves unhiding options that were hidden by the manufacturer, in my case many options. I was astounded by the amount of new, advanced options that showed up after flashing the modded BIOS at http://forum.techinf....html#post12003 (M14xR1_A08_[unlocked]_voltmod_incl_GF116_&_SATA_fix.zip is what I used), which is another variant of the BIOSes at http://forum.techinf...8-sata-fix.html. The BIOS I used also includes a SATA speed fix, Dell's chimp tech crews also apparently saw fit to artificially throttle the SATA speeds in the later versions of the M14X R1 BIOSes. I've already tested with a few tools like CrystalDiskMark, there is a very noticable difference.

 

I tested booting with a few UEFI-capable discs. Arch Linux was the first, using the 'efivar -l' command properly listed the UEFI variables (making sure that I had totally bypassed booting via DUET, for accurate results). Next I'm going to test installing Windows 10 TP, to see if it will install in UEFI mode without DUET. Windows 8.1 BSODed when trying to launch the disc setup in UEFI mode on the first try, the 2nd time I managed to make it to the disk selection/formatting screen, but choosing not to proceed until I could migrate my data to an external HDD. That's an indication that native UEFI may prove to be buggy/flaky for me.

 

I also noticed that there is the presence of a UEFI shell v1 and v2 in Arch's boot disc menu (couldn't find a screenshot to link to), my system can launch shell v1 but not shell v2. And https://wiki.archlin...ning_UEFI_Shell says that "Shell v2 works best in UEFI 2.3+ systems and is recommended over Shell v1 in those systems. Shell v1 should work in all UEFI systems irrespective of the spec. version the firmware follows." Does this mean that I have a pre-UEFI firmware v2.3 system? Perhaps someone with UEFI experience can answer this. I'm not sure what the difference is but plan to look into it.

 

Lastly my BIOS not only seems to have an option that allows UEFI to either be enabled or disabled (disabled is default). But there is another option that allows the user to give preference to legacy boot or UEFI booting mode. If legacy is chosen then UEFI can still be enabled, but any OS installed in legacy mode will have first priority to boot (if any exist) and presumably will be automatically chosen first. If UEFI is chosen then the situation apparently will be the other way around. I'll have to play around to see if it works. I know that Linux can be booted in either legacy or UEFI mode, not sure about Windows. Maybe this option will enable this scenario for Windows? Or is it an all or nothing proposition (if installed in UEFI mode then it must always be used for booting, if installed in legacy mode then it must be used instead)? I ask this because the TechNet article for bcdboot (https://technet.micr...7(v=ws.10).aspx) allows to install the boot files with the variables "UEFI, BIOS, or ALL". UEFI is for UEFI booting, BIOS is for legacy booting, and the 'all' variable installs boot files for *both* booting in either UEFI or legacy mode. The options must be manually entered at a CMD/MS-DOS prompt. This implies that I may be able to choose, considering my BIOS apparently allows for booting in this way.

 

And, if the above really is the case, how can I best set up my system to allow all OSes to boot in either mode (maybe not Windows, I'll see as this discussion moves along). Leaving both options open would be nice, in case of issues.

 

I think I'll make a post on the AW owners forum to let legacy hardware owners (of the M14X R1) know that they can enable UEFI with a modded BIOS, instead of using DUET or milind's approach. Although a admin/mod may very well delete it for referencing/linking to unofficial BIOSes.

 

Thanks in advance!


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 09:31 AM.

#43 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 07 April 2015 - 10:21 AM

More or less (talking of "protected mode" Operating Systems ( i.e. that do not rely on BIOS services and load their own drivers/HAL like Windows NT), booting happens as follows:

Power on/boot->BIOS->MBR->(usually VBR of active partition or boot loader, etc.)->OS Loader->OS (which could not care less about the presence of the BIOS)

Power on/boot->UEFI->Fat volume->OS loader-> OS (which could not care less about the presence of the UEFI)

 

I do not see why it should be not possible to boot the same OS through BIOS or through UEFI, in one the BOOTMGR and the \boot\BCD will be used, in the other the  [EFI system partition]\EFI\Microsoft\Boot\bootmgfw.efi [EFI system partition]\EFI\Microsoft\Boot\BCD, though I fail to see a scope (apart form the fun of it) for wanting that.

A PE 4.x/5.x usually is dual bootable, and this makes sense if it is used to repair the files involved in early booting, but as long as the PE in the chosen boot mode (BIOS or UEFI) can access the internal drive, this won't make a change in most of the other activities one normally performs on a PE, see also:

 https://technet.micr...y/dn293283.aspx

 

Most probably you will need some sort of Hybrid MBR/GPT disk, see this seemingly unrelated post : 

http://reboot.pro/to...linux/?p=191902

which more or less brings up back to square #1.

 

:duff:

Wonko


#44 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 10:35 AM

Normally, on BIOS/MBR systems, if the disk is unpartitioned, Windows setup will create a System Reserved partition, and place its' boot files there, and install Windows on an NTFS volume. A technique to bypass this is to create a single primary partition, format it as NTFS, and mark it as active. Then the Windows setup will place the boot files in the same volume as Windows itself. However, this is only useful if you have MBR partitioning, because of the 4 primary partitions limit. On GPT, it isn't necessary. So......I'm going to try to make things so that Windows can boot into either mode (I know, I know, it's totally unnecessary, messing around just to see if it would work).

 

What I need to know is, for BIOS/UEFI Windows booting to work, do I need to create *both* a System Reserved partition (for BIOS) *and* and EFI partition (for UEFI) for this to work? O r can I just create the EFI for UEFI booting, while allowing Windows setup to place its' boot files in Windows' partition for BIOS/MBR booting? I'm planning to install manually via ImageX, and using bcdboot to create BIOS/UEFI boot files with the 'all' parameter (listed above).

 

I'm sitting in Parted Magic right now, wanting to get the partitioning right the first time. I noticed so I figured I would post before proceeding. A hybrid MBR is out of the question, that seems incredibly complex to create/maintain, even in comparison to DUET, which was a piece of cake (in my situation, anyway).

 

Thanks!


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 10:40 AM.

  • milindsmart likes this

#45 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:14 AM

It now seems (to me) that my above post makes no sense. In the case of UEFI booting, the BIOS will look for a FAT32 ESP. For BIOS booting, it will look for an MBR. Which is why DUET worked, the DUET installer installed Syslinux into the protective MBR (which UEFI is supposed to ignore the contents of and doesn't care about anything in it, since it's only there to protect the GPT partition table from tools that aren't aware of GPT), and installed DUET itself into the ESP. Syslinux merely chainloaded DUET, which then loaded whatever EFI file I wanted.

 

So, I would either need a hybrid MBR (undesirable and very risky), or (just an idea, not sure if it would work) something like a BIOS boot partition (for GRUB2 to boot OSes in BIOS mode on GPT disks). Something would have to chainload GRUB2 in the BBP, whether that something be Syslinux or whatever else in the protective MBR. GRUB2 would then (hopefully) directly chainload my OS loader of choice, and Windows (hopefully) would be none the wiser of how it was booted. And it *should* find *either* its' UEFI or BIOS mode boot files (in the ESP, marked as ESP, boot, and legacy_boot in Gparted), depending on how it was booted (and as long as I use BCDBoot's 'all' parameter).

 

Please, someone let me know if my assumptions are incorrect. Thanks!


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 11:17 AM.

#46 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:51 AM

Yep - again and as said n times by now - you are back to square #1 (actually square #2):

http://reboot.pro/to...r1/#entry191119

 

The originally proposed method is EXACTLY a way to have a GPT disk being seen by a BIOS as a "normally" booting disk while being NOT a Hybrid boot, alternative to the syslinux way and making use of grub4dos instead (reusing an originally sislinux derived MBR code to initiate the BIOS booting and making the tiny volume "invisible" to anything GPT or making it a visible but not in use partition).

 

And - as suggested on the other thread and again here - Gparted may not represent the ideal tool to do this kind of partitioning, as Rod Smith's gdisk might be more accurate. or at least it should be used to verify the results of Gparted partitioning.

 

:duff:
Wonko


#47 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:03 PM

Take a look at the 2nd paragraph and point out, if you will, exactly where it would fail, and why. I'm not saying it's right (it's probably wrong if you say it is), but I'd like to know *why*. I really need to know where the kink in the chain is.

 

And I'm not really back at square 1, I can move on and choose to boot all OSes in UEFI mode. Or, just for the fun of it, I can regard this as a learning experience and take this opportunity to learn how I ca use Milind's approach to boot in BIOS mode, while using the native UEFI capabilities of my board for UEFI booting, since you say his approach can make both boot methods possible on the same disk. Let's make this as complex as possible.

 

What do you have against Syslinux/GRUB2? Just because you prefer Grub4DOS doesn't make it the best, nor does it make my preference of GRUB2 the best. I'm sure any of these loaders can be used for my purposes. I dont see why the BBP mentioned in my last post wont work, since its' intent is to boot GPT on BIOS.

 

GParted may not be ideal, but it's easy enough for me to comprehend given my relative lack of experience, as I learn I will move along to more advanced tools like gdisk.


#48 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:05 PM

What do you have against Syslinux/GRUB2? Just because you prefer Grub4DOS doesn't make it the best, nor does it make my preference of GRUB2 the best. I'm sure any of these loaders can be used for my purposes. I dont see why the BBP mentioned in my last post wont work, since its' intent is to boot GPT on BIOS.

As said I have nothing (really nothing) against either Syslinux or Grub2 (exception made for the confusion they made by renaming Grub2 as Grub of course) and I am not at all into a competition of any kind, see:
http://reboot.pro/to...o-gpt/?p=186493

About the (BTW nice) Syslinux way, please read:
http://jamesbond3142...cgi/BIOSBootGPT
http://www.lightofda...cgi/BIOSBootGPT
the idea (much more correct) is to make a "valid" GPT partition bootable from BIOS (which as said my half@ssed hack can also do, though in a different way), what I offer is (alternatively and NOT "in competition" with any other bootloader/bootmanager) the possibility of reaching "directly" a grub4dos environment (and usually what can be reached from it is limited only by fantasy ;)) ALSO by "inserting" a small partition in a completely "stealth" way from a UEFI/GPT viewpoint without altering (hopefully) the normal functionality of the GPT disk under UEFI.

You came here starting by calling the methods discussed in that thread "not desirable", but in the end you will need to use any of those two, the Syslinux+Grub2 one or the (half@ssed :dubbio:) grub4dos based one (unless you want to use the third option, the hybrid MBR).
 

GParted may not be ideal, but it's easy enough for me to comprehend given my relative lack of experience, as I learn I will move along to more advanced tools like gdisk.

Of course you are welcome to use exclusively GParted :), my advice was (and still is) to at least verify the result of using GParted with gdisk, and of course you are very welcome to ignore it.

 

:duff:

Wonko


#49 Guest_AnonVendetta_*

Guest_AnonVendetta_*
  • Guests

Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:22 PM

I still wonder why my approach wouldn't work, what (technically) prevents it? I'm sure I missed something critical in my reasoning, you see, it makes total sense to me, unless someone is willing to do a blow by blow of why it won't work. I'd like to be able to move on to Milind's approach for both BIOS and UEFI booting (just for the challenge), but can't move myself to do so until I at least understand why my idea won't work.

 

But instead of a direct explanation, give some hints, perhaps something I can try in a VM so as not to endanger my real partitions, so maybe I can figure out the flaws in my reasoning.

 

Thanks!


Edited by AnonVendetta, 07 April 2015 - 02:23 PM.

#50 Wonko the Sane

Wonko the Sane

    The Finder

  • Advanced user
  • 16066 posts
  • Location:The Outside of the Asylum (gate is closed)
  •  
    Italy

Posted 07 April 2015 - 02:47 PM

I guess there is still a misunderstanding of some kind.

 

There is nothing that would not work in "your" idea, exactly because it is THE SAME idea discussed in the given thread, how to boot a Windows system through either BIOS or UEFI from a GPT disk.

Since it is "implied" that a recent Windows will boot through UEFI from a GPT disk, the topic is about different ways to modify the GPT disk in such a way that it allows booting through BIOS also without using a "Hybrid MBR" while keeping "untouched" the UEFI booting capabilities.

 

To further clarify that thread contains:

  1. NO innovative method (actually no method at all) by milindsmart (he wanted to hack BOOTMGR but never finalized the approach/reported success with it)
  2. a not-so-innovative method reported by SaschaWeaver adapted/bettered through the suggestions of other members making use of Syslinux and grub2
  3. a not-so -innovative method half @§§edly developed by yours truly with the cooperation of cdob as an alternative to the above one, making use of grub4dos instead

I am calling them not-so-innovative because set apart a few (clever? :unsure:) tricks with any among Syslinux/memdisk Grub2 or grub4dos, they all revolve around the known concept of the "Vista boot floppy", see:

http://reboot.pro/to...o-gpt/?p=186766

 

:duff:

Wonko


  • milindsmart likes this
Back to Boot from USB / Boot anywhere


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

  1. reboot.pro
  2. → Boot methods & tools
  3. → Boot from USB / Boot anywhere
  4. Privacy Policy
  5. Site policies ·